Talk:List of regicides of Charles I

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I moved this page because it was going to have to be moved anyway (the capitalisation was wrong) and I thought this might be a bit more neutral. No objection to categories or the other language. DJ Clayworth 19:28, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] List of signatories to the death warrant of Charles I

(written without seeing the above) Thanks for moving this article from underneath me - I thought the article name was already long enough as List of regicides, etc., but now it is even longer.

You'll note that the article contains, or was intended to contain, a section with details of associates who were prosecuted as Regicides even though they were not signatories. As such, the new name is inappropriate. Please revisit the article and remove this section.

Also, this article is filed in categ Regicide under Charles I. If you read the category description, you'll notice that the current scope of the category is Charles I - as such this article is a major article in the category as currently defined. Please revisit the category and adjust its scope. Thanks, Ian Cairns 19:39, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ian

Sorry about that, List of signatories to the death warrant of Charles I seemed like an appropriate title based on the content I saw. If you are going to expand beyond the signatories feel free to move this elsewhere. You can do it yourself - use the 'move' button, usually at the top of the page. I suggest List of regicides of Charles I. DJ Clayworth 19:45, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

DJC - Thanks. As a sysop, I'm fully aware of the Move function. With the skin I'm using, there are no buttons at top or elsewhere. My comments still stand. Regards, Ian Cairns 23:29, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)
I have no objection to any of the changes you suggest. And no sarcasm intended about the 'move' function - I didn't look to see how many contributions you had made. DJ Clayworth 23:34, 16 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Possible inconsistencies in the list

At the moment the article lists the Clerks Andrew Broughton and John Phelpes as dead. What is the source for this because the house of common thought them alive on 14 May 1660

House of Commons Journal Volume 8 14 May 1660: Exceptions from Bill of Pardon

Resolved, That all those Persons who sat in Judgment upon the late King's Majesty, when the Sentence was pronounced for his Condemnation, be forthwith secured.
Resolved, That Mr. John Cooke, Andrew Broughton, John Phelpes, and Edward Dendy, be forthwith secured.

See also House of Commons Journal Volume 8, 28 May 1660 Proceedings against the Regicides "A LETTER from Robert Fowler, from Rochester, of the 26th of May 1660, certifying, that he hath made Stay of Two Trunks, Two Hampers, Thirteen Bundles of Bedding, and Hangings, with some Chairs, in all Twenty-seven Parcels, of the Goods of Mr. Andrew Broughton, one of the Clerks in the High Court of Justice, when his late Majesty was there arraigned, was read. Ordered, That it be referred to the Members of this House, of the Council of State, to take care that the said Goods, and also the Goods of Mr. Phelpes, and Mr. Dendy, be inventoried and secured."

This suggests that Andrew Broughton was alive at the time. Edward Dendy was the sergeant-at-arms at the time of the trial and took part as part of the pomp and circumstance of the affair. He was later, during the Inerregnum, given land in Ireland in lue of pay. --Philip Baird Shearer 18:18, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

House of Lords Journal Volume 11 4 June 1660, Proclamation for apprehending the late King's Judges:

  • John Lisle, Alive
  • 48 William Say, Esquires, Alive
  • 11 Sir Hardresse Waller, Alive -- Spelt Hardress Waller in the current list
  • 39 Valentine Wanton, Alive --Spelt Valentine Walton in the current list
  • 4 Edward Whalley, Esquires,
  • 8 Sir John Bourcher Knight, Alive -- Spelt John Bourchier in current list
  • William Heveningham Esquire, Alive -- Spelt William Hevingham in current list
  • Isaac Pennington Alderman of London, Alive, Commisoner -- spelt Isaac Penington in the current list
  • 31 Henry Martin, Alive -- Spelt Henry Marten in the current list
  • 36 John Barkstead, Alive
  • 44 Gilbert Millington, Alive
  • 30 Edmond Ludlow, Alive
  • 13 John Hutchinson, Esquires, Alive
  • 5 Sir Michaell Livesay Baronet, Alive -- spelt Michael Livsey in the current list
  • 22 Robert Titchbourn, Alive -- spelt Robert Tichborne in the current list
  • 25 Owen Roe, Alive -- spelt Owen Rowe in the current list
  • 45 Rob't Lilborne, Alive spelt Robert Lilburne in the current list
  • 27 Adrian Scroope, Alive
  • 6 John Okey, Alive
  • 18 John Hughson, Alive -- spelt John Hewson in the current list
  • 14 Will. Goffe, Alive -- spelt William Goffe
  • Cornelius Holland, -- MISSING not in the current list
  • John Carew, -- DEAD according to the current list
  • Miles Corbett, Alive --spelt Miles Corbet in the current list
  • Henry Smith, Alive
  • Thomas Wogan, Alive
  • Edmond Harvey, -- MISSING not in the current list
  • 57 Thomas Scott, Alive -- spelt Thomas Scot in the current list
  • 35 Will. Cawley, Alive -- spelt William Cawley
  • 55 John Downes, Alive
  • Nicholas Love, Alive
  • 32 Vincent Potter, Alive
  • 29 Augustine Garland, Alive
  • 38 John Dixwell, Alive
  • 45 George Fleetwood, Alive
  • 40 Symon Meyne, Alive -- spelt Simon Mayne in the current list
  • 28 James Temple, Alive
  • 16 Peter Temple, Alive
  • 24 Daniell Blagrave, Alive -- spelt Daniel Blagrave in the current list
  • 56 Thomas Wayte, Esquires, Alive -- spelt Thomas Waite in the current list

The above "being deeply guilty of that most detestable and bloody Treason, in sitting upon, and giving Judgement against the Life of, Our Royal Father"

  • John Cooke, Alive.

who was employed therein as Solicitor,

  • Andrew Broughton -- DEAD in the current list
  • John Phelpes -- DEAD in the current list

who were employed under the said Persons as Clerks, and

  • Edward Dendy -- MISSING not in the current list

who attended them as Serjeant at Arms, "have, out of the Sense of their own Guilt, lately fled and obscured themselves" --Philip Baird Shearer 23:51, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

The list above was prepared early in the process so some of them my have been found innocent. But one which crossed checked was John Carew because he was HDQ in October 1660.

House of Commons Journal Volume 8 9 June 1660 Has a list of some of the commissioners who sat in court but were not present at the meeting where the others signed the death warrant:

  •  ? James Challener, 20th, 22nd,22nd Afternoon,
  • [51] Thomas Challener, 20th,22nd Afternoon, 23rd, 23rd Afternoon, 26th, 27th, 27th afternoon signed sentence.
  •  ? John Dove, 26th
  •  ? John Fry. 20th, 22nd, 22nd Afternoon, 23rd, 23rd Afternoon, 25tth Sentence drawn.
  •  ? Fra. Lassells,20th, 22nd, 22nd Afternoon,
  •  ? Thomas Lister, 20th,
  •  ? Sir James Harrington: 23rd, 23rd Afternoon
  • Judge but did not sign: Sir Henry Mildmay: 23rd, 23rd Afternoon, 25th, 26th Sentence greed
  • Judge but did not sign: Wm. Lord Munson: 20th, 22nd, 22nd Afternoon, 23rd Afternoon, 26th
  •  ? Sir Gilbert Pickering: 22nd Afternoon, 23rd, 23rd Afternoon
  • Judge but did not sign: Robert Wallop, 22nd, 22nd Afternoon, 23rd Afternoon

The questionmarks indicate that they are currently not included in the article. --Philip Baird Shearer 21:25, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

See also [House of Lords Journal Volume 11 7 February 1662 Attainted Persons brought to the Bar]

  • Augustine Garland, Henry Smith, Henry Martin ,Robert Titchborne, James Temple, Thomas Wayte, Peter Temple, Gilbert Myllington, William Heveningham, John Downes, George Fleetwood.
  • Attainted Persons to be carried back to The Tower. The Lieutenant of The Tower gave the House an Account, "That Four of the Persons attainted for the aforesaid High Treason, videlicet, Owen Row, Isaac Pennington, Symon Mayne, and Vincent Potter, are lately dead; and Edmond Harvey, Sir Hardress Waller and Robert Lylborne, are not now in his Custody in The Tower, but are removed to other Prisons. But as for Thomas Wogan, he never was in his Custody."

--Philip Baird Shearer 14:11, 1 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Regicides?

It might be an exception in this particular case, but doesn't "regicide" mean the killing of a king, not the killers? Not to mention the fact that the people on this list did not directly kill the king at all; they merely signed the death warrant. There are two main problems I have with calling these people "regicides". First, a king can only be killed once, so writing "the regicides of Charles I" is like writing "the murders" or "the killings". It should not be plural. Secondly, as I said, regicide is an act, not a person, so rather than this being a list of killings, it should be a list of killers. No? LordAmeth 18:27, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

"The broad definition of Regicide is the deliberate killing of a king, or the person responsible for it." (From our article on regicide.) Proteus (Talk) 18:38, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

The use of Regicide to mean a person, as well as the act of killing is widespread and well documented in several dicionaries.

  1. OED, noun 1 the killing of a king. 2 a person who kills a king.
  2. Cambridge Dictionary. A person who kills a king, or the act of killing a king
  3. Merriam-Webster. 1 : one who kills a king, 2 : the killing of a king

--Dmol 18:53, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Also see the links higher up this talk page to the use of the word "regicides" in Parliament. --Philip Baird Shearer 20:08, 18 December 2005 (UTC)