Talk:List of suicides

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[edit] Proposed Criteria for Inclusion/Means of Classification

Here's what would make sense to me:
A person is worthy to be included by name on the list if:

A: It has been determined that he/she killed him/herself,
  • intentionally (which would eliminate most drug overdoses), and...
  • regardless of extenuating circumstances (the following would still be considered suicides):
    • killing self to avoid capture, arrest, trial, execution, or other fate considered dishonorable (of course)
    • complying with an order to commit suicide (Seppuku, certain cult members, etc.)
    • fanatically attacking an enemy in a way which also directly causes one's own death (public self-detonation, kamikaze pilots/hijackers, etc.)
and...
B: He/she is "notable" enough for there to be a wikipedia article with his/her name as the title,
  • which means if article gets VFD'd and deleted, the name gets removed from list.

If we want to make a separate section for group suicides (which I feel should include the 19 hijackers of Sept. 11, 2001, and the 39 followers of the Marshall Applewhite's "Heaven's Gate" cult, for example) I think it's a good idea.

Also for people whose definite cause of death is disputed but regarded by some as a possible suicide, there should be a separate section too.

So that would give us 3 categories:

  1. Confirmed [individual] Suicides
  2. People whose cause of death is disputed, but regarded by some as possible suicides
  3. Group Suicides [of which the members of each group may or may not be notable enough for inclusion by individual names (i.e. they would be red-links)]

Anybody care to discuss/amend?

— FREAK OF NURxTURE (TALK) 08:57, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

24.10.04

Here's a few:- Charles Eugene Bedaux (1887-1944) Walter Benjamin (1892-1940) John Berryman (1914-1972) Dora de Houghton Carrington (1893-1932) Charmian Clift (1923 -1969) Kurt Cobain (1967-1994) (Harold) Hart Crane (1899-1932) Henry Grew (Harry) Crosby (1898-1929) ?Frances Gumm (Judy Garland) (1922-1969) Tony Hancock, Ernest Miller Hemingway (1899-1961) Philip Heseltine (Peter Warlock) (1894-1930) Robert E. Howard (1906-1936) Michael Hutchence (-1997) 川端康成 (1899-1972) Primo Levi (1919-1987) Ulrike Meinhof (1934 - 1976) 三島由紀夫 (1925-1970) Sylvia Plath (1932-1963) Japanese Olympic swimmer Ryoko Urakami, Alberto Santos-Dumont (1873-1932) Lt John Hanning Speke (1827-1864) Japanese Olympic marathon runner Kokichi Tsuburaya, who took the bronze medal at Tokyo in 1964. Psychologically tormented when injury forced him to miss the games four years later, he committed suicide. The note he left read, simply, "Cannot run any more." He was 27. (Adeline) Virginia Stephen Woolf (1882-1941) Sergey Aleksandrovich Yesenin (1895-1925) Japanese Olympic 80 meter hurdler Ikuko Yoda

(Peter Rout, Sydney)

Known suicides who may fall a bit short in the celebrity department:

  • Lou Tellegen stabbed himself in the chest with a pair of shears seven times.
  • Sir Delves Broughton killed himself after being cleared of a murder charge
  • Hughes de Choiseul, Duc de Praslin Killed his wife, then killed himself.
  • Edmund Roche, 5th Baron Fermoy -- Someone else 05:25 Nov 4, 2002 (UTC)

Committed has two t's. - Montréalais 06:43 Nov 4, 2002 (UTC)

Celebrity deaths that >>MIGHT<< fall a bit short in the suicide department:

  -- Someone else 07:23 Nov 4, 2002 (UTC)

Isn't listing Socrates a bit of a stretch? I'd say it was more a case of him being sentanced to death and not resisting. --Infrogmation

I agree. Forcing someone to kill themselves is no suicide. (The same goes for the victims in Jonestown, Guyana, by the way.) I favor removing Socrates from the list.

We've been renaming many pages of this sort in format "List of notable people who have committed suicide" -- any pros or cons with this page?

Presumably the logical cutoff in "questionable cases" is whether the cause of death is officially listed as suicide, with a note about questionable nature or contoversy as appropriate.

A "suicide" is someone who commits suicide, as well as the act itself. Changing the article name made it shorter. --Ed Poor

I am quite afraid that this sort of lists will soon be out of control. How famous is famous? I don't know even half of the names listed here, but I can give you a list of suicides well-known in China and nearly unheard by westerners. I bet that it may be more serious for Japanese, if it is true that certain suicide is honored in the past.

If they're famous to the most populous nation in the world, they're famous enough for me! Go ahead and add them, I say. --AW

Are you sure? If I remember, most of samurais did Harakiri when they surrunder or be punished in some way. In other words, tons of well-known Japanese historical figures commited suicide. Maybe we should name this article as List of famous western suicides for clarification. -- Taku 02:52 Mar 22, 2003 (UTC)

Seems an uncomfortable distinction, as if non-Western suicides aren't worth mentioning. Perhaps we could create a separate article for samurai suicides? --AW

Umm, I don't know. How about can we make a list according to the way of suicides? Like Harakiri, using gun and so on. -- Taku 03:13 Mar 22, 2003 (UTC)

Maybe we can make a list according to their "class"? popstars, scientists, politicans, samurais, royalties? Wshun

I think a chronological list by date of suicide makes most sense. That avoids the messy kind of category arguments that other solutions give. Martin

Shouldent this article be arranged into some sort of order say alphabetical order because at the moment it's a mess G-Man

I removed Dr David Kelly from the list because it has not been confirmed that he commited sucide. The police have only said "Whilst our enquiries are continuing there is no indication at this stage of any other party being involved." [1]. Although some press have speculated that it is suicide. It is only appropriate to list as a suicide when confirmed by coroner, police, in court or by an formal inquiry.

-- Popsracer 02:31 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The police have stated categoricially that it was suicide (BBC News 24 interview with the police.) And no, "some press have speculated that it is suicide", every single newspaper, every single politician, every friend of his, every member of his family, the police, the doctor who examined his corpse and every single source in existence states it was a suicide. In terms of certainty, there is 100% certainty in his case, which is more than can be said in the cases of a lot of people listed here, from Maryln Monroe to Crown Prince Rudolph and many many people on the list. In the circumstances where there is 100% absolute certainty (and there is here unambiguously) waiting for a formal coroner's court ruling is absurd. That is applying a degree of legal certainty that has not been applied to most of the rest of this list, when there is not the slightest doubt as to what the outcome of the coroner's court will be, its ruling a mere technicality in a case of absolute certainty. I have reinserted Kelly's name. For an encyclopædia that prides itself on being up to date, not to put an unambiguous suicide here would make wiki look rediculous. FearÉIREANN 03:46 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)


Thank you for your justification, I'll be happy to accept your point of view and leave it at that. Although I would have been more happy with some supporting evidence in the form of a link to a web page. But then not everything appears on the web and I'll accept what you heard or saw on the news.

Suicides are something that should be dealt with utmost care, because ultimately you are talking about someone who was loved by his family and friends. The press are always very careful about suicides and I believe Wikipedia should be as well. Which is why you will often hear 'apparent suicide' or that 'the police are not seeking anyone else in connection with the death'. Although it is important to report in a timely fashion, it is also important to wait until the facts have been established. Most press organisations have a set of rules about reporting suicides.

BBC news search for david kelly suicide only reveals six links. Which only say apparent suicide, except for comments from the general public. Most articles at the BBC website just refer to it is as a death.


Again searching CNN reveals, CNN News search: "david kelly" suicide only brings up two articles, both of which say 'apparent suicide'. Again most articles on the CNN website refer to it just as a death.

Also the none of the articles in the news section of website of the Thames Valley Police mention a suicide.

I would certainly dispute that the suicide is "100% certainty". But I've got other things to do so I'll leave it at that.

-- Popsracer 04:16 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Hmm. He died from a massive hemorraging (sp?) from a wrist wound, with an open bottle of pills beside him. (I forgot the brand name.) He sent a palpable suicide letter to a Washington Post reporter. I hate Ockham's razor with a rare passion, but this is definitely one case where it may have a genuine real world application. -- Cimon Avaro

Ok. This is what the Washington Post website said: (I am assuming this is fair use)

" Two days later he was dead, and police today confirmed that he had committed suicide by slashing his left wrist in a wooded area a few miles from the English village where he lived with his wife. A sharp knife and a packet of painkillers were found near his body, which was discovered Friday morning, about 12 hours after his family had reported him missing."

-- Cimon Avaro

I agree and understand your caution. Normally I would be the first to jump up and say "not proven" (I can be a bit of a stickler for accuracy on wiki, which annoys some people) but as a historian who works in the media and knows how to read media coverage (great fun, BTW, knowing how to read media coverage. Where libel reasons means the media can't say something they do anywy, but in a coded way that people outside the media/politics don't get, so they think the media is saying 'x' whereas in a coded manner it is saying 'y') if there were any doubts whatsoever as to the suicide it would be expressed.

They wouldn't say it, but they'd show it in code, eg, use of the word "apparent suicide" in sentences where it doesn't seem logical, meaning though they can't say it, "there is more to this than meets the eye, so we are covering ourselves here", in throwing in seemingly odd lines of questioning by presenters, raising seemingly strange angles on things, clearly stalling on something in a way that might not be obvious to the average viewer but stands out a mile to people in the industry. Classic examples: Princess Diana's car crash occured after midnight (Irish time). The French Interior Minister confirmed her death at 4.15, B. Palace at 5.30. Anyone who knew how to read the media coverage would have had a fair idea by 2am that she was dead, and be 100% certain by 3am. (It drove the presenters mad having to talk for hours about Diana surviving when it was patiently obvious she was dead but they could not say it until someone official said it.

Similarly when a British newspaper said a top MP had a mistress but didn't name him, they put a picture of the Liberal Democrat leader Paddy Ashdown beside it, meeting some constituent the previous day or something I think. If you know newspapers you'd know immediately the story on he meeting the woman was utterly unnewsworthy and the picture pointless. So no sane editor would have carried the picture . . . unless it was being carried for a reason unconnected to the picture and the story about it. The only possible reason was the story it was plonked beside; unnamed MP and affair. Which meant they were telling anyone who knew how to read these things that the guy in the story was Ashdown.

If there was the slightest doubt about Kelly's suicide the broadsheet press and the BBC would use "back-off" language, and even if the average viewer didn't get the subtleties anyone in the media would. They'd have their police and medical sources saying "you can't broadcast this, but there is more to this than has been publicly revealed." Instead the broadsheets and the BBC are not using any backoff language, which means they have spoken to their sources and those sources have told them there is not a modicum of doubt but that it was suicide. Even the key backout words apparent or suspected are rarely being used. That only happens in the quality press when they have been categorically told by the police and coroner court people that this is an absolutely clear cut rock solid case. FearÉIREANN 05:32 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I see that Terry Kath (of the band Chicago is listed here. There's no question that Kath shot himself; however, my definition of a suicide requires intent, and there is no consensus about whether this was an accident, suicide, or something in-between. I would like to remove this entry altogether as any attempt to qualify the inclusion would only serve to weaken the point of the article. Jgm 00:05, 12 Sep 2003 (UTC)

25/10/2006 Hi, just a quick one - hope I've popped this in the right place (rather new to all this!). Should Pamela Morrison a) be listed as Pamela Courson or Pamela Morrison and more importantly b), should she even be on the list of suicides when the cause of death for her is not suicide? Any thoughts appreciated. I would like to make an edit on this, as something of a Pamela Morrison fan, but do not want to be accused of vandalism or somesuch...

[edit] Kurt Cobain's death

Many investigators think Kurt Cobain may had be murdered. Therefore You should remome him of the list. -- Poposho 04:31, 19 Sep 2003 (UTC)

There will always be conspiracy theories but until it is proven I believe Cobain belongs on the list with a disclaimer. Redfarmer 15:04, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Why are we making an exception for the NPOV rule here? We've gone over it at the Kurt article, and we've decided that we can not classify this as a suicide since the evidence is still questionable. -- LGagnon 19:28, July 11, 2005 (UTC)

Kurt should be on the list but it should be noted that there are strong theroies that point to murder

Do we have to say alleged Columbine High School shooter? Is there any doubt? DJ Clayworth 20:17, 16 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories aside, I don't believe there's any doubt. Redfarmer 15:04, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How is it known that Adolf Hitler, and especially Eva Braun committed suicide? Dori 14:29, Oct 20, 2003 (UTC)

The following didn't have any dates, thus I removed them from the list:

  • the Soga
  • Hashimoto Sanaii
  • Kusaka Gennai

BTW Kusaka Gennai is also listed on List_of_assassinated_persons. Soga was in the 6th century? -- User:Docu

_____________________

If you're going to mention that Cobain may have been murdered, shouldn't you also add that there is suspicion that Elliott Smith was also murdered, and for that matter Salvador Allende?

Should the 9/11 terrorists be listed here? --Auximines 11:48, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

What would people think of listing after each person's profession the method each person used? I think it would make the page more interesting. Also I think if there is some doubt that a person committed suicide they should still be listed, but with an asterisk or something indicating that murder (or whatever) is suspected by some. -R. fiend 18:52, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)


I put Kurt Corbain under possible sucicdes. I think that is the best place for him.ShadowWriter 04:17, 13 January 2007 (UTC)


if Elliott Smith is under "possible sucicdes" Kurt Cobain should be too, it is more widely thought that Kurt was murdered then that Elliott was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.176.254.70 (talk) 00:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] jon lee

shdnt jon lee drummer of feeder who suicided in 2002 (one of britains best bands) be included on here

other suicide list

How come their are two lists and some people appear on one but not on the other

[edit] suggestion: format change

Rather than listing entries this way:

  • George Eastman, (1932), inventor
  • Hannibal, (182 BC), military commander
  • Virginia Woolf, (1941), British novelist

it would be more interesting and useful (I think) to list the entries as such:

  • George Eastman, (1932), gunshot
  • Hannibal, (182 BC), poison
  • Virginia Woolf, (1941), drown

What are your thoughts? Kingturtle 05:29, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

Currently, a few entries already have that information at the end of the entries. For your samples that would read:
  • George Eastman, (1932), inventor; gunshot
  • Hannibal, (182 BC), military commander; poison
  • Virginia Woolf, (1941), British novelist; drowning
If the list would provide the information in one way or the other for all entries, I think that would be interesting (hopefully not too "useful"). Personally, I would keep the short description of the person, afterall it's currently an alphabetical list. -- User:Docu
Should we change to the format to separate articles into categories? Gflores Talk 16:33, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
A good rule of thumb for the use of parentheses is that the text should still make syntctical sense if the parentheses and the text within are removed. In this example:
  • George Eastman, (1932), gunshot
becomes
  • George Eastman, , gunshot.

I've removed those extraneous commas throughout the list. TheMadBaron 02:52, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] cleopatra:suicide or not???

Some significant problems with Plutarch's account of the "suicide" present. a. He wrote 75 years after the fact. b. Cobras take any where from 20 minutes to 2 hours and may require 10 or more strikes just to kill one person, let alone Cleo and her poor pair of maidens. c. The snake wasn't found when Octavian's thugs showed up. d. Who provided her with the snake in the first place? e. If you were one the the handmaidens and just watched your queen allow a snake to repeatedly bite her, would you calmly pick it up and do the same. Or would you, like a normal person, scream bloody murder and run like hell? f. Wouldn't a nice dagger be faster and less painful?

Read more at http://hnn.us/roundup/comments/9444.html

Jim K.65.102.21.74 05:35, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Whether she actually suicided or not, it is a fact that she is one of the most famous people who have been ever reputed to have suicided. That fact alone (perhaps with qualifications about the historical accuracy) merits her a place on the list. JackofOz 07:13, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] too low on the right: Resources for dealing with suicidal thought

Why is this part near the bottom of the upper right textbox? I understand that it has a lesser relation, but I think it's important to make it available sooner for anyone that is having trouble with it. Just my 2 cents. Supaplex 06:42, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I searched the internet and couldn't find anything about Derick House. Perhaps should be removed from the list.

  • And I can't find anything about Christian Nordqvist, can someone confirm, please? J. Pinto 13:38, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] suicides in famous people's families

should we include some of them? probably not

famous boxer george chuvalo lost 3 sons and 1 wife to suicide and ?drug overdoses?

[edit] campus suicides

I noticed that Violent crime and suicide at Ivy League universities was deleted, but it was the closest thing I could find to a list of suicides on university campuses or by then-students of the universities in question. Given that this is a topic that continues to receive much press, could we organize a List of college and university suicides? It wouldn't be OR if listings are backed up by official school announcements or campus newspaper articles. Thoughts? Wl219 11:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I have started a subpage here, comments welcome. Wl219 01:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional Characters

Under Terrell we have a fictional character who killed himself with a taser. If there is a consensus I believe we should splice out all of the fictional characters; we can create a page for them or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.237.207.0 (talk) 22:20, 24 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Question on John Berryman

"John Berryman (1972), American poet, jumped from the Washington Avenue Bridge (Minneapolis) after waving to passers-by "

After developing an interest in this poet and doing some research on his life, I haven't seen the part about him waving, although it would be interesting. I was wondering if anyone knew of a credible second source to confirm this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.211.77.206 (talk) 04:24, 2 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Spoiler warning

I've redone Kusma's removal of the unnecessary "spoiler" warning from a section clearly marked "Suicides in fiction". Anyone reading past that section header has been clearly warned what to expect, so an extra warning is superfluous. --Tony Sidaway 14:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

This is a proxy war. Please abstain from implementing your policy until the discussion is over. --87.189.89.215
No, it's really just a use of templates that is just silly. I'm with Tony and Kusma. Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:17, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] notable, (red links)?

if someone is a red wiki link, they aren't notable are they! Artlondon 18:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed entry

Removed this one:

  • Xavier Murguia (2007), Amateur gay pornography actor who unexpectedly pulled out a handgun and shot himself while filming on the set of his 3rd, and now defunct, film.

Googling gives nothing and it seems that this might as well be someone pulling a prank on a friend. If I'm wrong, put him back.

  • Likewise, I'm removing this entry: "Alex Smith (1990), Queen of the Earth Aka Shiva". --Extremophile (talk) 03:34, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vince Foster

Is it necessary to characterize Vince Foster's suicide as "still controversial"? The intro on his own Wikipedia page shows that multiple independent investigators--and some arguably not-so-independent investigators, such as Ken Starr--didn't find it controversial at all. CFBSolon 01:07, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Marco Pantani

Isn't it highly probable that it was suicide ?

[edit] John Belushi

I removed John Belushi from the list as his was an accidental overdose. GillianHunt

[edit] Bogus Listings?

There are some listings here that sound awfully suspicious:

  1. Amber Greene (2003) Died because she was raped by a moose
  2. Eric Goetz (2005) Died from overusing the name rick baalman

Kottmeier 07:28, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alphabetical order needs to be fixed

For whatever reason, the A section is ordered by first name instead of by the second letter of the last name, as would be standard. This needs to be fixed.68.45.106.216 (talk) 13:09, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks.-gadfium 19:20, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing people with no article

Since this list is basically unreferenced, with the article links standing in for referencing, I've gone ahead and removed a number of redlinked items and those without applicable articles. I've also added a references section while I'm at it; there was only one reference in the whole list. Many of the people I removed are notable enought that they could be readded with refenences (or with an article containing references); some didn't appear to be notable at all and shouldn't appear in this list. Please don't just blindly readd this material without sourcing it. If there's no source for the suicide, or no source for the notability of the particular persona lleged to commit suicide, their name should not appear here. — Gavia immer (talk) 17:13, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal to split the fiction material into a new article

Like it says in the section title up there, I propose that the two sections of fictional suicides be split into their own article, tenatively List of suicides in fiction (List of fictional suicides, which reads more cleanly, is ambiguous). My reasons for the proposal:

  1. Fundamentally, they are different topics - suicides that actually happened versus suicides in fiction. At present, they are artificially welded together by the shared "suicide" concept, but browsing either part of the list should make it clear what the differences are.
  2. The list as it stands is fairly long, and each of the proposed articles is a substantial section, so splitting will result in two shorter, more readable lists.
  3. Most fundamentally, the standards for verification (and the consequences of insufficient verification) are different for the two topics. For real world suicides, we absolutely, positively, need sourcing for the assertion of suicide, and if that's not obtainable, we shouldn't have it on the list. For fictional incidents of suicide, it may well be more difficult to verify (though it might also be easier, for well known works), but the consequences of unverified information are a bit less. As a consequence, splitting the article will help maintain each part to an acceptable level of accuracy given the separate standards.

Since this can be a sensitive article, though, I'd like to get other people's opinions before giong forward with a split. I realize that it's just now coming up on Christmas, so I anticipate not going forward for a while. However, if there aren't any serious objections, I'm likely to carry it forward after January 1. Any thoughts?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Gavia immer (talk • contribs)

I read the title of this section, and I thought it was a joke. Are there really fictional suicides in here? If so, I would say it's not only desirable but necessary to put them in their own article. The Evil Spartan (talk) 03:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
I think splitting the fiction out is a great idea.-gadfium 04:16, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Update: It's after January 1, so in light of the lack of objections, it's done. Feel free to look over the material there for anything you feel needs improvement. — Gavia immer (talk) 15:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] John Kennedy Toole

I think should be moved to the 'unknown before death' side, as he was totally unknown as a writer until many years after his death. Objections? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.185.241 (talk) 23:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Seconded. Althought it's a contentious category, I think since he wasn't even published until after death, it's fairly safe to say he wasn't known as a writer until then. Markleci (talk) 14:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I dunno. I've actually been vaguely thinking about just getting rid of that section; I don't know that it helps clarify the list at all. One clue about this, in my mind is that so many "unknown before death" types (Toole qualifies) actually aren't listed there, but in the main section. In practice, it's being used to separate out some suicide attackers, which I don't think is necessarily a good thing. On the subject at hand, though, if the section stays, Toole should be there. — Gavia immer (talk) 14:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Just to follow up, since there hasn't been any objection to the idea, I went ahead and dispersed the "unknown before death" section into the main listings. Anyone should feel free to reverse this if they wish, but I believe it's an improvement to the article. — Gavia immer (talk) 17:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Good idea. It was an unnecessary complication to the article structure.-gadfium 20:01, 7 June 2008 (UTC)