Talk:List of plants used as medicine

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[edit] Huh?

Science is a newcomer to medicine. People have used herbs for millennia for their medicinal properties. It's unreasonable to stand at this point in history and insist that our standards of scientific validity be met before we're allowed to note these properties in an encyclopedic article. These are medicinal herbs. People use them as medicine. They have since before Columbus was born. This article lists these herbs and why people use and have used them. Thanks in large part to your comments, the article now thoroughly documents where these uses are noted by people qualified to note them.

Another problem, I suppose, is that it's hard to distinguish between:

  • Properties that have been ascribed to herbs, but which are shown to be illusory under scientific investigation
  • Properties that have been ascribed to herbs, and which scientists have not examined to date
  • Properties that have been ascribed to herbs, and which scientists have verified using their methodologies

Doing so would make a heck of an article, I readily admit, but not one that I'm prepared to put the time into researching. I'm inclined to leave it at "these are reasons why people have used, or current use these herbs medicinally".

I'd also like to suggest that, with your permission, we move this discussion off your talk page to Talk:List of medicinal herbs (with a different header).

How about let's move on now? Waitak 02:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure where to start, so I just go from the beginning.

I'll reply inline.
  • Science is a newcomer to medicine? WHAT????? Medicine is a discipline of biology, has been for two thousand years, and biology is a disciple of science.
Please don't shout. What I meant was that it is only in relatively recent history that the use of the scientific method has become the standard by which medical claims are judged. In Hong Kong, where I've spent the last couple of decades, you can go to any local shopping center and buy herbs that people have been using for 5,000 years to treat a whole range of ailments. Usually the other half of the herbal store is a western-style pharmacy. Some of these herbs have been studied scientifically. Others haven't. In all cases, people buy them because, somewhere along the way, somebody noticed that, most of the time, if you use this plant in this way, it has this affect on most people. In parts of Africa, where the average income is something less that US$1 a day, people use wormwood when they get parasites. Works great. They've been using it in this way for millennia. In both cases, it's not urban legends, gossip or magic. It's biochemistry that nobody's gotten around to studying just yet. Somebody probably ought to.
I'm not devaluing science or scientists. I'm saying that the measure of scientific rigor that our society demands before accepting something as true is, while powerful and important, relatively recent - and unusual - historically.
  • People have used herbs for millennia. Good for them. Let's prove how useful they are or is it just urban legend. I'm open to either direction.
Sorry, I don't accept the dichotomy. There is more in the world than "proven scientifically" and "urban legend". Take another look at the list that I gave you above, for example ("Properties that have been ascribed...").
  • " It's unreasonable to stand at this point in history and insist that our standards of scientific validity be met before we're allowed to note these properties in an encyclopedic article. " If you're claiming that, then it meets the standards of pseudoscience. According to NPOV standards on bias, then you are requesting that all editors overlook a neutral viewpoint. That is not the way of an encyclopedia.
Not at all. And to the contrary, summarily deleting all of the references because you don't like what they say strikes me as evidence of some degree of bias.
  • Pharmaceuticals (or what you call medicinal herbs) require thorough testing for efficacy and safety before you can make a claim. If you want to list out your herbs, go forward. If you're going to make a claim, don't bother.
It seems to me that you're saying, "Okay, so XXX,000,000 people in Africa (or China, or India, or pre-colonial America...) use(d) neem (or garlic or wormwood or whatever) for medicinal properties. Sorry, these haven't been proven scientifically, so keep it the heck out Wikipedia."
  • If a scientist has not studied it, and some piece of gossip exists, it doesn't make it a fact, it just means the hypothesis or theory hasn't been studied. And I wonder why not.
There we go again. It's either science or gossip? Sorry.
  • Scientist use a scientific method to validate or test an hypothesis. That's the preferred way to make a medical claim.
Sure, and the article ought to include it whenever it's available.

Please, if you're going to post something about magic, please do. But science is a method by which we logically test something. If you're right about these herbs, then what's wrong with science? Orangemarlin 05:53, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

This would be a lot easier to discuss without the slapshots. Could you be a little more civil, please?
Nothing is wrong with science. I'm a published scientist, and understand full well how science works. There's also nothing wrong with ethnobotanical scholarship. Waitak 14:12, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I definitely agree with Waitak, there are a lot of documented and empirically-derived uses for plants as medicine (hence, medicinal plants) that have been used safely and effectively for hundreds if not thousands of years across cultural and geographic boundaries with similar if not parallel indications. If this is not evidence for the efficacy of plants as medicine without use of the scientific method (which by the way, is based upon experiment followed by observation, leading to a hypothesis).

So, millions of people around the world rely on traditional medicine and herbalism for their health, and marlin is saying that they're basically idiots by adding a not of skepticism with everything he 'contributes' to articles that he does not agree with. By the way, if you do a little research into the subject, you'll see that the effectiveness of many herbs has not been scientifically tested or have pure compounds isolated since pharmaceutical companies cannot find a profit motive as patentability is an issue. Wiki wiki1 08:35, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:NPOV

  1. The article's references to not adhere to standards of WP:VERIFY. The articles used as sources are either secondary, represent foreign language articles, and are questionable.
  2. The article exhibits scientific bias discounting scientific analysis for unsubstantiated claims.
  3. The article does not utilize reliable sources. To quote, "exceptional claims require exceptional sources."
  4. The article relies upon fringe theories.

I am not saying this article shouldn't exist. I'm not saying the article shouldn't have reference to history knowledge. What I am saying is that it violates NPOV to make medical claims that have not been tested, verified and peer-reviewed. There must be caveats, unless the evidence is clear like with respect to St. Johns Wort. Orangemarlin 06:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

This is interesting, if you are familiaer with the litrature you'll find that this list is just skimming the surface of known medicinal herbs (that is herbs which have been used by some cultures for their medicinal properties). The Plants for a Future site list something like 3000 medicinal plants, all of which are referenced by numerious other sources. Dr Duke's ethnobotony database is one of the most authorative sources in the field and lists a similar number of plants. A medline search will find numerious scientific papers on all these plants.
It seems very odd to go from a version where a start at individual references hence better meating WP:VERIFY to one with just general references. I've reverted back to the better referenced version and added a link to Wikipedia:Medical disclaimer. --Salix alba (talk) 09:09, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
See what you think of a compromise that might help the NPOV. Orangemarlin 14:30, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I believe that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia for knowledge for all people to access. So, when you say that this article is/was all point-of-view, etc. you're really placing your own beliefs in place of those of those that have been well substantiated both scientifically and empirically. No one ever outlined wikipedia as a website for primary medical information, there may simply exist a list of plants, and their traditional medicinal uses; it seems, however, that you have a conflict of interest that is causing you to vandalize this, and many other pages simply because you haven't looked deeply enough into this different world from 'Western medicine'. Wiki wiki1 08:40, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I don't have a problem marking what has been scientifically verified, but currently the article is presented as it the only POV which matters, discounting the extensive ethnobotony research of Duke and others. Indeed science is based on observation and ethobotony uses are important observations. We are actually getting close to WP:CENSOR here.
Ways forward: the table could be altered to have two columns: scientific status; traditional uses. Another suggestion that I've had off wiki is to create a seperate lists List of traditional medicinal plant uses. --Salix alba (talk) 09:43, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vague claims

What precisely is tonic supposed mean? If this article is to go anywhere we need to avoid such vague hand-wavery as "tonic" or "ointment". That, and assuming that just because a herb has been used for particular ailment, that it's in any way beneficial for that ailment, unless there are good double-blind clinical trials supporting that use. ornis 13:18, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

The article, as it stands, documents ethnobotanical medicinal uses of plants. I certainly agree that "tonic" isn't a useful word in modern medicine, but there's a wealth of documentary evidence that the concept exists and is ascribed to particular plants in a number of medical traditions, both historically and currently, in various parts of the world. I think that the controversy over this article boils down to this:
  • One set of editors (including myself) is trying to document what properties traditional medicine practitioners have ascribed to plants that they particularly value. Speaking only for myself, the motivation for doing so is that - who knows? - maybe some of them actually do have these properties, and it's probably worth paying attention. Some plants clearly do have medicinal properties. Garlic, for example, became the principal antibiotic during World War I, when supplies of more powerful, modern drugs dried up. There's a huge body of knowledge that I think is important to record. In cases where these plants have been shown not to have these properties, this ought to be noted in the article.
  • Another set of editors strongly believes that no mention of medicinal properties should be made without peer-reviewed scientific papers that categorically demonstrate these properties. In my opinion,this leaves no room for any treatment of traditional medicine, from any POV other than rejecting it out of hand. That's clearly not in the spirit of Wikipedia. There's no POV involved in saying, "These four books say that this plant was used by these people for these purposes."
I should add that summarily deleting all references, particularly when the person who did so is the very same person who demanded them in the first place, comes perilously close to - sorry - vandalism. Even with the best of interpretations, it's hard to see evidence of good faith in some of the recent edits. Waitak 13:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Two separate editors reverted you, because they are concerned that the references you've provided are not from reliable sources. And again, the fact that someone believes a herb has certain properties isn't a license to repeat that claim as though it were true if there's no scientific evidence to back it up. ornis 14:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Two editors put the references back, two editors wiped out all of the references - not just the ones I'd added. I'd love to see some evidence that people have actually looked at these references. Hirt and M'Pia, Duke and Foster and Duke (1983) are all wonderful references, for example. Waitak 14:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a difference between peer-reviewed claims and secondary and unreliable sources. However, we need to work through this issue to make this article better. I spent two minutes with just St. John's Wort and found maybe 20 outstanding references. And none of them were some ancient Chinese text which fails as a reference on so many points. Here's a compromise.
  1. First of all, if you're going to use "medicinal" get rid of the new age crap. "Digestive" means nothing to anyone--if you believe that it reduces acidity, then say it that way. If it's a laxative, say that way.
  2. Next, let's create three columns: A) herbal properties with peer-reviewed journal articles supporting the claims (and only the claims stated in the article, and none of this generic nonsense like digestive); B) properties that have been shown illusory under scientific investigation; and finally, C) properties that have not been verified.
  3. Some herbs may fit in all three categories. Let's do it that way.
I think this a fair compromise that helps the NPOV and everything. But we have to be fair to each other's side in this process. Let's clean the article, and add back as we show a reference. If it is scientifically tested, then get peer-reviewed journals to show it. And, I do not consider the Journal of alternative medicine to be a reliable reference. We can get a very nice article, one which sets a standard if we can all work in this manner. Orangemarlin 14:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm happy to compromise. I don't agree to wiping clean all of the references, however. I can't believe that you've actually looked at these before wiping them. I also object to characterizing the properties as "scientific", "illusory" or "unconfirmed". Snopes uses "T", "TB", "F" and "FB" for urban legends. (I spent a chunk of my life debunking them.) Perhaps something like that would work?
I'll work with you on this, but I'd like to see a little evidence of something besides a bulldozer as your editing tool of choice. Waitak 14:33, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
By the way, Waitak, you cannot be accusing, even in an off-handed way, long-time editors of vandalism. User:FeloniousMonk is a long-time admin for this project, and takes NPOV on principle. He has berated me in the past for not following NPOV, and if he's reverting here, he has balanced all objections, and agrees the article is POV. Deleting the references to get this article right is not a problem, they all exist in history. All of us can add it back under the new format. I agree that science can be pig-headed at times, but I also think that fighting a battle by claiming science is wrong is not a battle that can be won. There are herbs out there that have some supporting evidence, some have scientifically supported evidence, and some have been debunked. All deserve a mention. And I'll ignore your last comment, thought it is a personal attack. It's time to relax, calm down, and establish verified and reliable sources. Orangemarlin 14:36, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Three categories are sufficient. I'll stand strongly on Scientific and unconfirmed. Illusory probably is harsh, but we do need a proper word there to indicate that it has been debunked. Remember your opinion is fine, but it's just a POV. Find verified and reliable sources, and no one will fight this battle. The compromise is that there is a section to allow all of us to edit in unverified claims. Orangemarlin 14:38, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest that illusory has npov problems. However a category of scientifically falsified would be useful. I would suggest possibly the slightly more unwieldly "folk-cures disconfirmed by science" or something similar. I would furthermore point out that Wikipedia does not care if science is being pig-headed or whether any other system is being pigheaded. Wikipedia cares about verifiability, not truth. JoshuaZ 14:43, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

(ri) Illusory bothered me a bit too, I've changed it to falsified, is that satisfactory to everyone? ornis 14:54, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

My apologies for anything remotely like a personal attack. I am strongly committed to civility in life in general, and WP in particular. I also hope that you don't see any claim in my responses that "science is wrong". I've certainly had no intention of making any such claim. Rather, I think that there's a lot that science hasn't gotten around to yet - even said that, I think.
You're right, as well, that the references are in the history. It seems to me that we're moving toward an article that says:
  • These pharmaceuticals have been used for these reasons:
  • Some of them have been verified by science
  • Others have been shown not to have these properties by science
I don't see the need to add "Some have not yet been examined by scientists", since it's evident from the above. That's a bit of what I was trying to get at with the reference to Snopes.
As for references, if the article is going to say the above, we must have verifiable references that back up the historical uses of these pharmaceuticals. I've put in a fair bit of work trying to provide them. Orangemarlin keeps deleting them, and then inserting a claim that the article is unreferenced. Can you see how that might appear disingenuous?
As an aside, I'd also like to see the article note in which medical traditions these plants have been used for which purposes. I have as little respect for new age ... stuff... as you do. Distinguishing between neowhatever and traditional medical practices that date back thousands of years would be a good thing. Waitak 15:03, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, a quick note. On what basis do you assert that horehound is not an expectorant? A quick search turned up thousands of references to this particular usage (this one for example). Waitak 15:11, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I was just shuffling stuff around to fix the table. ornis 15:16, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Waitak..relax a bit. It's going to be a an experiment in progress a lot of times. People will be moving references around, changing categories. That's the spirit of consensus. Orangemarlin 15:47, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me we really have three things in this article: 1) medicinal plants currently used today, 2) medicinal plants which have scietifically verified properties, 3) traditional/ethnobotony uses and uses from non western systems Traditional Chinese medicine, Ayurveda. To base the table just on a Scientific POV discounts traditional uses and could be part of a pro-western systematic bias.
I'd also like to ask whether we should really be using primary sources (that is individual journal articles) as opossed to secondary sources which review several journal articles. Taking just one trial is week evidence either way. WP:PSTS covers this in more details. Thats one of the reasons I added a link to National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine which has several short articles reviewing current state of scientific understanding.
I'm also not sure on the title Herb implies a particular type of plant, yet we have trees like hawthorn listed. A better title might be List of medicinal plants. --Salix alba (talk) 16:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I didn't know science was either anti-Chinese or not used in china. If this is so, I'd love to know. I understand the point you're trying to make, but it's Wikpedia's standards to require verification by reliable sources. Secondary sources aren't so reliable. Secondary sources that review primary sources in a peer-reviewed journal are acceptable. And that NIH center...let's not go there. It was a political toss over the side, and no notable scientists are part of the center. Orangemarlin 16:40, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
You're putting words in his mouth. He said nothing like "science is anti-Chinese" nor "science is not used in China". There are very probably more scientists in China than there are college students in most other countries. Traditional Chinese medicine has grown over a period of thousands of years. The basis upon which it was established predates, by millennia, the emergence of peer-reviewed journal articles as the sole criterion for establishing validity. The two medical practices exist side by side in Chinese communities to this day. You seem quite determined to equate "not scientifically verified" with "not valid", as above when you present dichotomies like science/gossip, science/urban legend and science/magic, in the face of multiple attempts to present something more balanced. That, good sir, is a very strong POV! Waitak 17:52, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Before you start accusing me of anything, and I've ignored a lot of personal attacking from you, you really need to read neutral POV, specifically the section on undue weight, fringe theories, reliable sources and verifiability. Tradition, though can be discussed, does not make it valid. Wikipedia does not endeavor to balance all POV's as if they are all equally valid. Based on your logic, then Holocaust denial would be equal to the Holocaust. Science is not magical, it is a process through which you ascertain whether a hypothesis can be tested and, if it can be, what are the results of that testing. If an herb or plant can due what you claim, it should be tested, as many have been. I am fairly consistent in all articles that I edit. If you read the article Psuedoscience you will see what you're doing. Attack the study rather than analyze the results. Sometimes Chinese medicine got it wrong. Sometimes traditional medicine got it wrong. That's while an independent methodology that lacks biase is utilized, like science. Science has NO moral stance, it just is a method to analyze a hypothesis. Orangemarlin 18:17, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry... your edit summary says that you were responding to an attack. Help me out here. What, in what I just wrote, did you see as an attack? I'm baffled. I have, of course, read each of the articles that you quote. I believe in them, and hold to them in my edits. My objection was to the loaded words you've used ("gossip", "urban legend", "magic") in this discussion. I know what pseudoscience is, and it's ungracious of you to accuse me of indulging in it. And the Holocaust denial comment was decidedly below the belt.
"Attacking the study"? Sorry? Find me a single example where I've said that a claim must be true for any reason that you would object to. I've bent over backwards to tell you that all I'm claiming is: there exists or existed a significant group of people who used these plants for these reasons. At your insistance, we're now extending that to "... and science has this to say about these reasons". So how, precisely, do you see me indulging in any of the things you accuse me of? It's fine to tell me to "relax", but would you please stop all these accusations?
I'm going to bow out of this for a while. The cost of trying to help here is rapidly exceeding what I can afford to spend. Hopefully when the dust eventually settles, there will be an article that we're all happy with. Waitak 19:34, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
By the way, NCCAM is an obnoxious use of taxpayer money. But, if it shows either the efficacy or lack thereof, maybe it won't be. I'd prefer NIH to be focused on primary science research. It's still a political BS move on the part of republicans. Orangemarlin 16:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
I see the NCCAM, and similar chairs of alternative medicine in the UK, as being a good step forward. For many years now there has been a great divide between the alternative health community and the scietific community, resulting in little funding of research into the subject. NCCAM is indicative of a growing trend in communication. --Salix alba (talk) 18:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Oops one more point. I didn't think I removed it? I thought I removed a spam link? Orangemarlin 16:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion of herbs to get consensus

Let's start a new section to make sure we're not stepping on each others toes. Just start a subsection if you want to discuss it. Orangemarlin 15:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Consensus? Herb by herb? You have to be kidding! There are 168 herbs on the NPLEX alone ... most have multiple indications - and I believe most NDs/herbalists would tell you this is only 'bare-bones' list of medicinal plants. I don't think you realize the size of the task at hand - this article would run on for thousands of pages if we stopped to evaluate herb-by-herb and indication by indication. All this article should do is list verifiable sources for health claims, both 'traditional' (King's, Hoffman, Comission E etc) and more modern EBM sources (pub med, cochrane). There is no way a single article could weigh the pros and cons of individual herbal indications. It will have to be enough to note the source of the claim and let the reader investigate further. 72.0.222.219 (talk) 15:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Foxglove

Give me a few minutes on PMID. Digitalis is like one of the original anti-arrhytmics out there. I just need to find the best source!!! Orangemarlin 15:49, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested title change

To "List of plants used as medicine" which removes pov issues of effectiveness and gets ride of the only-herbs issue. JoshuaZ 14:32, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Seems like a good idea, as the title makes no claim as to actual medicinal properties. --Salix alba (talk) 15:57, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
The problem is Used as Medicine is ambiguous. It begs the question "used by whom?". Some readers may assume "by mainstream medicine." If it means by anyone, anywhere, anytime it borders on meaningless.I'd prefer a title that is not open to misinterpretation. Maybe "List of plants claimed to have medicinal value" Its a bit longer but it should be clear to anyone that a claim may be true or falseCayte 19:12, 1 August 2007 (UTC)Cayte
How about a paragraph describing the criteria for inclusion? The article needs one in any case to describe the categories. ornis (t) 23:56, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Description of evidence

I don't understand what the 'Falsified pharmaceutical properties' and 'Unconfirmed pharmaceutical properties' columns would contain. Perhaps the table should use a standard EBM heirarchy like the following to convey the quality of evidence for each herb:

  • Level A: consistent Randomised Controlled Clinical Trial, Cohort Study, All or None, Clinical Decision Rule validated in different populations.
  • Level B: consistent Retrospective Cohort, Exploratory Cohort, Ecological Study, Outcomes Research, Case-Control Study; or extrapolations from level A studies.
  • Level C: Case-series Study or extrapolations from level B studies
  • Level D: Expert opinion without explicit critical appraisal, or based on physiology, bench research or first principles

If the quality of evidence is not known, they we could just record 'Level: unknown'. In my experience, it is almost always a mistake to say 'no evidence exists': it is always better to say that you havn't been able to find any. If we adopt a system like this, we would have to agree what 'Level' applies to historical 'tried and true' sources of information (King, Culpepper etc). I'm thinking they should be considered a "D".


206.47.252.66 01:33, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

We should expect the list will need to evolve with time. It should be simple at first. That would give it room to grow. With categories of evidence, there's also animal-model, in-vitro and epidemiological research Plus ethnobotanical cross cultural studies. Plausability increases if a herb is used in similar ways by diverse cultures or it belongs to the same genus as a herb with an established use. 18:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)Cayte

[edit] Scientific and pharmaceutical

So, based upon this format that has been graciously handed down by marlin, are we to equate medicine and pharmacy as mutual and exclusive? that is to say, the way that categories have been drawn out makes it appear that the only medicine in the world that is existent or effective is that of pharmaceutical medicine. Wiki wiki1 03:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

The only medicine that can be said to be effective is that supported by scientific evidence, else efficacy is unknown or disconfirmed. Folk medicine is fine if you want to establish use, but not if you want to establish effectivness.JamesStewart7 03:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Its useful to record folkloric and ethnobotanical uses and cite historical texts like Gerard. I'm not sure what format to use. The table will get unwieldy fast. It would be ideal to test everything in double blind studies but it takes time and mucho dinero. Also the tests run for only a few years on limited populations so we're back to the folkloric epistemology once a pharmaceutical is extrapolated to longer time frames and widespread use.Cayte 02:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)Cayte

[edit] Violation: 'No Original Reseach'

The 'evidence' column of the table violates the no original research rule. It is one thing to provide references that show (or fail to show) efficacy of a given herb for a given indication. It is also alright to note that you havn't been able to find much evidence either way. It is not ok to pronounce a given indication 'confirmed' or 'denied'. This is the job of metea-analysis. A thourough, exhaustive search of all availible literature, with pooled statistical analysis, published in a peer reviewed journal may determine that a particular herbal indication is 'confirmed' or 'denied': a single wiki editor who may have only spent a half an hour googling the subject should avoid judging/analying the evidence in this way. The 'confirmed' and 'denied' statements are nothing more than unverified opinions of individual editors. Besides, such judgments lead to endless debate/argument over how individual studies 'should' be interpretted. I may interpret the literature as having 'denied' the cholesterol-lowering effect of Allium sativa, but another editor may see the literature as having 'confirmed' it. It will have to be enough to cite actual original research and then let the reader decide. Naturstud (talk) 16:07, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Association of Konjac to acute hepatitis is not relevant?

Can someone explain why was the acute hepatitis source removed on this edit? --Enric Naval (talk) 15:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)