Talk:List of regions by past GDP (PPP)

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[edit] So how was the Soviet Unions GDP calculated?

A little tough considering the prices were fixed. I know there are CIA estimates but the differences are huge. The USSR says military budget accounted for 5% of its GDP, the CIA says 50%. I mean c'mon.

-G —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.117.158.83 (talk) 22:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move or rename

I added the move or rename tag but not too sure how to list the article on WK:RM.. can someone help?--Kaio™ (talk) 20:59, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

This article relies heavily on one book. The article does not provide verity of source nor literature review on the topic of "Past GDP (PPP)", rather, it is a summery of one book. The article should be renamed to be (A review (or a summery) of "The World Economy: A Millennial Perspective" book) as the current name indicate that the article discuss the topic of "regions by past GDP (PPP)" while it merely lists quotations from one book. The article should also be moved to Wikibooks or Wikisource.--KS™ 15:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

  • Is data after 1900 accurate?
  • There should be enough information to get a basic estimates of GDP of all the country in the 20th century
  • A separate page should be made for national GDP from 1900-2000
  • It is very useful information is the information is correct!!!
  • Very interesting page, but the numbers on top of the 1913 table look out of order. 67.84.164.114 22:32, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Why is the Middle East grouped together with Korea? Sijo Ripa 21:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

The idea that the United States somehow lost GDP between 1600 and 1700 is just ridiculous.

  • Why is British India seperated from the UK?

This is an appalingly badly researched and flawed document. In my opionion it should just be scrapped.

After I read the original source of Angus Maddison(see here, page 35), I found that this socalled "List of Countries" is full of loopholes. We urgently need to rename the article title and seriously rewrite the content.

For example, the original source has no "East Asia" entry (maybe someone vandalized or distorted the quoted data). AND 'East Asia', 'Latin America', 'Eastern Europe', 'Middle East', 'N. America+Australia'(It's absurd!) are not countries and should not have any rank while comparing with countries like "Finland" and "Japan" at the same time, therefore it is inappropriate having a table in Ranking form.

I added an "accuracy disputed" tag and suggest using the original format adopted by Maddison/OECD itself with a new article title, maybe the one from the original sources: "Shares of World GDP, 20 Countries and Regional Totals, 0-1998 A.D."

  • Possibly Maybe Accurate

It is perfectly plausible that the United States would lose GDP during the 17th century. Being that the country didn't exist in 1600 (or 1500 when it first appears on the list) it is clear he is not referring to the country, but whatever political entities existed within the borders of the current USA. Being that most of the population was wiped out by epidemics after 1600, one would assume GDP declined as well.

[edit] Absurd Estimates

I consider most of these estimates as made out of thin air, with includes all then made before the late XXth century. How could you "measure" the gdp of such ancient economies as india and china, the ammount of information we have about their economies is nearly non existant since they did not use money in daily transactions and had no prices to make PPP. And simply because they were densely populated, he assumes that they were the weathiest regions in the planet, since he simply puts per capita incomes of 450 dollars for everybody before 1500. Also, he greatly underestimates the gdp of the roman empire, he assumes subsistence levels, something simply absurd for such advanced agricultural economy. Also, he computed the total population of the roman empire as only 45 million, lowest than all serios estimates, with put its population in the 65 million to 120 million range.

And he assumes a per capita income of only 450 dollars, with contrasts with the 2,000 dollar figure of Peter Termin (with was calculated using the rate of urbanization as and yardstick), also it is absolutely impossible to estimate per capita income with certain because of the desproportionality of price changes.

To his estimates, the roman empire had 20% of the global gdp, if Termin estimate is computed with the most accepted population estimate, the gdp of the roman empire would be 130 billion dollars, about 65% of the global gdp.--RafaelG 03:07, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Who is Peter Termin? deeptrivia (talk) 20:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, a mean the Economist Peter Temin.--RafaelG 01:16, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Some of the arguments in this disputed page seem to only be saying the the estimates of China and India are too large, and that the Roman Empire in europe should be given more due credit. However, all estimates show that India and China were the trading hubs of the world that brought in a large amount of revenue, the roman army never truly engaged in sea trade like these two nations, which could explain the discreptency. And saying that these countries are considered just for their population seems to have no scientific weight behind it. Is it not true for most of the era before 1 BC, europe had registered a very low per capital GDP while the chinese had already possessed relatively advanced technology and india was united under major kingdoms, the fractured nature of europe before the coming of the romans, just as the fractured nature of india when the british invaded, could have reduced the GDP considerably.

I believe silver, gold and copper coins were in use in India, and valued according to the prices of the metals themselves in barter value, while China used paper currency.

Apart from this, I have no idea how anyone could attach an exact number, and so reasons should be given.



@RafaelG "To his estimates, the roman empire had 20% of the global gdp, if Termin estimate is computed with the most accepted population estimate, the gdp of the roman empire would be 130 billion dollars, about 65% of the global gdp."

In that case you're ignoring the GDP of India and China. If you say that the population of Rome is ::incorrect that it isn't ~55-60 million, then the 50-55 million figure of the Han Dynasty isn't ::correct either. So even if the Roman empire had 120 million people, it still wouldn't have anything ::close to 65% of the world's gdp. You're just pulling numbers out of thin air there. Remember that ::the Romans, like the Han and India, were all primarily agricultural states. Trade was important but ::farming still provided the main source of income and taxation.

Intranetusa (talk) 01:48, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion Candidate

Is anyone going to put this article for deletion or is it all talk? This article is full of propaganda started and used by an Indian private company (India Brand Equity Foundation (IBEF)) to highlight the greatness of India (see also “Invisible side of India” on Youtube which is up loaded by the same people (IBEF) and refers to this article as evidence to India’s greatness). I doubt that anyone can learn anything useful from this article; it is no more than unreliable, un-credible targeted propaganda. Country names are not real (for that time) no real data to rely on (such as number of population and income) It is clear case of COI and data distortion to serve a commercial purpose I don't think Wikipedia is the place for such patriotic junk...! KS™ 17:08, 20 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shawishie (talk • contribs)


This is ridiculous - any kind of ppp comparison going back more than a hundred years is incredibly difficult to reliably calculate, and to go back to 1ce is absurd. No economic data whatsoever exists from this time, let alone sufficient quantities of information to permit comparative studies. This is fictional drivel, and is an arbitrary list of assumptions pulled out of thin air. This should be deleted. --Corinthian 17:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, even in the case of roman egypt with we have a very large ammount of papyrus preserved with mentions prices and financial data is impossible to make even a imprecise estimate for the total output of the economy.--RafaelG 21:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

This is as good or bad as any other estimate related to history. I think the assumptions involved must be clearly mentioned in the article. I don't see any rationale for deletion. deeptrivia (talk) 20:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

This page was created and used for commercial use by an Indian company (India Brand Equity Foundation (IBEF)). It is currently using this page as part of a advertising campaign. It is a clear case of COI and must be deleted--KS™ 00:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


These estimates appear to be influenced by nationalists of varying stripes. For example, according Colin McEvedy and Richard Jones' research in their 1978 Atlas of World Population History (Penguin), China had 50 million people to India's 34 million as of 1 AD (using modern geographic boundaries instead of 1 AD's political boundaries). I'd like to see the source that verifies the claim that China's per capita GDP was only 68% of India's back in 1 AD.

Furthermore, I challenge the idea that specie in circulation is an accurate measure of GDP. Russia should not be ranked higher than Japan on the 1600 chart (one of many egregious errors). Japan had a bigger population, more internal trade, a powerful state, and the productive capacity to build two fleets significantly larger than the Spanish Armada in the decade following 1588. Spain didn't have that kind of manufacturing power- nor did Russia, or really any power other than India, China, and perhaps France.

This whole list should be discarded for the nationalist clap-trap it is. Barring that, I would like to see a calculation as to how these numbers are arrived at. Is pre-modern GDP measured in trade activity, resource extraction, agricultural productivity, some other metric, or the combination of aforementioned factors?


7.3.06, -08:00 GMT -Khakjaan Wessington,

China's per-capita GDP today is about 51% of India's...

I do agree that historical GDP figures are almost meaningless, however, even rough estimates can be useful. I would not support the deletion of this article but rather a better explanation of how the numbers were produced. Most of the difficulties involved are similar to those of estimating GDP in largely subsistence-based economies today, or estimating the size of black- or gray-market economies. It makes sense to use a default value -- and $450 is reasonable -- to represent "subsistence," then supplement this value where additional data (on trade, manufacture, or specie) is available.Stuffisthings 17:32, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

This article should be deleted because it is impossible to calcule gdp for centuries ago since we do no have the data that is used to make gdp calculations, these numbers are all guesses.--RafaelG 04:40, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

The very moment I glanced at this article I wouldn't for a moment use it's data, not withstanding the claims about how it is impossible to come such figures, but simply for the reason that the nations stated did not exist in the same form. For example, since when was there a 'United Kingdom' in 1500, or a 'France' to term precisely or a 'Germany'... I could very easily carry on and list practically the whole bunch of nations, because these countries did not exist in the same manner that we understand today. I am sure this is entirely obvious to everyone that views this article. It would be far more accurate to state the countries in the lists as what they were known as in that precise period, thus increasing its potential usage when referring to history. Not for a moment should data be used when it is obvious you cannot compare the 'United Kingdom' and 'France' in, for example, 1500. There was no such kingdom that was united, as each country stood individually until 1707, and a country such as Germany was made up of very different territories to what we not it to be today. A more accurate term to use for Germany up to 1806 would be 'The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation,' as historians would understand what borders were thus being referred to.

[edit] Other References

Data from UN's National Accounts Main Aggregates Database : (Just for reference)

Estimates of GDP at current prices in Billion US Dollars

1970
1980
1990
2000
Rank Country GDP Rank Country GDP Rank Country GDP Rank Country GDP
— World 3,257.4 — World 11,771.2 — World 21,944.3 — World 31,654.6
1 US 1,025 1 US 2,768.9 1 US 5,757.2 1 US 9,764.8
2 USSR 402.7 2 Japan 1,062.8 2 Japan 3,039.7 2 Japan 4,746.1
3 Germany 208.7 3 USSR 928.4 3 Germany 1,711.9 3 Germany 1,900.2
4 Japan 204.4 4 Germany 915 4 France 1,231 4 UK 1,438.2
5 France 148.8 5 France 690.6 5 Italy 1,102.4 5 France 1,328
6 UK 123.6 6 UK 536.1 6 UK 989.6 6 China 1,080.7
7 Italy 107.7 7 Italy 448.8 7 Canada 574.2 7 Italy 1,074.8
8 China 91.5 8 China 301.5 8 Russia 569.7 8 Canada 714.5
9 Canada 85.1 9 Canada 265.3 9 Spain 526.4 9 Brazil 601.7
10 Brazil 67.1 10 Brazil 245.9 10 Brazil 438.3 10 Mexico 580.8
11 India 61 11 Spain 228.4 11 China 383 11 Spain 580.7
12 Australia 42.9 12 Mexico 207.7 12 India 324.3 12 S. Korea 511.7
13 Spain 40.2 13 India 183.3 13 Australia 310.5 13 India 464.9
14 Mexico 39.6 14 Netherlands 178.2 14 Netherlands 294.8 14 Australia 387.5
15 Netherlands 35.4 15 Australia 166.1 15 S. Korea 263.8 15 Netherlands 370.6
16 Sweden 34.8 16 Saudi Arabia 147.6 16 Mexico 262.7 16 Argentina 284.3
17 Argentina 31 17 Sweden 129.7 17 Sweden 240.2 17 Russia 259.7
18 Belgium 25.6 18 Belgium 121.8 18 Switzerland 235.8 18 Switzerland 246
19 Switzerland 22.6 19 Switzerland 111 19 Belgium 197.2 19 Sweden 239.6
20 Poland 20.7 20 Nigeria 92.1 20 Austria 197.2 20 Belgium 228.4

I don't think anyone can find accurate GDP statistics before late 40s. --Kerry7374 22:23, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Another reference.

Real Historical Gross Domestic Product (GDP) for Baseline Countries/Regions (in billions of 2000 dollars) 1971-2006

1970
1980
1990
2000
Rank Country GDP Rank Country GDP Rank Country GDP Rank Country GDP
— World 12,423 — World 17,736.6 — World 24,072.4 — World 31,716.6
1 US 3,803.3 1 US 5,211 1 US 7,120.5 1 US 9,817
2 Japan 1,787.1 2 Japan 2,765.4 2 Japan 4,130.8 2 Japan 4,746.1
3 Germany 977.8 3 Germany 1,278.1 3 Germany 1,586.6 3 Germany 1,870.3
4 UK 719.1 4 UK 872.1 4 UK 1,137.4 4 UK 1,439.4
5 France 614.3 5 France 850.7 5 France 1,086.1 5 France 1,308.4
6 Italy 515 6 Italy 734 6 Italy 918.1 6 China 1,080.7
7 USSR 319.6 7 USSR 435.4 7 USSR 550.1 7 Italy 1,074.8
8 Canada 263.7 8 Canada 400.2 8 Canada 527.6 8 Canada 713.8
9 Spain 228.5 9 Brazil 391.1 9 Brazil 455.9 9 Brazil 601.7
10 Mexico 178.3 10 Mexico 340.5 10 Spain 434.6 10 Mexico 581.3
11 Brazil 173.6 11 Spain 326.2 11 China 411.5 11 Spain 561.8
12 Netherlands 167.1 12 Netherlands 222.9 12 Mexico 407.3 12 S. Korea 511.9
13 Iran 166.3 13 Argentina 212.3 13 S. Korea 288.5 13 India 457.4
14 Switzerland 158.9 14 Australia 200.2 14 Netherlands 276.6 14 Australia 389.1
15 Argentina 158.7 15 Switzerland 179.9 15 Australia 271.4 15 Netherlands 370.6
16 Australia 144.3 16 China 170.8 16 India 268.3 16 Taiwan 307.8
17 Sweden 127.3 17 Iran 156 17 Switzerland 220.4 17 Iran 303.5
18 India 113.2 18 Sweden 154.5 18 Iran 203 18 Argentina 284.2
19 Belgium 107.9 19 India 151.9 19 Sweden 191.6 19 Russia 259.7
20 China 101.8 20 Belgium 150.2 20 Belgium 183.7 20 Switzerland 246.2
  • Source: World Bank World Development Indicators, adjusted to 2000 base and estimated and projected values developed by the Economic Research Service. [1]

--Kerry7374 19:00, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, the article is not a "list of countries". They only have 14 western European countries + Russia + US + Mexico + China + Japan and + India. Even no Canada, Brazil and Australia. That's inappropriate to make ranks here. --Kerry7374 19:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion or refocusing

Apart from all the other faults mentioned above on inaccuracy and wild speculation and inavailability of data, the article is also misleading because political boundaries have been extremely variable in the past. When one says "India" in reference to the patchwork of kingdoms existing around 1 AD, it is more than inaccurate, it is misleading. Also, political boundaries have a great effect on the GDP of a particular nation.

In addition, it makes no sense to single out certain years -- 1600, 1700, etc. -- just because they are "round", as this does not take into account periodic troughs or crests in economies.

These factors, coupled with the inaccuracies and biases (the data is from just one source, for instance) mean that the article's data prior to 1950 should be discarded wholesale, and a more detailed overview of 1950-2000 be substituted, for this is the era for which meaningful and widely accepted GDP statistics can be obtained, and the era in which the political divisions of the world settled down close enough to modern boundaries to permit meaningful comparisons.

laddiebuck 23:29, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

The very moment I glanced at this article I wouldn't for a moment use it's data, not withstanding the claims about how it is impossible to come such figures, but simply for the reason that the nations stated did not exist in the same form. For example, since when was there a 'United Kingdom' in 1500, or a 'France' to term precisely or a 'Germany'... I could very easily carry on and list practically the whole bunch of nations, because these countries did not exist in the same manner that we understand today. I am sure this is entirely obvious to everyone that views this article. It would be far more accurate to state the countries in the lists as what they were known as in that precise period, thus increasing its potential usage when referring to history. Not for a moment should data be used when it is obvious you cannot compare the 'United Kingdom' and 'France' in, for example, 1500. There was no such kingdom that was united, as each country stood individually until 1707, and a country such as Germany was made up of very different territories to what we not it to be today. A more accurate term to use for Germany up to 1806 would be 'The Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation,' as historians would understand what borders were thus being referred to. If such discrepances cannot be altered than this document has no historical withstanding and should be highly considered for deletion.

Rock_Rose 11:24, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for backing me up. I think the whole thing is taken from a book someone read and decided to type in. Maybe we should add a VfD template. laddiebuck 00:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] agreed

we should write a caveat to this article... depending on the economic source that a person can quote, these countries can have different rankings. For instance, in many economic tallies, the chinese empire, the roman empire, the mongol empire, would have occupied the number one spot depending on the time period. Further, it is odd that we are using only one source of economic information... Not only that, the subcontinent of india for most of the pre-1945 era was subdivided into various kingdoms and it wasn't until the moghuls came along that the country looked similar to what is seen today. Don't know how that economist made these numbers. I'll add a disclaimer to the top of the page to reflect our discussions. Kanga1 22:34, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I dont understand why the validity of these data is any business of wikipedia to assess - the source of it is clearly indicated, this should be enough. If someone can quote a review of the book used in this article that criticises its assesment, this should be mentioned too of course. And if other data by other analists can be shown, that should be included too, for comparison. Anything more is imo against the no original research policy. Its no business of any editor here to asses the credibility of the author, unless very specific instances and/or published critiques of those assesments can be quoted. It would be great if other sources of informations were used too, provided there are comparable analysis. I find the fact that post-medieval europe is calculated fragmentary, state by state a greater problem than making imo logical summation of values for various states of antient india - aggregating it so makes the data imo more readable; more comparable. Who would wish to have a precise idea of some ancient indian state's economic status comparative to other such entities, to varrant discomodating someones interested in aggregated india's status?--83.131.155.121 04:14, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Between World Wars

I notice that there are no statistics for the countries' GDP in between WWI and WWII. I think it would be very interesting to include a table with data from, say, 1920,'30, or '40, if possible of course. Daniel Montin 10:16, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bizarre boundaries

It is absurd that two of the largest empires (Abbasid Caliphate and Ottoman Empire) in world history aren't even listed in the centuries they were simply the most powerful countries on earth. Instead they are probably scattered into West Asia, Eastern Europe, and North Africa. However the comparable territory of Roman Empire is kept intact. No caliphate in 1000, no Ottoman Empire in 1600, who are they kidding?

Other that that, in the 20th century listings, the same few European countries seem to be listed repeatedly while there were many other larger economies.

Funny, "two of the largest empires " are unable to provide info to Wikipedia, who to blame?
So should we contact the Porte and ask them to submit their financials? ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cruist22 (talk • contribs) 17:58, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] add middle east data

there seems to be a gap in the info

How is China's GDP per capita about 51% of India's today? Where did u pull this from?

[edit] Urgent need for balance

It seems that this list is based on the work of one economic historian, Angus Maddison, which is controversial at best. I have noticed is that Maddison accomplishments (which are substantial regardless) have been finessed here and there. Thus he is referred to as "director of OECD," which he never was. As I say on the Talk:India page, Madison was an undergraduate at Cambridge, England; attended McGill and Johns Hopkins for graduate work, but didn't finish graduate school; thereafter joined OEEC (later OECD) in 1953 and became Assistant Director of Economic Development in 1963; left OECD in 1964 and became a consultant for the next 15 years, before joining Groningen University in 1978 and remaining there until his retirement. Maddison's book The World Economy: Historical Statistics has been criticized in many circles. Here are excerpts from a review by Brian Haig (Australian National University), the last sentence of which is a withering assessment of Maddison's Australian statistics:

This article needs balance more than anything else. A Wikipedia article or list should not be based on one idiosyncratic work. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Here are excerpts of the review of Maddison's earlier book: Caldwell, John C. (Sept. 2002). "Reviewed Work(s): The World Economy: A Millennial Perspective by Angus Maddison", Population and Development Review, Vol. 28, No. 3., pp. 559-561.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 17:47, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

And excerpts from a review by W. W. Rostow of a still earlier work by Maddison: "Reviewed Work(s): Phases of Capitalist Development. by Angus Maddison," The Journal of Economic History, Vol. 45, No. 4. (Dec., 1985), pp. 1026-1028.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 18:19, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Finally, excerpts from W. J. MacPherson's review: "Reviewed Work(s): Class Structure and Economic Growth. India and Pakistan since the Moghuls by Angus Maddison." The Economic Journal, Vol. 82, No. 328. (Dec., 1972), pp. 1470-1472.

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1820 data is nuts

It is impossible for French GDP to be merely $38 billion as that implies wages were at par with China then. The correct figure should be atleast $90 billion (or 50% of China) considering the large population of France and wages had climbed to atleast 6 times that of China then. Anwar 15:02, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually we have detailed figures for what wages were for England AND France. http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/bon/ESFDB/RJB/RJB.htm http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/bon/ESFDB/OBRIEN/obrien.html You can compare them here. You will note that in both cases the data on this page is wrong. --Gothicform 14:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1870 data is nuts

By 1870, Indian GDP is widely believed to have shrunk to 80% of the USA due to collapse of central authority of the Mughal dyasty since 1720. Anwar 15:10, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Far East v. Korea and Mongolia

I think it is better to say Korea and Mongolia instead of saying Far East. According to the Far East article, there are only six countries in the Far East, which are Mongolia, China, Taiwan, North Korea, South Korea, and Japan. However, China and Taiwan have been one unified country until 1949, and the two Koreas were an unified country until 1948. So it is better to call it Korea and Mongolia.

→ I don't agree. I don't know the definition of "Far East" in this context. Probably, i guess it includes more nations than what you mentioned. Even if the GDPs of Korea are Mongolia are added, this value is still much smaller than that of Japan, so, I think your claim is wrong. My guess is that "Far East" in this context includes other nations such as Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Vietnam, Indonesia... etc.

This page is very useful, thank you. We don't know if it is accurate or not, but it is very useful indeed.

[edit] Inclusion of Korea

Considering the kingdoms of Korea were much richer and much more powerful than Japan until the 15th century, I find it surprising Japan has a GDP figure but not Korea... Intranetusa (talk) 01:42, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion of the Turkish/Ottoman Empire

Where is the economy of this major empire of the medieval period? It needs to be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.249.59.94 (talk) 21:12, 21 April 2008 (UTC)