Talk:List of subcultures

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 13 May 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

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[edit] Merge into List of Lifestyles

First off, calling anything a "subculture" promoted the POV that it is somehow less than "the rest of the culture". Yes, originally the term may have been intended to be NPOV of now it has acquired this connotation. In any case, these two pages are very similar and should probabaly be merged anyway. Question is, should the list be sorted alphabetically (like here) or by category (like at List of lifestyles? --STGM 01:53, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


I disagree the label of subculture does not have negtive connotations, it does not mean less than the rest of the culture, but simply a smaller category. The same way you have species and sub-species, it simply allows you to differentiate at a more detailed level. And the difference between lifestyle and subculture is HUGE! A lifestyle is a way that a person chooses to live their life. Yes many people may choose the same lifestyle but it is based on the individual choices of that person. A sub-culture, by virtue of being a culture, requires interaction between members who identify themselves along some sort of common interest. It may be that many of the items listed on the List of Lifestyles page are the same or similar to those listed here but that is a problem with the content of the other page and not with this one. (The talk page on List of Lifestyles goes through this problem in great detail.) The solution then would definitly not be to merge the two pages, but to collaboratively rework the List of Lifestyles page by agreeing on a general definition of lifestyle and removing or relocating everything that does not belong there. JenLouise 03:12, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] folk?

could a folk music subculture be listed. I personally know one exists, it has 'beleifs', certainly has style (lots of beards/ hippyish) , obviously music tastes, there's often a fairly closed community of folkies (a lot of audiances at folk gigs are folkies) , drink tastes (real ale/guiness) and people within this subculture are recognisable 'outside' the enviroment. the only reason I haven't added it is if it isn't recognised elsewhere (by people 'outside' the culture) unlike stuff like emo/indie culture, this isn't just limited to musicians by the way, theres loads of 16+ year old slightly hippyish students who follow folk bands around in my area ( it tends to be sixth form age +wards rather than school age.)

The article states that a sub-culture "is a culture or set of people with distinct behavior and beliefs within a larger culture. The essence of a subculture, that distinguishes it from other social groupings, is awareness of style and differences in style, in clothing, music or other interests".

Does manga artist dress different than other? No. Does they have any disinct behavior or belief? Not really. They have a hobby, like everyone else. But a hobby is not the same as a culture. The list is more about "what is cool" than "what is subcultures".

For this reason, I have cut away a lot of the examples. The following has been removed:

--Kasper Hviid 18:57, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Many of these do qualify perfectly well as discernible subcultures, though. The only ones I can see that wouldn't are "Import scene", "Disco", "Demoscene". I suspect "Cyberpunk" and "Steampunk" are questionable. But all the others definitely qualify. I've left the entire list in this article pending further discussion - David Gerard 19:45, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thank for your answer! I am not sure what you mean by "discernible" subcultures. Is it a word from sociology, or do you mean people we can catagorize, like "dog-owners" or "manga-artist"?

It looks like we have two different definitions:

  1. Sub-culture is when a group has a lifestyle, ethics or belief which is unusually far from the culture they live in. So far, that some people think of it as "them" and "us". Examples: Punkers, expatriates, gangs, homless people.
  2. Sub-culture is when a group has a shared interest, which they find so important that it becomes part of their identity. Example: Doctors, unemployed people, vegetarians, programmers, athletes, etc.


Either a small culture within a larger culture, or something a group of people has in common!

I find the first definition most usable. This would also be the literal sense of the word. But I am no expert, its just the way I have noticed the word being used. Oxford Advanced Learner's dictionary seems to support the second definition, though. --Kasper Hviid 00:27, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The second definition is much closer to the one used by sociologists, which is what the article subculture is about. (I'm not a sociologist myself, so please don't rely on me for precise terminology ;-) The first isn't really, but could be bent into the shape of the second one - David Gerard 22:48, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Im puzzled .. I dont know what the true meaning of the word is. Most definitions I see online supports 1), but that doesnt say much.--Kasper Hviid 16:03, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think that this list should just be put back into the article about subcultures. Still, I think it would be better if the list was less focused on 'cool' subcultures, but instead had a more broad view. (Examples like doctors, cancer-patients, farmers, and such). --Kasper Hviid 10:20, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In culture, it is stated that all cultures have key components: values, norms, institutions, and artifacts. Well, isn't a subculture just a little culture of its own? So if there's an item on the list lacking one of the key components, it doesn't qualify as a subculture. If, however, it does have all of those in some way or another, it deserves to stay. That's my two cents. --CorduroyB 3:30, 07 Sep 2006 (EST)

Some groups that do not seem like subcultures at first glance, can be subcultures of amazing depth. Take gamers for example. At first they seem to be isolated loners just playing their games. That is wrong. They have conventions, their have norms, some speak a specilized language (leet), They have their artifacts in the shirsts they wear promotying things, they have their own values and norms. Tell me, how are they NOT a subculture? When you look at that, think how you can apply it to all the others.

The values and norms part is easy to apply to them. Artifacts are what they make just for the people who share the same interests as them. The insitutions are their organized gatherings, or other such things.

Come to think of it, it would also apply for doctors, lawyers, pet owners, the homeless and many other people. Corrupt one (talk) 22:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] order of list?

from what i can see there is no order to items on this page; how about either alphabetical or maybe in 'decade of origin' order? --MilkMiruku 09:34, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Subcultures are very myriad-to define any of these under one category would be an imposibility. This list is by no means complete or in need of an order by general items. A list by era and starting points would be an excellent idea. --Dremast3 19:53, March 13 2006

If there is no objective or obvious order, we do it alphabetically. This is not an article, it's a list. --Cheeser1 (talk) 23:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deathrock

Deathrock is listed as a branch of the punk subculture. Surely it has just as much (if not more) in common with goth?


[edit] Systematic bias

This list pretty much only deals with Western subcultures, and it really needs to mention subculture of non-Western culture. Also, it needs to be organized into what each subculture is a subculture of.

Example(these people had nothing better to do):


  • Subcultures of blurk (I'm not feeling very creative today.)
    • blurk
    • blurk
      • blurkblurk
    • bleep

I agree it seem to focus on western subcultures, but that is where the editors are mainly coming from. I am sure that the forign language sections of wikipedia, such as Chinesse, reflect their own subcultures more then western ones. After all, it is hard to read many languaegs, and find referance material in those languages focusing on subcultures in just one place. I am also pretty sure that other article have such a basis. The English section of Wikipedia is mainly written by westerns, using Western referance material that is made by research into Western cultures (or in this case, subcultures). All I can recommend is finding someone who can read and write a forign language like japanesse and have them translate the referances from their own languages. Corrupt one (talk) 22:47, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] rude boys

rude boys are listed here as a subsection of punk.

however rude boy culture started in jamaca in the sixties, long before punk came about.

[edit] Template

Is there a template for subcultures? If not, I'd like to see/contribute to the creation of one. mwazzap 04:33, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be in the subculture article? If not, then remember, only use VERIFIBLE sources, and no OR. I would be interested in such a template. Corrupt one (talk) 22:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hip-Hop lifestyle

could the hip hop culture really be called a subculture? I mean, you hear about it all the time, BET for instance.Angelofdeath275 02:23, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs new structure

This list needs to have a better structure to distinguish it from the category with the same name. Otherwise it serves no useful purpose and will be nominated for deletion.


I would suggest possibly listing them by decade, or other suitable time-based segmentation.--ZayZayEM 02:24, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Townies

  • I'm not really sure if this qualifies as a subculture. It's really more of a slang term than anything. Eyeball kid 17:36, 9 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] ploc

someone need to create a article about the ploc subculture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.79.28.79 (talk) 00:21, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

What is ploc? I can find no definition online, in dictionaries, or elsewhere that resembles any sort of subculture. --Cheeser1 (talk) 01:51, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Groupies?

Would they be considered a sub-culture? They do follow the definition of a sub-culture ("...a culture or set of people with distinct behavior and beliefs within a larger culture.") The larger culture being hip-hop, punk rock, etc.Demoman87 16:37, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

No. That's far too vague/poorly-defined. Remember, this is a technical term, not a slang or widely-applicable label. --Cheeser1 19:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, how do they differ from the rest of their groups? Also, have you found REFERANCES to them being a subculture? Remember, everything added has to be referanceable. Corrupt one (talk) 22:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Classical music

Are there any subcultures of classical music lovers? 89.236.214.174 (talk) 12:57, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

No, unless you can find some evidence that such a subculture verifiably exists. Most musical styles/genres do not immediately or automatically define some sort of subculture. --Cheeser1 (talk) 13:39, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Cheeser is correct. A Subculture may form AROUND a type of music, such as punk, but the music itself is not what defines a subculture. Corrupt one (talk) 22:37, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, I found some classical-music "fans" ([1], [2], [3]), and I guess they might be described as classical music subcultures. Abdullais4u (talk) 07:34, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
You guess? --Cheeser1 (talk) 09:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
In the list, we have house music fans, motorcycle riders, new wave music fans, so why don't include classical music fans? Or classical music couldn't manage to gain some sort of subculture around itself? It seems, we're just ignoring them. Abdullais4u (talk) 11:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't think you understand how a list works on Wikipedia. Furthermore, your logic is highly flawed - Wikipedia is not perfect, you cannot cite other items on the list as automatic indicators that your analogous item should be on the list. It may be the case that none of them belong on the list (or that your analogy is inadequate). --Cheeser1 (talk) 16:13, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Remember, everything added should be REFERANCABLE AND VERIFIABLE! If it is not, then itr counts as OR, and is not allowed! Also, tell me WHAT culture they have of their own? How does it differ from mainstream culture? If it does not, then how can it could as a subculture? If you are talking about educated people who enjoy clasical music, then you are just talking about a subsection of society, and looking at one part that they sometimes have in common.

Motorcycle triders MAY be considered a subculture, IF THEIR BEHAVIOR ATTIDUTES AND LIFE FOCUSES ON THE BIKES! You also need referances to argue this. If there is no referances from verifiable and reliable resources, it can't be included. Corrupt one (talk) 22:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep in mind, however, that this list will not contain references (e.g. for bikers) because it is a list. The references and verifiable information will be in the relevant article. Considering the fact that we don't even have an article on "classical music culture," (as far as I know) I'm not sure how it could ever be included on this list. --Cheeser1 (talk) 22:58, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I gave references (see above for links), and what else d'you want? You don't recognize CM fans as a subculture, just because they not wear t-shirts with Mozart, Monteverdi, Vivaldi faces on them, or don't make, say, Beethoven-like-hairstyle? Abdullais4u (talk) 13:38, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Real sources. That means reliable, independent, third-party sources that are editorially or peer reviewed and then published. --Cheeser1 (talk) 15:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
90% of this list is unsourced OR, half of it is simply music genres. Can it be salvaged it should it go to an afd? I don't think there are that many actual real sourced subculture for the list. --neonwhite user page talk 00:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I don't want deletion but it definitely needs correction

I think it is a good idea to have a list of subcultures. I have been interested in finding one myself. But I agree, we need to come up with stricter standards for what qualifies as a subculture and what does not. I'll put my head toward that goal.

I agree that organization should be alphabetized but grouped by what main culture they are a minority to.

Computer art scene -- I think this is a hobby instead of a subculture.
Cosplayers -- This is also a hobby.
Deaf culture -- This one is definitely a subculture and I might be able to find the references to verify that.
Disco -- This is a genre of music, not a subculture.
Emo -- This also is a genre.
Fandom --this is a hobby.
Folk music scene -- This is a genre.
Furry fandom -- Furry would be the subculture. Furry Fandom is a hobby.
Gamer -- This is a hobby.
Gangsta rap -- This is a genre.
Gay skinhead -- Gay is a subculture and Skinhead is a subculture but I don't know if Gay Skinhead qualifies as a subculture or merely people that are in two subcultures at the same time.
Goth subculture -- This one is a subculture.
Graffiti artists -- This is a hobby.
Grungers -- This one is questionable.
Hacker culture -- This is a hobby.
Hip hop culture -- This is a genre.
Hippie -- This is most definitely a subculture.
Hipster -- This is a slang term and most definitely not a subculture.
House music fans -- A genre.
Indie (culture) -- A genre.
Jock (subculture) -- Since when has there been a subculture of jocks. Jocks are a type of person but not a cultural identity.
Leather subculture -- This one is questionable.
Lolita Fashion -- This is a fashion trend. This is not a subculture.
Mat Rempit -- This sounds like an individual.
Metalheads -- A genre.
Motorcycle club member -- A club is not a subculture.
Motorcycle rider -- There is a subculture of bikers but not all motorcycle riders are in that subculture so we need to rename this one.
National Socialist black metal -- This one is a combination of a political philosophy and a genre. Neither of which is a subculture.
New Age -- This is a religion. Not a subculture.
New Wave music fans -- How many genres are going to be passed off as subcultures. Wouldn't you rather have a list of genres.
Nudism -- This is a definite subculture.
Pop punk -- Genre.
Preppy -- Slang.
Punk subculture -- This one is questionable but probably a genre.
Queer culture -- This is the wrong name to use for this subculture.
Rave -- Hobby.
Redneck -- Type of person.
Redskin (subculture) -- Is this another derogatory name for Native American.
Rocker (subculture) -- Genre.
Skate punk -- Hobby.
Skinhead -- Subculture.
Straight edge -- Questionable.
Swing Kids -- At least someone included a historical and non-American reference but it's still questionable whether it's a subculture or not.
Swinging -- Questionable. Might be a hobby.
Trekkie -- Fans of a genre are not a subculture.
Vampire lifestyle -- Hobby.
Veganism -- Questionable.
Vegetarianism -- Health habit.
Yuppie -- slang. --Bejjinks (talk) 07:02, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the best way forward is to list what can be sourced as a subculture and see what we have. Just to correct Rocker (subculture) was actually a subculture centered on motorcycles and not just a genre. --neonwhite user page talk 12:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Bejjinks, you are right about some of those, but totally wrong about others. You should actually read the articles before casting judgements. The key to deciding whether a topic should be on this list is whether its article demonstrates that it is a subculture. Also, the articles should only be listed alphabetically. Any attempt at organizing them differently would be purely based on personal opinion, aka original research.Spylab (talk) 22:53, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
That's not actually true, there is no set way to classify lists. See Wikipedia:LISTS#Organization. it's not original research as it's not a content issue. --neonwhite user page talk 02:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Some I agree I would not consider subcultures, but I am no expert in those areas. However, deciding ourselves would make it OR. If something is not mentioned to BE a subculture, then we can't include it as one. For example, metalheads can have their own subculture. The hardcore audiance for it act different, have different tastes, and dress different from so so called mainstream of society. New age is not just a religion, but a lifestyle. I actually do not know WHAT the new age religion is, and I try to study different faiths for a laugh! There are many more things there I could mention.

On Wikipedia a golden rule is that unless you can find referances to a fact, it is not a fact. Corrupt one (talk) 23:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Alot of the individual articles are unsourced so they really need dealing with first, but it's a major task. --neonwhite user page talk 02:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I may not know about all those subcultures. In fact, I didn't include any of the items that I didn't even have an educated guess about. I am suggesting we come up with criteria and the number one criteria is adequate references. Because merely seeing the name of a subculture says absolutely nothing about what that subculture is unless you happen to know that subculture. I thought about it today and I think another criteria is that it involve a number of different areas of culture. So fans of Jewel would not be a subculture because, even if they get together and talk about music all the time, they only have one culture area in common: music. They might all dress differently, have different tastes in art and literature, etceteras. --Bejjinks (talk) 03:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

We cannot make decisions on what constitues a subculture here, that would be OR. It's a term that was defined by sociologists but you are correct in that a subculture is usually consider more than common interests or fashion. Politics, religion, ethnicity, behaviour usually play a primary role and fashion etc is usually just an indicator of or even a creation of a subculture rather than a way to define one. --neonwhite user page talk 03:15, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
ok, i think some are common sense and should be kept unless contended, as this is an encyclopedia, we should be looking to avoid the common misuse of the term to describe things like fashions, trends, styles, stereotypes, interest groups, fetish groups, political parties, religions, music genres, fan groups etc. Although some of these are part of a subculture they don't define them. After doing some checking i think the ones that we can safely include (without OR) are any others should be removed and add as and when they can be sourced. : -
  • BDSM - probably not too controversial and common sense
  • Bills - based on sources in the article
  • Deaf culture - well sourced in the article
  • Freeganism - well sourced in the article
  • Goth - uncontroversial
  • Greaser (subculture) - uncontroversial
  • Hippie - uncontroversial
  • Hardline (subculture) - uncontroversial
  • LGBT culture - uncontroversial
  • Mod (lifestyle) - well sourced
  • Nudism - uncontroversial
  • Pachuco - well sourced article
  • Punk subculture - uncontroversial
  • Rocker (subculture) - uncontroversial
  • Rude boy - uncontroversial
  • Straight edge - uncontroversial
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Neon white (talk • contribs) 18:30, 14 May 2008

[edit] spring cleaning time

I'll try to sort the list a bit. I also put on this list the comments of User:Bejjinks and User:Neon white. Notice that the article was proviously called "list of subcultures and lifestyles".

I stopped at the H and updated the list on the article, will resume other day.

Note: I see that many of these articles are inside the subculture category, despite not mentioning the word "subculture" on them. --Enric Naval (talk) 00:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)