Talk:List of people with epilepsy

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Featured list star List of people with epilepsy is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you can update or improve it, please do.

Previous discussions have been archived here: Archive 1.

Contents

[edit] Ethics problem

I oppose detailing living persons, I find it offensive - A hypothetical event such as the following might happen; If any one of the listed living epileptic people Does NOT want this information to be published - It is their own choice , and we must respect them - Although the sources for that info comes from interviews with those persons, Yet in some cases They listed might have regrated publishing this .. I Removed it for those reasons. If anybody wants to revert back - Please think about it, revert and comment me here to start a discussion on the ethics of this subject. As for the dead people, Why are there NO scientists included ? --Eshy .L —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.250.24.199 (talk) 03:36, 1 October 2006.

I didn't make the change yet, because the introduction text refers to living people, and It just didn't feel right to delete somebody's text without notice. Does anybody have any comments? I say we start a discussion on the ethics of this article right here: (Go ahead.. I said my share) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.250.24.199 (talk) 03:41, 1 October 2006.

Thanks for your comments. I'm glad you didn't make any major changes without discussing first. You are right that we have take extra care what we say about living people. Wikipedia's policy on this issue is given at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. We do have a duty to respect privacy. Thefore, IMO, a living person should not be on this list if
  • The information cannot be verified in a reliable and reputable source.
  • The information was clearly not fairly obtained by the source.
  • The person has stated that they do not wish the information to be public.
  • The person is not notable.
  • There is any doubt as to the accuracy of the information – no speculation allowed.
Here are my views on why living people should be included in the list:
  • The sources for all the living people in this list have been audited (see below). I think that all these sources are good, but anyone is welcome to correct/disagree.
  • A large number of the living people in this list actively promote epilepsy charities and are very open about their condition. They wish to bring epilepsy "into the open" and remove any stigma attached.
  • Most of the sources are interviews, which is really the fairest way of gauging whether the person is open about it. I accept that someone may later regret what they have said. That is part of the burden of celebrity. Read the interviews and judge for yourself whether the person is shy about it.
  • It is not shameful to be included in this list. If we were to exclude living people, we are effectively saying "Here is a list of dead people who had epilepsy. It doesn't mention living people in case they are ashamed of it". What kind of message is that sending to someone with epilepsy?
If you still have strong feelings about this, I suggest you try to bring more people to the discussion by mentioning this elsewhere on Wikipedia. Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons is a possible place, though the Wikipedia:Village pump may be better.
There are a few scientists: Don Craig Wiley was biochemist and Minakata Kumagusu was a naturalist (who studied slime moulds). Emanuel Swedenborg, a scientist, is speculated to have had epilepsy. There are two problems with scientists. The first is that, by and large, they are not notable. An actor can become a notable in a soap opera, whereas a scientist with hundreds of important published papers will be ignored by the public. The second reason is perhaps that epilepsy is much more common in those with learning difficulties than it is in the general population. Such people don't tend become notable scientists.
Colin°Talk 10:17, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biographies of living persons

After some prompting by Rune.welsh, I've been studying WP:LIVING and have some thoughts about its affect on the epilepsy list.

  • We need to be much more careful with negative statements than positive or neutral statements. Is listing someone in this list a negative thing? We're clearly not saying someone has a personality defect. However, I can see how someone might be upset by their inclusion if it is wrong.
  • If it appears that the person is open about their epilepsy (e.g. appeared on videos, attended conferences, etc) is it safe to assume that they don't find it to be negative and therefore could include a less sturdy source?
For example, Hugo Weaving has done a video for Epilepsy Queensland Inc where he (and others) "talk openly, positively and with humour, about their epilepsy, and the way it affects their lives, and how they have learned to accept and live with it." However that link only tells me that Hugo Weaving has epilepsy, is open about it, and I think I have a reliable source.
I get more information from his interview in "West of Oz" magazine. I'm really not sure how big or reliable that mag is. However, I'm comfortable using a little non-controversial info from that article because I've got the other one to back the main criteria up.
  • Does the kind of article matter? For example, an interview in a celebrity magazine, where the subject talks openly and freely about their epilepsy sounds safe to me even if the magazine isn't of the highest quality. If the same magazine merely had a throwaway line "XYZ, who has epilepsy, did ..." then really we couldn't trust it. I'm thinking here possibly of the MTV News sources.
  • The tone of the source article also matters. Clearly the WP:LIVING is concerned about libelous remarks and Wikipedia repeating such remarks. It would be quite unusual to find an unreliable source using epilepsy as a means to insult someone.
  • Some sources are trustworthy for certain things but not others. I've used several epilepsy charity web sites as sources when they have an article about a celebrity or their attendance at a conference, for example. But I've not found any of their lists of "Famous people with epilepsy" that I would use as a reliable source.

Colin°Talk 13:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Audit

I've gone through all the still-living people on the list and looked at the sources given. These range from matter-of-fact to glowing tributes. I don't think there is a negative comment among them and it is clear that the majority of these people are quite open about their epilepsy.

  • Danny Glover – International Bureau for Epilepsy. Respectable international charity. News report on the 33rd Annual Epilepsy Foundation National Conference where Danny Glover gave a speech.
  • Rik Mayal – Interview in The Observer. Respectable newspaper.
  • Hugo Weaving – Description of video sold by Epilepsy Queensland Inc featuring Hugo. Clearly indicates that he is open about his epilepsy. Other source is an interview in West of Oz magazine. Uncertain how reliable this source is but have lifted only uncontroversial info and main fact is backed up by the first source.
  • Neil Abercrombi – National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Stroke conference proceedings. Big US government org. The other source is an Epilepsy Foundation press release on a government briefing.
  • Rabbi Lionel Blue – Details of a fundraising dinner for Epilepsy Research Foundation. You can actually here an audio recording of the advert by Lionel Blue.
  • Tony Coelho – A book from a big publisher.
  • Lindsey Buckingham – A big article in Rolling Stone. However, the actual text I read is reproduced on a fan site. Is this an issue? The other sources is a book from a specialist music publisher.
  • Adam Horovitz – Details and quotes on the source are archived this talk page. No web reference.
  • Richard Jobson – Big interview for the Sunday Herald, a respectable Scottish newspaper.
  • Geoff Rickly – Two sources, both ultimately from MTV News. Rickly is directly quoted talking about his epilepsy. This probably compensates for this not being the most serious news source.
  • Mike Skinner – Interview in The Observer.
  • Neil Young – Biography by his dad. The text I quote was read via Google Books.
  • Buddy Bell & Hal Lanier – Book on disability and major league baseball players.
  • Alan Faneca – Two substantial articles/news stores from Epilepsy Foundation.
  • Tony Greig – Epilepsy Action (Austrailia) board details.
  • Chanda Gunn – Substantial news story from CNN.
  • Bobby Jones – Two very complimentary stories, with quotes, from sports web sites.
  • Terry Marsh – Article in The New York Times and also details from his autobiography.
  • Maggie McEleny – Two very positive articles from The Scotish Institute of Sport.
  • Jonty Rhodes – Article from Epilepsy South Africa, a charity he supports.
  • Tom Smith – Press release from Epilepsy Action (UK charity) and also an article in The Scotsman, a respectable Scottish newspaper.
  • Paul Wade – Article in The Age, a respectable Austrailian newspaper. Also a long story in Australian Headlines, an epilepsy magazine, which includes pictures post-op.
  • Greg Walker – Two articles, from The New York Times and the Chicago Tribune.
  • Karen Armstrong – Story in The Guardian and also an autobiographical book.
  • Max Clifford – BBC Worldwide Press Office.
  • DeBarra Mayo – A story in the Fayetteville Observer, which I guess is fairly small. However, the source was supplied by the subject herself.
  • Patrick Dempsey – (no epilepsy). A very complimentary biography on TV.com.

Colin°Talk 18:05, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

A couple of things have prompted me to consider expanding the contents of this article (beyond just adding a few more names). The first is that during its review as a Featured list candidate, editors questioned whether the list was comprehensive. The second is that I have finally got hold of the full text of John Hughes paper "Did all those famous people really have epilepsy?". This has been an eye-opener on the shockingly poor quality of "diagnosis" made by biographers and other writers.

When this article was original created, some editors argued for the inclusion of all people believed (by someone) to have epilepsy. Others felt it should be a pure list of only the most reliable diagnoses. I hope the changes I've made will satisfy both camps. The reliable entries are kept as they were in their own section, at the front. These constitute the core of what this list is about.

This talk page contained much information (now archived) that could be in article-space if correctly presented. I've added a (currently short) section containing a few people that have retrospective diagnoses that are reasonably secure and well sourced. There are names on other sites that could be in this section but for the lack of any reliable sources.

I've also added a new section listing people that are commonly listed elsewhere but for which the diagnosis of epilepsy is wrong (or totally unsustainable). These are virtually always retrospective diagnoses and it is usually quite clear that someone has read too much into the words fit, seizure and convulsion when used in historical text or biography. Sometimes, mysteriously, there is no evidence of anything remotely resembling epileptic seizures. We can list these "lack of data" cases here if we quote a reliable source - I caution future editors against adding their own names to that section if the "lack of data" comes from original research.

If these changes have seriously upset anyone, I ask you not to revert but to discuss on the talk page so we can come to a consensus. Colin°Talk 22:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I wish I could give as much help with the religious figures section as you'd like. Most of these people fall outside my expertise. Instead I'll suggest some of the search tools I used for List of notable brain tumor patients. Boolean search engine inquiries turned up a lot for me, often in the form of (specific profession or sport) + (medical condition). You should have some advantage over my quests: epilepsy is less subject to variant national spelling and alternate diagnosis names. The "What links here" toolbox selection at brain tumor was another fruitful source of leads (which of course needed external verification before inclusion on the list). I wound up creating several new Wikipedia biographies for the people I found, some of which got highlighted on the main page in "Did you know?" such as Dawn Steel. Cheers and good hopes, Durova 22:42, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title move

Surely the title should be "List of notable people with epilepsy"? I'm sure there are millions of people with epilepsy around the world and I don't see them included here...! -- PageantUpdater • talk | contribs | esperanza 01:25, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

That is indeed what this list covers. However Wikipedia guidelines Wikipedia:Lists (stand-alone lists)#Naming conventions and policy Wikipedia:Naming conventions#Lists discourage such naming. The point is (I believe) that lists of people on Wikipedia should always consist of notable people and so the word is redundant. The notability test is largely: Do they have (or can be expected to have) a Wikipedia article. Colin°Talk 06:53, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Muhammad in the lead section

A recent edit removed "the detestable" from the quote of Taxil. Since it is part of a quote, just removing the text isn't satisfactory so I restored it. Wikipedia isn't censored, so, for example, replacing it with "…"' just because we don't like or agree with the phrase isn't recommended. Muhammad is detailed later on in the list, where a famous medical historian's opinion is given: that it was slander to allege that Muhammad had epilespy. Therefore, I think it relevant that those who repeat this possible slander, are shown to be biased in their view of Muhammad. Colin°Talk 13:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I've now replaced the quote with just a list, that no longer says "detestable". Colin°Talk 17:59, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Muhammad in the section on religious figures

The following discussion has been extracted from personal talk pages so that a wider discussion can occur

This list contains remarks about Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) as having epilepsy. The exact remarks are as

Some researchers consider temporal lobe epilepsy to be a possible cause of his inspirational spells.

Now, we as Muslims, believe that our Holy Book "The Quran" was actually conveyed to us from God by these so-called "Inspirational spells" . So, when someone says that these spells were actually temporal Lobe Epilepsy . This means that all we believe in is a big joke. Any Muslims can find these remarks as very offensive and ridiculous. Plus, this diagnosis which the author has made has no proof to confirm his statement. I have tried removing couple of sentences regarding our Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) but i have given this message Please do not remove content from Wikipedia, as you did to List of people with epilepsy. It is considered vandalism. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Thank you. Colin°Talk 07:50, 10 April 2007 (UTC) Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Drmuji" Therefore, i request you again that this offensive content be removed from the website and wikipedia be made as non-controversial as possible

Best Regards Dr. Mujtaba

Drmuji 13:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some references

if u need referances the please take a look at these sites

http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Badawi/Radio/RA200J5.htm

and also

http://muhammad.islamonline.net/English/index.shtml —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Drmuji (talk • contribs) 13:26, 12 April 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Reply from colin

Thanks for your message. You can be sure I appreciate your concerns. Almost every religious group can find something of offence in that section of the list. The Jews, Christians, Catholics, Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists all have spiritual leaders that someone at some time has claimed to have had epileptic seizures rather than true religious visions. If you read the text at the start of the list and at the start of the section, you may detect a somewhat sceptical tone with regard to the value of such speculations.

However, Wikipedia is not censored. The statement that "Some researchers consider temporal lobe epilepsy to be a possible cause of his inspirational spells" is undoubtedly true regardless of whether you or I think it offensive or just complete bollocks. I have cited a source in a highly respected epilepsy journal. There are other sources I could have cited, for example, the book "Sword and Seizure: Muhammad's Epilepsy & Creation of Islam". I haven't read that book, however, and don't intend to. A Google search for "Muhammad Epilepsy" returns thousands of pages both for and against. The debate is definitely notable.

When writing for Wikipedia, sometimes editors have to include statements they don't personally believe. The neutral point of view is a core policy and means we may have to "write for the enemy" (i.e. the other side of the argument). I think/hope that anyone reading List of people with epilepsy will find a fairly balanced article that doesn't push one view over another.

If you still feel that the article needs to be changed, I can suggest some forms of mediation - i.e. asking for another opinion from other editors. Colin°Talk 14:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply from Drmuji

I appreciate your answer and your point of view about it as well. But, my only concern is that had this been on some other area, i may somehow have swallowed it. but to write that "inspirational spells" were due to temporal lobe epilepsy, actually stresses on our faith about our holy book "The Quran". And all muslims follow Quran as the guide lines. Second point which you raised was that there were hundreds of articles which concur with your point of view. My answer is that there are thousands of articles which go against that point as well. your third point was wikipedia is not censored. I am quoting what is written on the website. "Wikipedia may contain content that some readers consider objectionable or offensive. Anyone reading Wikipedia can edit an article and the changes are displayed instantaneously without any checking to ensure appropriateness, so Wikipedia cannot guarantee that articles or images are tasteful to all users or adhere to specific social or religious norms or requirements." This clearly says that i have the write to change the article. Finally, my request is that the sentence which i have been objecting should be removed because any muslim who sees this article may find it very offensive and quite a lot of people quote Wikipedia on several things. I am afraid that someday someone can raise this issue at some forum and this can cause a lot of problem as you saw with the reaction about blasphemous cartoons published in one of the newspapers few months back about Muhammad (P.B.U.H) And lastly, The book "Sword and Seizure: Muhammad's Epilepsy & Creation of Islam" which you mentioned has some basic flaws. The author says that it is all because of temporal lobe epilepsy. that may sound true to some people but as a psychiatrist i know that temporal lobe epilepsy cannot last for 13 years and also that after the seizure of temporal lobe, the patient doesn’t remember any of the things which he did during the seizure. And, none of these things happened to Muhammad. You can find details about all these things in the links i sent you. Also, the author has tried to mix bipolar disorder with epilepsy in that case, but has failed to find one proper manic or hypomanic episode in the history of Muhammad (P.B.U.H). I hope you understand my point of view and appreciate my concerns. And if you feel stubborn about your point of view then I would like you mediate on this matter as long as its not Garion96, because i read his comments on your archive Best Regards Mujtaba Drmuji 02:45, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I have asked for comments over at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Islam. Hope that is acceptable to you. Colin°Talk 11:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply from colin

Removing sourced text from Wikipedia is never acceptable without at least an edit summary and preferably a discussion on the talk page – which is what we are doing now. Just to be clear, it is not my opinion that TLE is a source of Muhammad's inspirational spells. I favour Owsei Temkin's argument that the whole association with epilepsy has arisen from slanderous remarks. Temkin is a highly respected author on the history of epilepsy. It should also be clear that the article itself does not claim that TLE is a source of the inspirational spells. It only states that "some researchers" believe this. There are people who hold all sorts of beliefs, some offensive, some nutty. Wikipedia doesn't align itself with those beliefs if all it is doing is reporting that they exist.

I have added an extra sentence to the end of the lead in the Religious figures section:

The presence of an entry in the following list does not indicate a scholarly consensus in favour of a diagnosis of epilepsy; merely that such a diagnosis has been suggested.

Like you, I would not want someone to be able to quote Wikipedia as a source that claims person XYZ had epilepsy if such a claim is in doubt. I hope it is clear that all the entries in the Retrospective diagnosis section must be regarded as speculative. Colin°Talk 11:08, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice on the wikiproject Islam's talk page. The belief that Mohammed had TLE is a notable observation made by many people and so I agree with that it should be included in this article. Dr. Mujtaba, it doesnt matter if this is offensive to Muslims. So are many other things offensive in Wikipedia to Muslims, e.g. Criticism of Islam. Wikipedia is an an impartial encyclopedia for notable issues. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 19:53, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
the notion that Muhammad had epilepsy is for the most part an insinuation: most modern academic sources available on Islam to my knowledge do not equate Muhammad with being an epileptic, and in fact deny this claim (from my quick scan: Caesar Farah in "Islam: Beliefs and Observances" p. 69; other scholars who deny this link include Theodor Nöldeke, and Montgomery Watt cf. "Bell's Introduction to the Qur'an", Edinburgh University Press, pp. 17-18, Maxime Rodinson [in Muhammad: Prophet of Islam] notes that it was a conclusion of hostile Christians). as a lot of academic scholars tend to deny or not mention it, the article probably shouldn't include him as a verified epileptic, if at all. ITAQALLAH 04:38, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
  • ah... i see that it is in the section of retrospective diagnosis, perhaps a quote from one of the above scholars would be appropriate? ITAQALLAH 05:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
There are many academic sources that mention Mohammed's possible epilepsy [1], [2] and many others. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 04:45, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Margoliouth seems to be one. however, as Watt/Bell state, more recent academics do not tend to entertain such views. the second link doesn't seem particularly appropriate, and neither do most of the others really. as i said, most academic scholars tend not to class Muhammad as an epileptic. ITAQALLAH 05:01, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
In any case, the mention of Mohammed possibly being an epileptic is notable because countless number of book authors talk about it, so this should stay in this article. To DrMuji: Wikipedia is not censored. The fact that a certain statement may be offensive to you as a Muslim, is of secondary importance. Wikipedia is an impartial encyclopedia. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 11:43, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for those refs, Itaqallah. The text makes it clear that "an entry in the following list does not indicate a scholarly consensus in favour of a diagnosis of epilepsy; merely that such a diagnosis has been suggested". I also cite Owsei Temkin (highly respected medical historian and author of the book on the history of Epilepsy) who concurs with the "slander" POV. I suppose the entry is slightly imbalanced in that it only has one person anti and "some" researchers pro. If I were to change it to
Many historians consider the association of Muhammad with epilepsy to have arisen from slander by the Byzantine Christian historian Theophanes. Some researchers consider temporal lobe epilepsy to be a possible cause of his inspirational spells.
I'd like to cite a couple more anti sources, which were reliable. Can you provide me with a full {{cite book}} citation for the above refs. Also, can you confirm that those sources would support that statement, or should it be worded differently. Colin°Talk 20:56, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] references

i have documented below the ref details (requested above) and the extracts (just for the sake of completeness):

reference: Caesar Farah, "Islam: Beliefs and Observances" (2003), Barron's Educational Series, ISBN 0764122266 (also includes extract from another academic scholar Tor Andrae)

The issue here revolves around his sincerity. Certain writers have alluded to his being subject to epileptic seizures, psychic tension, and other abnormal physical manifestations, all of which, it has been argued, inspired Muhammad to receive revelations from God.11

... If epilepsy is to denote only those severe attacks which involve serious consequences for the physical and mental health, then the statement that Mohammad suffered from epilepsy must be emphatically rejected.12

What is germane to this discussion is the product, not the means. Many personalities before Muhammad who were considered "psychologically sound" had less to offer posterity even when they were accorded the dignity of being official spokesmen for God...

11. These insinuations resulted from the 19th-century infatuation with scientifically superficial theories of medical psychology and the theories of those who applied them in their search for some scientific explanation based upon such admissions as Muhammad being in a semi-conscious and trance-like state with occasional loss of consciousness when he received revelations.

12. Tor Andrae, Mohammad: The Man and his Faith, trans. Theophil Menzel (New York: Harper Torch Book Series, 1960), p.51

reference: W.Montgomery Watt, Richard Bell. "Bell's Introduction to the Qur'an"(1995) Edinburgh University Press. ISBN 0748605975, pp 17-18.

In medieval Europe there was elaborated the conception of Muhammad as a false prophet, who merely pretended to receive messages from God; and this and other falsifications of medieval war-propaganda are only slowly being expunged from the mind of Europe and of Christendom.

a short passage about Thomas Carlyle who argued for Muhammad's sincerity, which was the "first step towards a more balanced view". then:

Various later scholars followed this with attempts to save Muhammad's sincerity, but sometimes at the expense of his sanity. Gustav Weil sought to prove that he suffered from epilepsy. Aloys Sprenger went further and suggested that in addition Muhammad suffered from hysteria...

... Theofor Noldeke, while insisting on the reality of Muhammad's prophetic inspiration, and rejecting the idea that suffered from epilepsy, thought that he was subject to over-powering fits of emotion...

Recent writers have on the whole been more favourable and have taken the view that Muhammad was absolutely sincere and acted in complete good faith... (mentions a few scholars to substantiate this) ...Tor Andrae examined Muhammad's experience from a psychological standpoint and found it to be genuine, and also that he has a prophetic message for his age and generation.

offering his own conclusions in denial of epilepsy, Watt says:

... Too little allowance also was made for the fact that the Muhammad whom we know best was to all appearance healthy in body and in mind. It is incredible that a person subject to epilepsy, or hysteria, or even ungovernable fits of emotion, could have been the active leader of military expeditions, or the cool far-seeing guide of a city-state and a growing religious community; but all this we know Muhammad to have been.

reference: Maxime Rodinson, Muhammad: Prophet of Islam (2002), Tauris Parke Paperbacks, ISBN 1860648274

makes a note about experiences of mystics, then:

However that may be, the Prophet certainly suffered from attacks of some kind in adult life. Hostile Christians put it down to epilepsy. If this were so, it was a benign form. What is much more probable is that Muhammad's psycho-physiological constitution was basically of the kind found in many mystics.

reference: A. Noth in the "Muhammad" article of Encyclopaedia of Islam Online. Ed. P.J. Bearman, Th. Bianquis, C.E. Bosworth, E. van Donzel, W.P. Heinrichs. Brill Academic Publishers. ISSN 1573-3912. , the best scholarly academic reference available on Islam:

With very few exceptions, the concept of the mediaeval biography of the Islamic Prophet was dominated by a single tendency, namely to prove that Muhammad, in the way he had lived and acted, could not have been a prophet, that his alleged divine revelations consequently were man's work and that Islam at the very most is an abstruse heresy of Christianity. Made subservient to this basic concept, there appear in the mediaeval Muhammad biography four kinds of motives...

Noth then discusses a number of polemical insinuations made by these medieval authors (i.e. having been taught by heretics), including that of self-deception:

The self-deception is generally depicted as pathological: endeavours of the Kuraysh, which had been transmitted, to interpret Muhammad as a magically-possessed person ( madjnun ) or also Islamic traditions relating the Prophet's fainting fits ( ghushiya `alayhi and other such expressions) in connection with the revelations in this context, produced welcome material for the image of a Muhammad who psychologically ill—the term “ epileptic ” was a particular favourite—who considered his delusions as divine announcements. By using another motive, it was also maintained that he experienced the instructions of his heretical teachers as messages of the archangel Gabriel.

--ITAQALLAH 21:20, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nominated for Deletion? Why?

Mentioned at the top of the article "List of people with epilepsy is a featured list, which means it has been identified as one of the best lists produced by the Wikipedia community. If you see a way this page can be updated or improved without compromising previous work, feel free to contribute."

The idea that someone wants to delete an article which is identified with one of the BEST LISTS is absolutely ridicilous. Timmah01 11:43, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Please comment over at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of people with epilepsy. Colin°Talk 11:56, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maggie McEleny, Patsy Custis and Antônio Moreira César

Three people on the list who appear to have no articles about them. Are they notable, or can they be removed? Dupont Circle 20:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I've created Maggie McEleny. Patsy (Martha Parke) Custis died aged 17 so didn't get a chance to achieve notability in her own right. Her parentage gives her notability within American history, and her epilepsy is an interesting entry in this list. Antônio Moreira César has an article on the Portuguese WP and a redlink on War of Canudos. I suspect that eventually, he'll get an article here too. Colin°Talk 17:08, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for that Colin. I'm not convinced by Patsy Custis. If she's not notable, then she shouldn't be on the list, regardless of how interesting her epilepsy is? Dupont Circle 20:21, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Link from Epilepsy article

In accordance with Wikipedia:Summary_style, I created a short section in Epilepsy that links here: Epilepsy#People_with_Epilepsy. I should have done this when List of people with epilepsy was created; I have now corrected that omission. -ikkyu2 (talk) 19:37, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

  • In which case, I've removed the link to this article from the 'see also' section of the epilepsy article Dupont Circle 20:29, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Literature

[edit] A further word on religious figures as epileptics

I am not a Muslim but I agree with Drmuji on the issue of resentment of such association. And I agree with Colin, so far as we are talking about these people's alleged epileptic status being taken cum grano salis. More to the point, however, this seems to be a sly way to sneak the "Documentary theory" of the source of part of the Old Testament into a reference work. Labeling parts of the Pentateuch as the manifestation of an epileptic fit is an insult to intelligence and, to use the language of Melvin Belli, little short of criminal libel. Dougie monty (talk) 06:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The article and the source (which I've added a link to) make no claim that the writing is "the manifestation of an epileptic fit". The controversial Geschwind syndrome is a personality trait associated with temporal lobe epilepsy.
The dilemma is that if we remove names because the evidence appears weak or even ludicrous, these names appear in lists on other web sites and books and are generally treated as historical facts: that Paul, Joan of Arc and Muhammad had epilepsy. To me, that careless treatment of history is the worst crime and I hope this WP list makes it clear that all these retrospective "diagnoses" are speculative and controversial. Colin°Talk 08:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)