Talk:List of rulers of Croatia

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Contents 1 "Pacta Conventa" 2 Anglicization of names 3 Earliest history 4 Monarchs of Hungary 5 Counts of Celje 6 Naming convention 7 Radich

[edit] "Pacta Conventa"

User:Tom Radulovic wrote:

1092 Pacta Conventa is signed by a group of Croatian nobles who formed a Sabor, or parliament, and King Ladislaus I of Hungary. The pact maintains Croatia and Hungary as separate states under a single ruler, Ladislaus. Almos rules as Ladislaus' proxy.

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1097 Battle of Gvozd Mountain (modern Petrova Gora). King Coloman of Hungary, supported by Pannonian Croats, defeats an army of Croatian and Dalmatian nobles allied to Peter Svachich. Coloman revives the Pacta Conventa, and is affirmed as King of Croatia, which is ruled on his behalf by a Ban (viceroy) and the Sabor.

This is somewhat incorrect on several issues, at least according to what I was taught in school and what I read elsewhere.

The historians gave the name Pacta Conventa to the final treaty between the Croats and the Magyars which resulted in Koloman's coronation in Biograd na moru in 1102, not to initial Ladislav's incursions. Ever since the disappearance of Petar Krešimir IV in 1074, the statehood was in jeopardy as there was no heir to the royal dynasty. Zvonimir married Ladislav's sister Jelena (and submitted to the Holy See) exactly for the purpose of making sure that his reign would not be threatened from the outside, but after his death which happened some time between 1087 and 1089, that made king Ladislav one of the closer royalties to inherit the crown. However, he was rejected as a king by the novelty which instated the last of the Trpimirović, Krešimir's nephew Stjepan II, which only lived for two more years. Queen Jelena and her supporters again agitated for the acceptance of Ladislav, and this time there was no longer a backup solution so Ladislav's nephew Almoš started his rule.

However, due to the handling of the issue of the bishopric and the discontent with a foreign ruler, the Croatian novelty made Ladislav fight a war to secure his right to the throne, a war that he clearly never entirely won, as the lords elected a new king among themselves, Petar (hence the pseudo-surname Svačić, meaning everyone's), who ruled most of coastal Croatia for four years. Even Ladislav's successor Koloman, who ended Petar's rule in the battle of Gvozd, didn't succeed in maintaining actual control over Croatia, because he had to divert his armies to the east to fight the Rus' and the Kumans.

Coloman should be the one credited with annexing Croatia to Hungary because he was the one who realized that the right way to get the Croats to really concede the crown was a peaceful negotiation. According to a manuscript that described this process (it began with the words Qualiter et cum quo pacto dederunt se Chroates regi Hungariae, meaning "How and with what contract did the Croats surrender to the king of Hungary" and was interpreted as proof of the Pacta Conventa, but wasn't necessarily literally so), Koloman recovered from his year 1099 losses on the eastern front and in 1102 mounted an attack force near Drava. However, twelve Croatian tribes managed to organize a defence force despite the fact the country was in turmoil throughout the last decade. As Koloman found out that there was to be organized resistance, he decided to extend an offer to the leaders -- they would submit to his sovereignty but would be recognized as regional leaders by him and excluded from paying tribute. They answered his call, set up a meeting, and agreed on such a solution. Koloman was crowned in Biograd na moru as rex Croatiae et Dalmatiae and the Croatians obviously kept their promise that they would not rebel, for the next 425 years, more or less.

Also, the first sentence might give readers the false impression that the Sabor was formed at that date. The word sabor is generic, and it is uncertain when exactly the councils of Croatian leaders (later nobility) became parliamentary. It could have been as far back as 923/925/928 when Tomislav united the duchies and was crowned as a king, it could have been 1102, and it could have been as late as 1526/1527 when they were deciding on the fate of the Croatian provinces after the fall of Louis at Mohacs. --Shallot 21:35, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

And now, an "unpatriotic blow". Looks like "Pacta conventa" is a later forgery Croatian nobles made in order to prevent Hungarians from meddling into their affairs. This is almost commonly accepted in newer authoritative history books (for instance, monumental Raukar's" Hrvatsko srednjovjekovlje"). This is not historical nihilism or "deconstruction" (school of Ivo Goldstein and similar fellas), but a rather banal contention that Croats, in 1100s and 1200s simply didnt have any need for such a formal document, because balance of powers was such that nominal Hungarian overlordship wasnt such a big deal. In fact, Croatian nobles were frequently the most powerful figures in "Hungarian" kingdom, sometimes even more influential than Hungarian wannabe kings (Gorjanski episode). Anyway-"Pacta conventa" is interesting stuff, historically very important (especially in the 18th and 19th cent. legislative-national battles)-but, in all likelihood, a cunning forgery of our cunning forefathers.;^)Mir Harven 22:02, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, like I said, there is no actual written treaty named that way, that's just interpolation, albeit a very entrenched one. It's probably successful because it's so plausible. --Shallot 22:29, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Anglicization of names

I'm not sure why the native names should be modified all that much. Even with anglicized names, the surnames are still -- in a manner of speaking -- odd, so why bother. --Shallot

I think that Nicholas Zrinyi is a good example of why using the anglicized names isn't such a bad idea. Does one use the Magyar Miklos, as the original article did, or the slavic Nikola, as you prefer? Wikipedia tends to use the conventional English names of people and places (Croatia rather than Hrvatska, Yugoslavia rather than Jugoslavija, Plato rather than Platon) and using the English transliteration of common first names (Stephen, Peter, Nicholas) could eliminate some confusion, so long as the native variants are noted. --Tom Radulovich

Well, Zrinski is a good example as far as the first name goes, but a bad one considering the surname. Both mean the same thing, "of Zrin" (a name of their first estate+castle I think), but I don't think that surnames were freely modifiable any more by that historic age.

The examples you stated are all entrenched transliterations, but the names generally aren't. Except maybe for Bošković whose surname was written Boscovich (interestingly enough, the first syllable was done like Italian) because he worked in England for quite a while. People don't generally refer to me as Joseph in English, but Josip as I write it. The only recurring problem I've noticed with "Josip" is with the French speakers, who often misspell it "Jospin"...

Also, we've got redirects to fix any ambiguity anyway. --Shallot

[edit] Earliest history

That Kessler web page that seems to have been a primary resource is lacking the distinction between the Pannonian dukes and the Dalmatian ones, and gives a rather hazy opinion on how the Christianization happened, and a reference saying they were already Christianized when they arrived, which is quite unlikely and I never heard of that anywhere else. I've read elsewhere that the papal "Liber Pontificalis" includes a record of Pope John IV sending the first emmisary to the Croats, but couldn't find a real corroboration of those dates of Radoslav's reign, only that he was the duke of the Dalmatian Croats around that time. Given the existence of a Christening well (sp?) with duke Višeslav's name written as the ruler, I think the sentence about the Christianization during Radoslav's reign is too generic and imprecise. --Shallot 17:57, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Also, Frankish lord Erich is said to have reached Trsat (part of modern Rijeka) in 799, laid siege to the fortress under duke Višeslav and died while getting defeated. The Franks did occupy Croatian lands by 803, but by that time Višeslav is said to have already died. Borna of Dalmatian Croats and Ljudevit of Pannonian Croats were vassal to Charlemagne. Later, in 818, under Louis the Pious, Ljudevit rebelled against the Franks, but was defeated by 822 and died. This was apparently extracted from external sources because later popular historians among the Croats actually wrote that they defeated the Franks after seven years of war and that the next Pannonian duke was Porin, who also Christianized the people with Papal blessing... other records state that the first "believer" dukes were Mislav and Trpimir of the Dalmatian Croats, and the Pannonian Croats' history after Ljudevit is rather unclear (only two recorded rulers, Ratimir and Braslav, in a non-contiguous time period). --Shallot 18:19, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Also :) Constantine Porphyrogenitus wrote how the Croats were Christianized under duke Porga, after emperor Heraclius recommended that the Pope sends missionaries to do so. But again this duke's reign, like Porin's, doesn't seem to be exactly registered elsewhere... --Shallot 18:27, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Shallot: Thanks for your research on the early dukes. Documentation of this period is scarce, and the earliest South Slav "histories" tend toward the murky and mythologized (which, as in most things South Slav, doesn't prevent folks from registering strong opinions:-)). I was tempted to leave out everything before Tomislav, but thought that even heavily mythologized history can be useful information if presented with the proper caveats. It seems as if your research is as solid as possible considering the subject matter, so I would encourage you to re-write these sections as you see fit. Best, Tom Radulovich 23:44, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure how to proceed given that the page uses a short list format. Perhaps I should divide it into sections and then make the initial section more like an introduction rather than a terse list with links.

In any event, I found this information only by searching the web (but I have the advantage of knowing the native language and several resources aren't translated in English). I should probably first obtain one or two Croatian history books in order to see what is taught in schools. It may be somewhat biased given that it's given to kids only after governmental acceptance, but those books tend to include a clearer delineation between the important and confirmed data and the more tangential and conjectured data, simply because it would be a bigger embarassment if they got something wrong there... --Shallot 10:39, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)

In Einchardt Annals Borna was mentioned many times, but never as Croat. Ljudevit Posavski also was not mentioned as Croat. Einchardt mentioned Serbs in his Annals, but never Croats. Therefore we could not talk of rulers of Pannonian Croats . We could say rulers of Dalmatia. It is much more accurate.

You are conducting original research. That is not allowed on wikipedia. Please refrain from doing that. --Dijxtra 01:45, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Originally they are mentioned as rulers of Pannonia and rulers of Dalmatia. It is nonsense to say that they are rulers of Pannonian Croats. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Medule (talk • contribs)

Please, sign your comments with "~~~~". Well, if they didn't rule Croats, who did they rule? --Dijxtra 12:33, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

They were South Slavs. First mentioning of Croats in history is 852. Borna was duke of Guduscans and Ljudevit of Pannonians. There are no proof for statement that they were Croats.

First WRITTEN mention that we know of, yes. We know because this mention survives to present day. Lack of historical documents (particulary from the "dark ages") does not mean Croats did not exist, or didn't call themselves Croat before. Borna and Ljudevit were by all accounts Croatian nobles, and certainly not Serb or just Slav. The idea of nation did not exist before roughly the 16th century. Does this mean there were no Croats, Serbs, English, French, Chinese before that? No. Your argument isn't valid. I'm reverting to previous version. --Dr.Gonzo 21:14, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

So you dont have proof that these rulers were Croats, but you add here what somebody believes to be truth. In only historical documents about Ljudevit and Borna we could not find that Ljudevit and Borna were Croats. They are Slavs. You could not add in Wikipedia somebody belief that Ljudevit or Borna are Croats. There are no proof. Neutral point of view is to mention these rulers as rulers not of Pannonian or Dalmatian Croats, but as rulers of pannonia or dalmatia.

It is not NPOV if we can't agree on it. However, seen as some of the others have agreed that it is at least not harmful i won't make any reverts if we can come to a compromise. Please, refrain from further edits before discussing it on talk page. Thank you. --Dr.Gonzo 00:11, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

This has come to my attention - Croatian and Serbian wikipedia both list the rulers as Pannonian and Dalmatian Croats, so it seems consensus already exists. See Croatian Wikipedia "Croatian rulers article" and Serbian Wikipedia "Croatian rulers article" --Dr.Gonzo 00:45, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Monarchs of Hungary

I'm reluctant to point to the list of Hungarian rulers more prominently because of several things:

• that list doesn't have the same ordinal numbers: the Belas, the Stephens, the Gezas and the Andrews are shifted by -1 because Bela I, Stephen I, Geza I and Andrew I of Hungary didn't rule over Croatia. Possibly others.
• the Transylvanian princes are impertinent
• support for the Zapolyas probably wasn't as notable in Croatia

--Shallot 23:07, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Counts of Celje

The dates for the reigns of the Celje counts vary between this page and the Counts of Celje page, especially Hermann I and Hermann II. Tom Radulovich 19:02, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

If the Counts of Celje has the proper timeline, it was Frideric II and not I who ruled with Ulrik III. I corrected that. --Tone 07:09, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Naming convention

Hi!

PANONIAN suggested that we should discuss a general convention here about the usage of names like Zrinski/Zrínyi, or Lackfi/Lackovic.

I suggest that we use names accoding to the origin of the family, even if the article is related to an other country's history.

So we should use Zrinski, Frankopan, Babonic etc instead of Zrínyi, Frangepán and Babonics while Lackfi, Garai, and Újlaki instead of Lackovic, Gorjanski and Ilocki.

Opinions? 84.2.210.17 07:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Radich

I see no reason to list the Radich family history among the bans of Croatia. Someone can write an article about this family, but I will remove this content from here. --Koppany 17:51, 11 May 2007 (UTC)