Talk:List of school-related attacks

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[edit] Article Mistakes

The first event, which took place in Newburgh, NY, lists James Foster as the attacker, when in fact, James Ferguson is the name in the article "Fired into group of children" published April 10, 1891 on page 2 of the New York Times. the article is available for viewing in PDF on www.nytimes.com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.239.43 (talk) 23:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Massacre vs Individual event

I think that massacres or multiple injuries/deaths should be the first section and individual events be a separate section. I came to this article from a school shootings which has a very good description of how they differ:

School shooting is a term popularized in the United States and Canada media to describe gun violence at educational institutions, especially the mass murder or spree killing of people connected with an institution. A school shooting can be perpetrated by one or more students, expelled students, alumni, or outsiders. Unlike acts of revenge against specific people, school shootings usually involve multiple intended or actual victims, often randomly targeted. School shootings receive extensive media coverage but are infrequent.[1] They often result in nationwide changes of schools' policies concerning discipline and security. Some experts have described fears about school shootings as a type of moral panic.[2]

Canuckle 10:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why suicides?

Is there a particular explanation for why this list considers (isolated) suicides to be "attacks"? It seems kind of pointy. Like someone is maybe trying to convince others that suicides are a Big Deal. I really don't think this is the kind of information that people are looking for on a list like this, and beyond that, I'm pretty sure that suicide incidents tend to be non-notable -- it's the homicidal, criminal factor of incidents like these that make them notable. The only time a suicide is notable is when it is attached to a person who is already notable. Ham Pastrami (talk) 09:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Suicides are not a "Big Deal" or "notable"? I don't think it would be wise to say that to someone who has had one happen at their school (especially if it was a friend of theirs). It could have very well been different and turned into a shooting as well. Besides it is a school death, although I do understand the title of this article is school related "attacks" which implies homicide rather then suicide. So, while I disagree (strongly) that they are not a big deal and notable, I do agree that we should separate the two and perhaps make new article for them. Novadestin (talk) 19:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Please do not take my words out of context. Suicides would be perfectly suitable for a List of suicides. Trying to cram them into an article whose focus is clearly on interpersonal violence is, as I said, pointy. They have no relevance to a list of attacks/shootings/massacres. Wikipedia is not a memorial. Ham Pastrami (talk) 02:15, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Including suicides is a bad mistake. You start listing the school property suicides in Japan alone and this list is going to get REAL long REAL fast. Worldwide it may number in the millions.71.197.68.207 (talk) 17:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reason?

Is there a reason why the USA has the vast majority of the killings? Is it a bias of information, or is it just making an unintended yet fairly obvious statement? Due to there been gun shops, pretty much anyone can steal guns from there parent' house, and then use them to kill.

There's a couple reasons:

1) The US (300 million) is huge by most world standards. We would have a lot no matter what. The CORRECT statistics should be events per capita. 2) The US is a relatively free country. You CAN own a firearm (or other weapons for that matter) and not have to show up in the local police station twice a year for psychiatric evaluation. 3) The US publishes relatively honest crime statistics. So honest Amnesty International uses the US Justice Department figures for its own studies. Amnesty International does not use the official figures for any other country. They go to third party. 4) It's politically correct that the US is the worst country in history.Aaaronsmith (talk) 07:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's some hard facts: according to my list there have been 106 school related attacks in the US, 3 in Canada, and 15 in other countries around the world. Granted my list is really out of date and I am updating it now (and in turn will update here later) but it shows that no it is not bias information that most school attacks happen in the US.Novadestin (talk) 18:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

May I politely request you do a little research (I'm not interested enough to go to the trouble). Try this Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting just for a beginning. Strictly from personal experience with a lot of general reading I would say this page is both larger than your "15 in other countries" and VERY incomplete. Please remember that most countries fudge their crime statistics - ALWAYS low. Some are actually so honest as to admit crime statistics are official secrets. The US, with its independent states which keep individual statistics, is one of the few that does not. Thank you if you check this out.Aaaronsmith (talk) 23:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Guys, take this discussion to main articles on the subject, if this discussion is even appropriate for WP. The reasons behind regional patterns of shootings ultimately does not affect what does and does not go into the list, which is what this talk page is for. Any attempt at explaining causation would be material for the main articles, not the list. Ham Pastrami (talk) 02:20, 12 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] "Massacre" Definition?

Isn't massacre most commonly defined as a mass killing? Some of these incidents involve the death of only one people. There is no actual definition, but should an article on 'attacks' or something of that sort be created? Zchris87v 19:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well committing suicide in front of a class is not exactly an "attack" either. "Massacre" may not be the best term, but I think to make a suitable title, the article would need to be broken down, and it seems most effective as a single article. If someone can think of a better title and post it here, the change can be voted on. Ian Burnet 00:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I propose this be changed to "List of School Killings". Unfortunately, there's a section non-fatal incidences, so this isn't quite right either. Maybe "List of School Attacks" Clemwang 19:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

"Massacre: the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty." Clearly this page is incorrectly named. "List of School Attacks" seems more appropriate.--Fizbin 19:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

In some of those cases no one even dies. Change massacre. AMac2002 04:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I suggest change it to "List of school attacks". 220.239.88.91 22:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. For example in the Talk page for the Dawson college shooting the clear consensus was to change it back to shooting when someone changed it to massacure because only 2 people died and one of the dead was the shooter. I don't see any reason to go against that consensus. Some may be classified as massacres but other should not, especially if there were no deaths at all as there were in the non fatal attacks. List of School attacks is much more accurate. Also since this is a redlink it can be moved by anyone who is a member and since there appears to be a clear consensus that Massare is not the correct term I think it should be moved there due to it being the best title. The reason is that that the other terms suggested do not cover every event as well as attack does. Killings does not since all the events were not fatal and shooting does not either since not every incidient involved a gun. --65.95.17.91 23:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't the Huntersville, NC incident be under the "gun-related" sub-heading? The poor kid was off-campus at a Circle K.

[edit] UNC Van Incident

Why isn't this one on the list? http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/415421.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.75.236.170 (talk) 13:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe because the link isn't working and I have no idea what your asking about? Novadestin (talk) 18:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2 possible shootings?

I have a map of the US from a news site that I got a long while ago (say back in 1999/2000) that shows school shootings in St. Charles, MO and Johnston, RI. I have not been able to find any evidence on these two occurrence's and thought maybe they were foiled/hoaxes/whatever. However I am reluctant to just toss them out because I can't find anything for or against them. Maybe its just under a different name or something, I don't know. Does anyone know of information that could prove they did or did not happen? Novadestin (talk) 22:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Page should have more columns

For:

  • Number of fatalities
  • Number of wounded —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matt57 (talk • contribs) 20:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC).

Primary School Section lists Notre Dame Elementary but doesn't count the shooter as one of the dead —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.164.80.22 (talk) 17:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The "Number of Victims" lists both dead and injured so there's no point in having a separate column for each. And the Notre Dame one does not list him as dead because he killed himself at his home, not at the school itself.Novadestin (talk) 18:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bath School disaster

This is listed under the heading of "elementary school" incidents, although Bath School (per the article and references) was comprised of grades 1-12, something which you don't see a lot of these days. Since it included all these grades, would it be better to create a separate category rather than leave this in elementary? 12.164.130.219 04:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Bath Consolidated School was comprised of several smaller schools that served many neighboring areas (it was 1-12 because it was mostly a rural district and probably easier to keep everything under one roof). But to create a separate category for one listing would seem rather silly, especially since all the victims that were killed were in grades second to sixth. Novadestin (talk) 18:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Anomalous

Under Secondary School related attacks, November 19, 1999 in Deming, New Mexico. It says, "12-year old Victor Cordova Jr. shot and killed 13-year old Araceli Tena. Tena died a day later from sustained wounds in life support." This says that she was already dead when she died, a better way of stating this would be, "12-year old Victor Cordova Jr. shot and wounded 13-year old Araceli Tena. Tena died a day later from sustained wounds in life support." Could I get permission to edit it please? 84.45.134.188 (talk) 20:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

If the information is wrong and you have correct, sourced, information then edit it so that the information is correct. Novadestin (talk) 19:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
You don't need to discuss fixing obvious mistakes. Just use the edit summary to explain what you did. Ham Pastrami (talk) 23:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Possibly Fatal Flaw

We have about 6 (or so) incidents involving a knife. World wide that should be more like 60 thousand. I think the page is just a way for amateur "current events experts" to show how much they know locally and how little once they get beyond the front page of the MSM.

This problem should be addressed before making any more entries to the page or we'll just have more to fix when we finally get around to the real problems.Aaaronsmith (talk) 21:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Original Intent of page

I thought this page was intended to list what could at least be losely defined as school massacres. Listing incidents where one person attacked just one person, or just themselves seems pretty meaningless and will inspire people to add every event of local significance to the list, which is already becoming less and less meaningfull. I think people who come to this list are looking, for whatever reason,to see a group of "I Don't like Mondays" and Dunblane and V Tech situations and compare them. The idea that people come in and kill a group of people in schools etc. as a trend around the world is familiar and of interest. Individual attacks in a school are not really any different to attacks in, say, a workplace or a place of worship or indeed any other attack and, to my mind don't warrent a place in an encyclopedia.

IceDragon64 (talk) 23:23, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] wow

That's a lot of stuff! Hindusauce (talk) 07:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Number of entries

There should be about 500 million entries? That sounds like... . Oh... never mind. If there should be around 500 million entries, then prove it. 67.8.55.66 (talk) 19:23, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Shooting suicides and other kinds of violence happens in school all the time. Why should we list all of them? This is an encyclopedia, not a record of events and statistics. I say we take all of the shooting suicides and minor incidents down, and leave the major ones up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolled (talk • contribs) 23:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Should all minor incidents be deleted?

I believe that we should have all the minor incidents to be deleted, and instead, keep the more major incidents such as the Thurtson High School shooting. Any incidents with two or three wounded or plots should be deleted, as this is a wikipedia, and not a record list. Plehhh (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

==That will make for interesting arguments on this page. What is a serious event? Is a killing serious in the US where it is rare and minor in the Mid East where it happens all the time?

==The only way to be 100% consistent w the page as defined is to include ALL events. If the school bully knocked you down in 6th grade 40 years ago, that qualifies and should be included.Aaaronsmith (talk) 17:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)