Talk:List of marjas

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Should we put dates/years? Dates of birth and death for the Deceased ones? Or Dates from which they have been considered Marjas for all? I don't know enough about this topic to be able to decide.—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 02:31, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

First things first: we need to alphabetize the living ones by the Roman transliterations of their names (ignoring "al"). Then we need to make sure we have articles for all of them (A lot of them do, and I've created some links, but I really should be studying right now). The article should have at a minimum, birth and death dates, followed by date when they began to be considered ayatollah and marja.
Here's a hypothetical article introduction example (this is not a parody; I mean no disrespect to any of the living or departed marjas, I'm just trying to show what I think a standard article intro should contain, so I'm making up a "John Smith" type-example):
Ayatollah Sayyid Ali Husayn Irani (1845/1261 AH-1943/1362 AH), Ayatollah from 1903, Marja (Grand Ayatollah) after 1921, was an Iranian cleric, Islamic jurist and spiritual leader for Shiite Muslims.
See how that sums it all up nicely? You would of course have all the CE dates linked so that they would show up on Selected Anniversaries, and you would link to the terms "ayatollah" and "marja" (I didn't do that here, because I don't want my example linking to genuine articles). That would be a good standard intro format, and you could have all the detailed information below it. If you didn't have time to start a detaield article, that could at least be a good placeholder stub for someone to work on. We could even start a Wikiproject for Ayatollahs or Shiite clerics or, more generally, Muslim clerics, to divide up the work and set up acheivable mini-tasks so that one overworked person doesn't havet to do it all.
If we're going to add dates to this list, I would just add the birth and death dates, and leave the other dates for the article itself. Otherwise, the list will look too cluttered. One alternative would be to have a table with the headings "Name", "Birth", "Death", "Considered Ayatollah", "Considered Marja", but I think that would just make the whole thing too complex.

--Jpbrenna 03:25, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

Things needed to be done:

  1. Alphabetize by last name
  2. Almost 85% of these guys are all Grand Ayatollahs. We should correct the lists to reflect that.
  3. cross-check and add deficiencies (if needed) from the 3 following equivalent lists:

--Zereshk 16:53, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I know we use "Grand Ayatollah" in English, but what is the "real" (Arabic/Farsi/etc.) term? Ayatullah Al-Uzma?—iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 19:07, May 3, 2005 (UTC)

Correct.--Zereshk 19:49, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

to have the 2 lists united in one list called Shi'a scholars better i think .. please link to our list in the arabic wikipedia [رجال_دين_شيعة] --Hani el ba7rani 16:13, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Nasr is a Shia scholar. But he's not a Marja. See the difference? That's why the lists are separated.--Zereshk 06:01, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] classification according to school

Please classify each person as to his associated school. Also specify the website or source for your information. Gerash77 11:29, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Syed Naveed Asghar Shamsi

Someone has added this individual Syed Naveed Asghar Shamsi to the list; this learned person must be an Ayatollah, and the one who has added this name may not be aware of the difference between Ayatollah and marja. Please verify Syed Naveed Asghar Shamsi as a marja, by referring to his website, or his resalah, or add his name to list of ayatollahs. NEDian (talk) 13:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Sortable Data

I have put all the names of current Marjas into a sortable table format, so that the information becomes more useable and customizable for the readers. Please add more relevant columns for this table, create the same for deceased marjas. NEDian (talk) 13:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Adress?

How comes that at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_marjas I get similar, but slightly longer list? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.17.37.2 (talk) 21:03, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

ayatollah mesbah yazdi is not a marjah. he was no known risaleh, he is only an alim —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.235.9.128 (talk) 06:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of "self-proclaimed marjas"

Don't delete the marjas, which you think are "self-proclaimed marjas" because none among us is to decide who is self-proclaimed and who is not. To adopt Neutral Point of View, initially it was decided that

All Marjas who published a resalah, irrespective of the number of their followers, will be included in this list.

Please take a look at [1]. Then, I arranged the article into a sortable table format. If you think that certain individual was not added correctly, please discuss his deletion from list on the Discussion Page of the article. If you don't discuss such issues with other authors, it will turn into an edit-war. NEDian (talk) 21:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ordering of Names: Alphabetical OR Influential

The names of the Marjas were ordered alphabetically, because there is no standard to prove superiority of one marja over another. Possible standards and their flaws are:

  1. Adopt the list issued by Hawza Elmiye Qom, however it is not popular in Shia's outside Iran.
  2. Arrange the marjas according to their age, but more age doesn't necessarily mean more learned.
  3. Arrange the marjas according to seminaries, but one seminary is not more important than other.

So all authors stuck to alphabetical listing of the names of marjas. I am sorry to say that one of our learned friends re-ordered the list without mentioning his criterion, and placed his favourite ones at the top. I am startled that he placed Ayatollah Hussain FadlAllah at the top, while keeping influential ulema like Taghi Bahjat & Vahid Khorasani low on the list. Please don't do this, let the list be alphabetical. NEDian (talk) 21:55, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Please don't give importance to one marja over another. Someone has kept Muhammad Hussain Fadlallah's image at 200x200px, while others images are at 150x150px. Please be neutral... NEDian (talk) 22:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Serial No. for the list

I put the serial no. for the list, to help other authors about the current no. of marjas on the list. Let's suppose someone deletes one marja from the list due to any reason, how can we trace who was deleted. So, please keep the S. No. on the page. NEDian (talk) 21:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Changes

I arranged the list by alphabetical order, and I removed Zanjani, Mesbah-Yazdi and Malakouti; the former two because they have yet to declare themselves marjas and Malakouti because his website is out of service and apart from his Wikipedia article, I haven't found a source that calls him a marja or a grand ayatollah. I also made Fadlallah's picture bigger because at 150x150, it looks smaller than the other pictures. LahoreKid (talk) 01:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

First discuss, then make the changes.
  1. You have alphabeticized the list on the basis of the last name, which should have been discussed with other editors. You should better search for an official wikipedia policy on this matter, Muslim names are. Then make the change. (It seems to me that you want to give one individual importance, no one before had the idea of arranging list in this weird manner :-) No offense meant off course!)
  2. Please keep all pictures at 150x150 px. This is wikipedia standard for lists of persons. You better get a clearer image of Fadlallah Sb to resolve this issue.
  3. I am not sure about Mesbah Yazdi and I didn't add his name, his name was in the list since the article was started by an editor. Ask that person about it, or bring some proof before deleting his name.
Don't delete Malakouti just because his site is down these days. Don't be too hasty in deleting individuals.
By deleting Zanjani, you have showed your ignorance and hasty nature. Moosa Shubairi Zanjani was nominated as the 6th most knowledgable marja by the Jamia Modarassin Hawza Elmiye Qom before the death of Fazel Lankarani and Jawwad Tabrizi. The list was:
  1. Fazel Lankarani
    1. Taghi Bahjat
    2. Ali Khamenei
    3. Hossein Vahid Khorasani
    4. Jawad Tabrizi
    5. Moosa Shubairi Zanjani
    6. Naser Makarem Shirazi
Image:BayanModified.GIF
So I am reverting the list back to where I left it, and where others were agreed upon. Make the changes when you are sure about these matters. Wassalam NEDian (talk) 17:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I have fixed the picture of Fadlallah Sb, now it looks the same size as picture of Muhammad Hussain Najafi. Happy? NEDian (talk) 17:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I will put Zanjani back. Think twice before sabotaging Fadlallah's picture. It will stay of the same size. LahoreKid (talk) 18:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't impose your interpretation on others, I didn't sabotage the picture. I just resized it to look like others' pic, as was your wish. Why should I think twice, when you don't even think once when deleting reputable marjas like Zanjani without giving any reason and just saying that I don't know him. Be humble, man. Don't show your attitude, we are not here to bear you. NEDian (talk) 18:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wrong Deletion of Marjas without any discussion by LahoreKid

I have no hesitation in saying that the individual LahoreKid has spoiled the list altogether in the name of removing false marjas, although he didn't mention what his criterion for identifying a false marja is. Someone would have to spend a lot of time in restoring the names which you have deleted in your haste. He has reduced the list from 40 to somewhat 20, looks like some conspiracy.

  1. Why was Ghoraifi Najafi was deleted, while his websiteOfficial Website clearly calls him Al-Marja ad-dini?
  2. Why was Qorban Ali Kaboli deleted, while he is the only marja on Afghani soil?Official Website
  3. Why was Ahmad Hassani Baghdadi deleted? Official Website
  4. Why was Esa Ahmad Qasim deleted, while his name was even included in the very first list in the section Seminary of Bahrain?
  5. Why was Jannati deleted? Official Website
  6. Why was Yaqoobi deleted? Official Website
  7. Why was Jorjani deleted, while his biography at al-Shia.com clearly refers to book about his life "Al-kokab al-durri fi hayat al-marja al-alavi" (look at the bottom of the page)?
  8. Why was Abdollah Jawad Amoli deleted, while his Farsi website's top section "Istiftaat" clearly shows that he is issuing fatwas.


NEDian (talk) 19:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I removed marjas from the list whose status was not based on references. You insist on adding people who don't even call themselves marjas, such as Mesbah-Yazdi and Jawadi Amoli. As for the others, I don't think clerics like Khamenei, Sistani and Fadlallah should be disrespected by being compared with other self-declared marjas who have very few followers, and most of the time are not recognized by their peers. Jawadi Amoli hasn't even declared himself marja, and there is no reference to the word marja or ayatullah al-udhma in either his website or his entry in the Persian wikipedia.

I also think it is quite sad the way you reported me, and distorted facts by claiming that I was uncivil and that I attacked you unprovoked, while you were the one who told me, after being extremely polite and civil to you: By deleting Zanjani, you have showed your ignorance and hasty nature. LahoreKid (talk) 21:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Before I leave I want to point out to two lists which should be used as references, [2] and [3], which mentions the names of the most prominent marjas after Sistani. LahoreKid (talk) 22:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I am sorry if my words provoked you, but I didn't call you an idiot, and never resorted to say that this list was first created by me in this sortable table format, I had to spend lots of time in collecting the information and you are wasting my time, like you said to me. I have done lots of editing on wikipedia in the past three years, but never tried to say that you are a newbie and should refrain from editing seriously. Deleting Zanjani was a serious mistake, you should admit it humbly. No one here is insincere to the cause, so please stop showing your superiority and sincerity over others. No offense meant, cheers :-) ...NEDian (talk) 12:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Please restore the 7 names from the list I mentioned above (leave Jawad Amoli for the time being), as there is no obvious reason for keeping them out of the list. NEDian (talk) 12:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jawadi Amoli

Please correct me if I am wrong. As far as I know "Marja Taqlid" has the honorific title of "Grand Ayatollah" (ayat-allah al-uzma) and that this title is reserved for Marja Taqlids.

Now, if what I just said is correct, Jawadi Amoli's persian website says he is "ayatollah" and not "ayatollah uzma". In any case, we need clear reliable sources for identification of these people as Marja. --Be happy!! (talk) 22:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

There are certain individuals who don't tend to use the title Grand Ayatollah for them, e.g.
  1. See the Official Website of Fadlallah Sb where you won't find this title Grand Ayatollah, instead you will find Allama, Religious Authority, etc.
  2. The case of Mousa Shubairi Zanjani is obvious from the discussion between me and LahoreKid on this page. You won't find the title Grand Ayatollah with his name anywhere, but have a look at the letter from Hawza Elmiye Qom (also on this page) which recognizes him as the 6th most knowledgable marja.
  3. Have a look at that letter again, and you will find that the title Grand Ayatollah is used nowhere in this list. Does that mean that noone among them is a marja. This is not that easy...
  1. Have a look at the List of living Shia Ulema at al-shia.com. The title Grand Ayatollah is used no where. This list is maintained by Ayatollah Sistani's network, and they have kept Jawwad Amoli at # 19 above many reputable marjas. I don't think that Jawad Amoli is not a marja.
Apparently, it seems that Jawad Amoli is not a Grand Ayatollah, but the Istift'at section on his Arabic and Persian website confuses me, so I tend to keep the name on the list until we reach some conclusion. If you guys are agreed that his name should be deleted for the time being, I have absolutely no problem. What my concern is that if we delete individuals on such bases, any new editor would come and delete the names which he thinks were falsely added. NEDian (talk) 12:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Most influential marja in Iran?

Sorry for my ignorance, but who would you say is the most influential and/or experienced/learned marja in Iran? And who would you think would succeed Ali Khamenei as Supreme Leader of Iran? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.5.148 (talk) 19:53, 8 June 2008 (UTC)