Talk:List of tornadoes striking downtown areas

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[edit] Definition of "Downtown"

What counts as "downtown"? Does it have to be the central business district, or just the city limits? Ardric47 03:23, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Central business district. It should also be a decent-sized city (at least 50,000 or anchoring a metropolitan area of 100,000). CrazyC83 23:53, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm hesitating to add the F3 Aylmer, Qc tornado to that list, it may miss by the size around the 35,000-45,000 range when the tornado hit the downtown area in 1994. Although it was (before amalgamation to the city of Gatineau in 2001 - which probably gives the Aylmer sector right now somewhere near 50,000) one of the major suburbs of Ottawa - the metro population at that time was close to 1 million in 1994. Meanwhile, the one in Hull, Quebec rated as F1 will be added as in 1999 it was anchoring Ottawa, and it hit in what was according to many locals the second Hull downtown and it was well over 50,000 persons (it was about 65,000 at that - Ottawa metro over 1 million) --JForget 00:26, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Suburbs do not count. It has to hit the central business district. Otherwise there would be many others - including some F4's and F5's - on here. CrazyC83 02:42, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Richmond & Petersburg Tornadoes

Added Richmond and Petersburg VA tornadoes; this data was checked via NCDC storm reports and the Virginia Emergency Management archive of Virginia tornado statistics; the Petersburg tornado is also linked to the Wikipedia article for the 1993 Virginia tornado outbreak.

I did not add the super outbreak tornadoes that struck Xenia, OH and Huntsville, AL; though they passed through part of the CBD I was unable to locate a detailed maps of the precise path to verify this. I think both storms probably warrant inclusion however. Davidals 02:42, 03 October 2006 (UTC)

Based on CrazyC83's criteria, Xenia has well below 50,000 residents (it had 24 000 in 2000)--JForget 20:01, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Evansville tornado

I don't know if it's me, but based on the tornado track, doesn't seem that it hit downtown Evansville - more like the southeastern suburbs which is probably a good 10-15 miles away from downtown. If Evansville is on the list, you might as well add the Birmingham F5's of 1977 and 1998 which were located just a few miles northwest of downtown Birmingham and ditto for the Louisville tornado of 1974 and Tuscaloosa in 2000 and the 1975 Omaha tornado (I've added the 1913 Easter Sunday event that killed 103 and hit the downtown portion before crossing into Iowa). --JForget 20:02, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, the Barrie tornado did not hit downtown in 1985 and the recent tornado in New Orleans, I presume did not hit downtown as well and I'm removing the central Florida tornado as the city does not meet the criteria of 50,000 cities - it has 20,000-25,000 much like Xenia.--JForget 02:38, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Yes; likewise, downtown OKC wasn't hit in May 99 nor was Moore nor is Moore large enough, and I don't think Kenner/New Orleans should be listed either. Evolauxia 06:14, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Globalizing the topic

Since this article is mostly about the United States and Canada, should we rename it to "List of North American tornadoes striking downtown areas"? If not, should i search for European, Australian or world-wide tornadoes that hit any downtown areas? RingtailedFox • Talk • Stalk 18:57, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I would keep the article global, but perhaps separate non-North American events into their own table. I know many European capitals have been directly hit (as was Wash DC in 1814 during the War of 1812) in historic times as have other large cities, and recently London and Hamburg were hit, but I'm not sure if the CBD was hit (particularly for London). "Famous" tornado events have occurred in Calcutta, Tokyo, Moscow, London, Venice, Paris, Utrecht, and Panama City off the top of my head. With historical events, it might take some digging to determine if it hit downtown and what would constitute downtown/CBD. Evolauxia 01:23, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Oooh! That would be much appreciated if you could dig information on those cities, especially the historical ones. Although i have the Utrecht Tornado covered fairly well, I would love it if you could also find information on that one, just to confirm or update information i already have on that historical tornado. RingtailedFox • Talk • Stalk 00:20, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I will try to find more information on non-North American tornadoes. Evolauxia 02:38, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I found some location information on a few international large city tornadoes, using The Tornado: Nature's Ultimate Windstorm (ISBN # 0-8061-3258-2) by Thomas Grazulis as a reference. I hope this info is useful in at least clarifying the status of some of these events -
- Moscow outbreak of 1904: apparently, one of the two tornadoes to hit the city was relatively close to the city center, and exposed the bed of the Moscow River briefly.
- Tokyo tornado of 1964: hit the southwestern suburbs, so probably not a CBD tornado.
- Venice tornado of 1970: overturned a water bus in the St. Marks basin, killing 22 people.
- Panama City tornado of 1992: hit the southeast edge of the city. Possibly not CBD.
According to a page I once read on TORRO's website (www.torro.org.uk), the London tornado of 1091 hit the church at "St. Mary Le Bow"...I have never been able to determine if this is actually what is now Marylebone. If so, then that storm could be classified as a CBD tornado, I think, although of course there was much less there at the time. CapeFearWX 04:24, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Erroneous downtown/CBD listings

Several listings near large cities or even within city limits but not not striking the central business district downtown (concentration of mid- to high rises) are being added and should be removed. We'll have to watch this page and confirm that downtown areas are indeed hit. Evolauxia 22:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

I've added the reference from Hull - but it's in French only, no English sources were available and Environment Canada has a poor record for making available tornado information to the public.
Second of all, I don't think the London tornado hit the CBD as I don't think it hit the City nor Canary Wharf, which I believe are London's CBD's
And finally, was last weekend's St. Louis tornado inside the downtown limits - I don't exactly its limits but from this map [1] it did but I will wait before adding St. Louis to the list which would the 4th ever to strike downtown.JForget 23:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for responding with the citation so quickly, French is fine (I can read it, but you translated it too) as long as it verifies the event. I'm not sure about the London tornado either; and I don't think the Hamburg tornado last summer was in the downtown either but am not sure. The St. Louis tornado is iffy so I've avoided adding it, I'm intimately familiar with the area, it's not the core of the CBD but it is Midtown with mid/high-rises and large public facilities. I'm not averse to adding it, as it was in a heavily built up area of a major city and struck a hospital and parking garage within said city. Luckily it wasn't as bad as so many of the other tornadoes in the city have been (an argument could be made of more than 4 striking downtown). Evolauxia 02:35, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I reviewed the path map and added the St. Louis tornado per the concentration of mid-high rises, large public buildings, hospitals, parking garage, urban expressways, and urban university campus in the area. The tornado struck Midtown, it was close but did not strike what is considered downtown or at least strictly the downtown core (there are no hard delineations unless you consult municipal maps and that brings in the arbitrariness); Midtown Manhattan is not Downtown, but it would obviously be suitable for listing if a tornado struck there.
The question arises of (*) what constitutes a central business district/downtown and why do we care, (*) why are making such a listing; is it an area of mid-high rises and other large buildings within a large urban area or is it strictly the area designated CBD/downtown (which is most often where concentration of large buildings is, but not always, and in many cases is what we're trying to capture by using CBD/downtown)?. It does complicate urban tornado climatology and discerning what is and is not an area that should be considered CBD/downtown when making listings. That is complicated further by tornadoes in the past when cities were different and there weren't the tall buildings that have existed since the late 19th century. Certainly, some of these events should be considered downtown tornadoes and are listed unchallenged, others might have to be examined.
We really should (1) standardize things, and (2) state all the criteria explicitly on the main page, and then (3) be as diligent as possible in enforcing that. I don't object to a list of notable exceptions of destructive tornadoes within large city limits or metropolitan areas (especially exceptionally highly destructive/deadly or largest cities and capitals), though the CBD areas should be the focus and there is no shortage of work there. I'll examine the methodologies of the SPC study, Fujita studies, and other urban tornado studies. There is also the question of smaller, "insignificant" tornadoes, if the list doesn't become unwieldy they're okay, but at some point we may limit to the more damaging, "significant" events.
  1. There should be a minimum population (perhaps different in more distant past), 50,000 - for the core city, not the entire metro - seems reasonable *if* there is an area of tall buildings, large public buildings or is otherwise obviously built up urban. It doesn't have to be a metropolis or contain skyscrapers but should be a substantial city (which varies from country to country and region to region; but using the tall, urban buildings or perhaps population density mitigates this). Utica, IL in April 2004 and Greesnburg, KS in May 2007 certainly had downtown areas wiped out, but aren't big cities.
  2. Most obviously, we need to remove some of the ambiguity of what constitutes a CBD / downtown area, work towards an agreement, and be as explicit but still generally applicable (i.e. flexible) as possible. Again, we may have to adjust for tornadoes preceding the advent of mid-high rises (which varies from place to place, from late 18th century to present). A concentration of such tall building, large public buildings, and other similar urban markers are what I consider as pertinent to be added, but the details need hashing out, and it does complicate things vs just juxtaposing a path map over a designated CBD / downtown.
  3. We also need strict sourcing for *every* event, citing the same source repeatedly when applicable, but *every* event should be clearly, authoritatively sourced.
There is also the matter of large venues of concentrated people, be it sports stadiums, races, concerts, festivals, backed up highway traffic, etc; a large death toll is only a matter of time, and it may or may not involve a CBD. Eventually I'd like to expand the tornado climatology article and more specifically the tornado histories of certain areas. Evolauxia 16:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Downtown

I see this has been discussed before, but I don't think the definition of downtown is correct in this article. I thought this page was dedicated to "tornadoes that hit relatively large cities" and not just defined as "tornadoes that hit the downtowns of large cities"? For example, the Huntsville tornado hit a section of south Huntsville but not really near the downtown area...I think that if we include something like this then we need to include something like the Oklahoma City tornado. I mean, that F5 got pretty close to the city, practically going around it. The Huntsville tornado should def. be in there, but I was just thinking that maybe we should review the terms for being listed in this article? Love each other, or perish. ~Auden 06:35, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Huntsville and similar should not be included, this listing only regards downtown/CBD of large cities. Some of us try to remove erroneous listings but it's a never ending task. Evolauxia 06:01, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, then I agree. I'll try to edit some things myself. Love each other, or perish. ~Auden 20:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Original research

The problems of determining what constitutes a central business district/downtown area and what size city counts as a threshold have been elaborated on above. Some kind of stricter standardization is still in order. Addition of events not meeting the "consensus" so far laid out continually require purging. Given the ambiguities involved, it occurs to me that the list may be in breach of original research. This is so even when an event is well sourced, if that source does not specifically state that a downtown area was hit. The very act of determining here on Wikipedia the characteristics of what is added possibly opens up NOR issues. Thoughts?

In the meantime, vigilance is required on verifying new events as they are added if this list is to be of encyclopedia/almanac standard. Evolauxia (talk) 10:12, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Louisville - January 29, 2008

I'm not familiar of the exact downtown limits of Louisville, Kentucky but is the University of Louisville located in the CBD limits. I'm asking this because an EF1 tornado touched down on the western side of the campus on January 29, 2008 and based on the location on the second touchdown near U of L, this looks very close to the CBD limits.--JForget 03:39, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Here's the exact locations of the touchdowns and you could see the first two touchdowns are very close to the CBD limits and looks to be much further north then when the 1974 tornado started which was just east of the International Airport or Standiford Field.--JForget 18:22, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tornadoes that hit downtown

I found a web site that list major cities that were hit by a tornado in downtown. It's a partial list but I thought I'd share this with you.[2] Rvk41 (talk) 07:24, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think they've omitted virtually all the F0's on the list, I'm sure if I check the Tornado History Project which has maps, I can find several more F0 tornadoes but that would make the list extremely long.JForget 13:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Take off Dallas and San Antonio!

Dallas, Texas shouldn't be on the list because THE POPULATION WAS WELL BELOW 50,000 IN 1894. That is against the rules!

Also, Tornado History Project is not an accurate source to determine if a tornado strikes a downtown area. San Antonio, Texas should not be on list unless there is proof on another source.


[edit] Missing cases, Europe

If some more Wiki-used SUer could add some notable cases from EU!


1968, F4, Pforzheim (>100 000 Inhabitants), the storm ripped through the city center, leaving one of the most serious examples of skyscaper-damage (blown empty) Scroll down to 1968: http://www.tornadoliste.de/tornadoliste1970.htm http://www.wetterzentrale.de/cgi-bin/webbbs/wzarchive2003_2.pl?noframes%3bread=339356 The european windspeed estimations, which do (other standards of constructions) not follow the eF scale) would NOW uprate it... Very fortunately only two deaths, a wodner.

1973, F3, Kiel (>200 000 inhabitants) http://www.saevert.de/2kieltornado1973.htm One casuality (due do flying debris)

2003, F1 Vienna (>1,5 million inhabitants) Serious damage to inner town districts by a large, but fortunately not too strong tornado http://www.unwetterstatistik.at/analysen/tornados/2003/030513.html The supercell tornado was accompanied by a very serious hail-event in the north of the town (dense hailfall, 6cm diameter)

2003, F1 Graz (250 000 inhabitants). Small tornado path with some damage to the central park and surrounding roofs, a few people severely injured by falling trees. http://www.unwetterstatistik.at/analysen/tornados/2003/030829.html

Graz downtown had at least another (likely) tornado 2004, F1 (downburst not completely ruled out), 2 more cases like that 1998 (F1) (and several reported tornados (in or close to the town) in the last 100 years.) http://www.tordach.org/at

Herfried (www.skywarn.at) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.7.39 (talk) 15:04, 11 June 2008 (UTC)