Talk:List of hollows in Bleach

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Archives

January 2007 — August 2007

Contents 1 Yammy 2 Own Page 3 An image for the Arrancar 4 Nell's officially romanized name 5 Image for Nell... 6 Current pictures of the Espada -> released or non-released? 7 Nell Tu 8 Page for Nell? 9 Colored image of adult Nel Tu 10 Fair use rationale for Image:Privaronespada.JPG 11 Pesshe and Dondo 12 Neliel surname 13 Nel's zanpaktou 14 Aaroneiro's last name... 15 About the new informations 16 Byakuya 17 Yylfordt? 18 Fair use rationale for Image:Luppi.JPG 19 Grand Fisher 20 request to separate Arrancar from Hollow page 21 Just so you know 22 Fair use rationale for Image:Wonderwice Margera.png 23 Problem 24 Nel's Fraccion 25 Ulquiorra CIFER 26 More romanization: Sexta Fracción 27 Old Man Espada: Avaron Van Verde? 28 Merge 28.1 Ready to merge? 29 Arrancar description in Hollow section 30 Patros mini-arc 31 Privaron Espada 32 Merge Privaron Espada with the Espada list 33 English Names 34 Who removed Fishbone D? 35 Power 36 Shawlong Koufang

[edit] Yammy

Why has Yammy's picture been removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.219.220.116 (talk) 13:35, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

And what happened to the rest of his information? Big red01027 21:27, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Own Page

Why do some of the espada have their own page but other's don't? I know that Arorino (I don't have the page open, excuse the spelling) used to have his own page, but now he doesn't. I can understand the espada that have only been very briefly shown, but I think a major character that was involved with [Spoiler]'s possible death deserves his own page. SoulReaverDan 23:48, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

The four Espada who currently have articles are allowed such a privilege because they're active at the moment. It seems possible that they, or at least Nnoitra and Szayel, will be merged when their part is finished. As for Aaroniero, he's only around for about four chapters, so there really isn't an article's worth that can be said about him. ~SnapperTo 03:17, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Since is very unlikely Nnoitra or Szayel will recieve any real relevance soon, even if they survive their fights, I agree with merge their articles now (yeah, I know this is being discussed on "characters in bleach", but it seems more efficient this way). Among the Arrancar/Hollow, only Ulquiorra and Grimmjow, so far, had enough to be granted their own articles. - Access Timeco 02:04, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Why not after their respective fights and see whether they die or not then we merge their pages. The world isn't ending today, and there is plenty of time to wait for awhile until their part is played. Access, what do you mean very unlikely? Nnoitra is in the middle of fighting with Ichigo, and Szayel just released his zanpakuto. If I remember correctly, the last time we saw an Espada released his zanpakuto was Grimmjow, and that itself took 4 chapters or so.--Hanaichi 02:35, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I mean that have a long fight is not enough to grant you an article. Aaroniero had one, and I think we all agree he doesn't have enough material to justify an own article. And, if, in the future, Nnoitra get enough relevance to deserve one (I don't doubt he will), his article will not be deleted, just inactivated. We'll just have to undo the redirect edit and it will be back, is not like all the work in the article will be lost if we merge it. - Access Timeco 14:28, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I think Szayel has more info than Ulquiorra, c'mon, Ulquiorra played a small part in Yammy&Ulquiorra vs Yoruichi&Urahara, and Ulquiorra vs Ichigo took 2 chapters, but Szayel vs Ishida&Renji first part took 3 chapters. Both of them got their numbers revealed, both got their last name revealed, but only Szayel released his zanpakuto and revealed his zanpakuto name. We've got more than enough info about his fraccions, while Ulq has none known. I know he appeared earlier, but spending some private time with Orihime doesn't make Ulquiorra the main character.!!!!Hartebeest 04:46, 30 August 2007 (UTC) Last edited by Hartebeest 04:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

They really all should be merged except for Grimmjow, who has received a significant amount of backstory and coverage. As for now, let's wait until the fights wind down before doing anything. And Hartebeest, I reverted your initial post because it was a blatant personal attack. Be civil to other editors. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 04:59, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Um, didn't I already changed it and apologized? You've made your point. Hartebeest 05:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

So its generally agreed, we wait until their battles are over.--Hanaichi 05:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

What about Ulquiorra then? He has less information than Szayel. Hartebeest 02:49, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Who knows, alot more could come, like what happened to Grimmjow. No need to be in a rush.--Hanaichi 10:40, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Szayel is not that relevant, although. Ulquiorra maybe has less info concerning his fighting abilities (something that can be explained in just one paragraph, so it doesn't make so much difference), but his appearances are always important to the development of the main story. - Access Timeco 15:35, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Like I said, its generally agreed that we wait until their parts are over then merge them. I have a feeling alot more about Ulquiorra is going to be revealed in the future.--Hanaichi 02:58, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Nel Tu should have her own page because her entire name, significant backstory and zanpaktou release have been shown---- 86.158.198.105 (talk) 18:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Why is the basis for having their own page based on how active they are in the story valid when not everyone is at the same place in the story. Furthermore if they are at the place in the story where they are prevalent, they would have a greater knowledge of the character than if they where further back in the story. The reasoning for getting their own page needs some work. --130.156.138.46 (talk) 22:49, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An image for the Arrancar

Should we add a new image of Luppi from the anime? I think we should but tell me your opinion.

Well, anime picture is always better, but people would need time to get it.--Hanaichi 13:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

yup i think we should as well. i think it would be great if eventually, all images would be anime pictures for consistency. if it's not possible, well too bad i guess =D Twsl 20:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your response  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.19.12.96 (talk) 21:45, August 29, 2007 (UTC) 

Didn't I already talked about it? EDIT: So it's generally agreed, we'll try. Hartebeest 05:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

It's me again, I think que should add a new image of Wonderwice From the anime too. 193.153.197.193 (talk)

yah, we should. but i don't think this episode can give us a good picture of him. but you're more than welcome to prove me wrong xD Twsl 16:40, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Truu, nobody would wanna see a naked arrancar, think there would be a few good image for Luppi in the next episode. Hartebeest 21:16, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Added one. See Image:WonderwiceAnime.jpg. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 04:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I'd suggest leaving the manga image for Wonderweiss. It's the more official character design, in color, and doesn't look like it was drawn in marker by a 12 year old. --tjstrf talk 04:51, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I have always disliked the images taken from the color spreads, as there is always significant clutter in the background, especially in the case of that image. If that image could be cleaned up, then I wouldn't mind putting it back. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 04:57, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

We should wait for next weeks Bleach episode for a better view of Wonderwice, other than the half naked one or the kiddish odd picture.--Hanaichi 12:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Think we should trash Image:Espada-group.jpg soon, and add images for individual Espadas (Stark, Halibel, and Unnamed), because the group image only show part of their face and when I first look at it (May 2007, when I catch up with manga), I was like WTF! -- Hartebeest 02:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I tried to do something similar when I first came here but someguy8309 (or something) kept reverting back saying this page isn't a gallery :( so maybe we can find a good grouppicture of the espada? Twsl 15:50, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as you probably haven't read WP:NFCC, you probably haven't noticed that articals or sections which doesn't have enough information can't get a image. The Espada group image is far by the best GROUP image we can get, unless you want the ultra blur one from the anime opening. Stop complaining, there is something called fair use and what you are trying to do isn't exactly fair. You guys are breaching the fair use copyright bla bla bla thing so its either no individual picture per section, or deletion of our article. Live with it.--Hanaichi 04:16, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

First of all it's articles, not articals. Secondly, who's complaining? Did I miss something? Why are you mumbling about fair use? Do you hear me saying that we have to place pics for each person? No, so don't be saying "you guys are breaching the fair use". Next time read very carefully what a person says otherwise don't post at all understood? Ontopic: When I find a better pic of the espada as a group , I will replace the current one. Twsl 10:09, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Basically the guideline is to use as few images as possible except where there is significant discussion of the image itself. Since we know nothing about the characters that don't already have their own images, so we can't discuss them enough to put any. --tjstrf talk 10:14, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Well if it's really in the rules to use as few images as possible, I think there are a few images that we can replace. For example, in the newest episode of bleach (the espada invasion) we see a groupshot of Grimmjow, Yami, Wonderweiss and Luppi. Besides that there are also seperate pics of for example Yami and Luppi together. Just a suggestion. If anyone is against this please do tell :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Twsl (talk • contribs) 11:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

No, leave it as is. The rule is to use as few unimportant pictures as possible, they still have to be usable though. Group shots of characters with no particular attachment to each other does not fall under that category. --tjstrf talk 11:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Alright, got it. Twsl 12:00, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I still prefer colored images from manga, since they depict the character as the creator imagines (the anime is somehow different since is not him who is drawing). But, well, whatever. I was thinking, since we have an "Espada" image, shouldn't we delete the Yammy one (since he already appear on the first)? Aaroniero is ok because the first image doesn't show his face. - Access Timeco 15:32, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

And Luppi? EDIT: and we should trash the group image sooner or later, when Stark, Halibel, and the 2 unnamed arrancar gets enough information. Hartebeest 15:52, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Luppi is not in that image. And don't trash the Espada one u.u it is just SOOOOO much better than the crap anime material :( and it also works on the Hollow (Bleach) article. - Access Timeco 16:49, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The only time that image is going to go is when the anime reaches the Espada meeting during the Hueco Mundo arc, when all ten Espada are in a single picture. And only if that picture is half-decent. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 00:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

i tought Arturo Plateado name was Altoro Plateado so wich is it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Revan376 (talk • contribs) 14:46, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nell's officially romanized name

I just saw the cover of the new chapter. Before I go on a renaming rampage can anyone verify if this is the real deal? Twsl 07:00, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Wait until the scans actually come out, and then we'll change it. It avoids possible problems later. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 07:07, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

It's still Nell; the second L is attached to the bottom of the N. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.243.70.34 (talk) 18:09, 6 September 2007 (UTC) Edit: I just changed it back to Nell. PLEASE don't revert it, because that is how her name is spelled. Or at least wait until the chapter shows up.

There's definitely not two L's in that picture... Kangarugh22 20:16, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

71.243.70.34 is right. There IS two L's. The second is, like he said, "attached to the bottom of the N". - Access Timeco 22:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

I probably should have looked in here first before editing, but with at least one scan out now, there's nothing to suggest that the N is merged with an L. 69.65.70.103 16:05, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

I said it based on the right side of the letter, where you can see that the N ends right after it meets Nell's head, so the long part on the left side should be another letter (an L). But now, seeing Nnoitra's cover, I see that the N lower part deffinetly have a horizontal part that is missing before the supposedly L. So, I am not sure of anything anymore XPPPPP

If I have to guess, I would stay with it being two letters merged since everyone who was an Espada has a double letter (Ulquiorra, Grimmjow, Luppi, Szayel Aporro, Nnoitra, Aaroniero, Yammy, Dordonii, Cirucci)... but, well, we know Nell is just a nickname, so it doesn't have to follow this apparent "rule" anyway. - Access Timeco 16:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Not to sound condescending, but with the upper portion of the right side of the N extending to the right in a similar fashion, there is zero reason to believe that there is a hybridized N/L character signifying a double L in the spelling of her nickname. The cover page clearly shows "N E L", and imagining the possibility of entire letters being hidden behind the character is completely speculation. I've seen very crowded cover pages, as was the case with Nnoitra, but has ther ever been a history of two characters being represented by one, hybrid character? 69.65.70.103 16:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you spell words diagonally with different sized letters and in different directions? Of course not. Kubo does, though, so until we get a clear, full view shot, it's Nell. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 18:31, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

A high quality image of the cover was released some good hours ago on Jojohot's chinese scanlation. And, yeah, I agree with 69.65.70.103, it is Nel. - Access Timeco 18:43, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

And now that a normal raw is out, I do as well. Just funny accented lines. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 18:50, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

...And then the data book will come out and say it's actually spelled "Nerl". Oh well, such is life. --tjstrf talk 19:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

That wouldn't surprise me in the least. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 19:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image for Nell...

Is it possible we could switch back to the old one? Because that new image looks really...weird. Either that, or we can have to images of her child form and her adult from combined into one image. see Grand Fisher's image and you know what I'm talking about..RedEyesMetal 11:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Sure we can. I will not do this because the new one shows her fullbody, so I prefer it. But if you want the old one, you can go there and change the image to NellTu (Tou? Can't remember).jpg. I believe no one will complain. - Access Timeco 13:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Actually I prefered the previous one as well. She doesn't have anything that makes her body special/important so in my opinion just a picture of the face will do =). Seeing you give your permission to change it back, I'm changing it back. Twsl 15:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Related to Nel, perhaps we should include a picture of her release? An arrancar's resurrectión is an extremely important part of their nature and powers, and it makes sense to me to include Nel's. Kyouraku-taichou 23:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it'd be good to clutter this page with more images. But then again, Nel should definitely have her own page by now. She's as notable as, if not more so than, Nnoitra or Szayel.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 23:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Both have whom it's been decided will be merged once their roles in the story are over. I'm not sure why we're waiting until then, but whatever. ~SnapperTo 03:24, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Well if she's going to have an own page I wouldn't have anything against it. But to have three different pictures of the same character in an article that consists of a bunch of other characters could be a bit too much Twsl 10:42, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

If you ever do decide to put up Nell in her released form use this: Nell_tu_gamuza.jpg. I added that image but then i found this section of discussion so i toke it out. User Tosta mista 19:55, 2 November 2007

Somebody merged the two images of Nel Tu so i added the image mentioned above, also the image wasn't properly racionalized ( sorry i'm new a this), so i did that to, the only problem is that they haven't deleted the warning in the image itself, so i dont now what will happen. If you want to take it out, do it, if not and the image gets deleted, i will get a new one.--Tosta mista 18:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok i get that people toke out that image of Nel in release form, that doe not bug me. BUT for some reason they keep puting That double image in the right, it looks terribel in that side, the image looks better to the left. Who keeps putting back to the right?--Tosta mista 11:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Tosta mista, images on Wikipedia are generally put on the right, unless there's a good reason not to. It doesn't really matter to me personally, but there doesn't seem to be any problem with putting that particular image on the right-hand side, so why do you insist putting it on the left? -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 12:09, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I guess I'm the culprit :( It's too bad why you don't exactly say why you think it looks terrible. But for me, well I think it looks orderly if all the pictures are aligned to the right, instead of all except one picture aligned to the right. Also, by moving the picture to the left, half of the text gets nudged to the right. While the other half at the other hand, is still at the left. I don't really see the point in doing that. I also think that it's easier and more comfortable to read if all the text are aligned. -Twsl 17:16, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current pictures of the Espada -> released or non-released?

While I was reading the previous topic, I was wondering, is there ever decided to use only released or only non-released pictures to illustrate the members of the Espada? Somebody recently changed the picture of Luppi to a released version. I actually think that the non-released version of the Espada can hold some relevance as well. In Luppi's case he doesn't change that much, but (for example) Aaroniro does. The current article consists of released/non-released arrancar mixed together (well actually Luppi is the only one in a released state). Question 1: could we change that to just one type for the consistency? Question 2: Could we "merge" two pictures together like the Grandfisher picture? I'd prefer a merge. Of course this doesn't apply for all the arrancar, but just the Espada that have an own picture at the moment. The "gillian 5" etc. should be left alone since they're minor characters. I'd like to hear your thoughts please =) Twsl 15:38, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Nice one for the Luppi pic, it was me who uploaded the released form. I uploaded a new version for better view. Its a bit ugly, but oh well. Its true, Luppi doesn't change that much, nor does Grimmjow(does long hair and panter like body count?At least his structure is the same) So maybe we should upload release and non release.--Hanaichi 12:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, the new version is fine =D Twsl 13:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd consider Grimmjow's release a significant change, considering how much his face shifts. Luppi does hardly change at all though; just a new helmet and weapon. --tjstrf talk 03:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nell Tu

Even though the scantilation is probably one day away, you should still not post speculation. Nell does not have a zanpakuto in that picture, and we don't know what number she was. 75.0.189.185 23:13, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't Nel be with the rest of the Privaron Espada?67.42.214.24 00:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

No, of course not. The Privarons all have triple-digit numbers and lived in Tres Cifras. They're also all still on Aizen's side, as well as being "natural" ones as opposed to being created from the Hougyoku. Since Nel has a tattoo, one'd think she's an artificial one and therefore isn't anything like a Privaron. 75.0.189.185 01:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Nell DOES have a zanpaktou, you can see it clearly on page 11, and 13 Also, is it possible that Pesse and Dondo are Nell's Fraction? I know the Fraction are suppose to be arrancar, but is it possible since they can sense her transformation? (24.205.190.225 18:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC))

When I posted that, Chapter 291 wasn't out, and you can't see her Zanpakuto anywhere in Chapter 290, please check the timestamp before saying things like this. Your second point is pure speculation and cannot possibly be verified 75.0.189.185 23:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Nel is an "Natural" Espada, they stated in the last chapter that's it's been years since she was kicked out and they only had the Hougyoku for what? 3 months now?

That's a bit vague at the moment. During the flashback of Dordonii we clearly see that Nnoitra was one of the first born by the hogyoku. So how was he able to kick her out "years ago" while he was born just three months ago? I wonder if what he said was true.. Twsl 09:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Hah!It means everyone is a liar! Lol joking joking. How do you know whether Nel is a Natural Espada? It was never stated. As for Nnoitra, he could be just lying the same way Arleri did to Rukia. --Hanaichi 09:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Regardless of how she was made Nel is clearly no longer an Espada. She is even fighting against Aizen. I propose she be moved to 'Other'.

I agree. Although making another section for ex-/dead espada and throwing luppi, nell etc. in it while allowing only the current living espada in the espada-section could work well too in my opinion. -Twsl (talk) 13:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page for Nell?

I can't help but think, given how much time has been spent on her of late, that Nell deserves her own page---at least, if Ulquiorra and Grimmjow do. Corbmobile 23:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Not yet, there isn't enough material to write about her, even less than Ulq. At least Ulq was credited with two invasions of the real world, and actually kidnapping Orihime.75.0.189.185 00:51, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Wait until the end of her fight with Nnoitra, then ask again.

Point taken. Probably should wait until then. Corbmobile 04:22, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

unsigned comment added by 71.243.92.78 (talk) 01:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I dunno...I think she has enough "character" to herself already that merits her own page. But, thats my opinion anyways. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.188.24.125 (talk) 22:43, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree she has much information for a page of her own. (Speaker180 18:09, 14 October 2007 (UTC))

We know alot more about her than we do some of the other guys, like Nnoitra. That alone deserves a page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.188.24.125 (talk) 02:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, virtually none of the Bleach characters "deserve" their own pages due to failure of the WP:NOTABILITY guidelines. –Gunslinger47 02:50, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, if we did that the pages of intros would be way too long. Anyways, I think next chapter would be perfect for her page. More info on the Zanpaktou, her released form and description of appearance and whatnot. And if it isn't enough you could go alittle more in depth with the information. Raf 09:37, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Colored image of adult Nel Tu

I'd like to add an image of adult Nel but as there are no official colored images I wanted to add an image like shown below. Is it not allowed to use colored images that resembles the same colors as the original? Or are we only allowed to use strictly official colored images? Is there some kind of policy regarding this? Thanks =) Twsl 10:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

No fan work, it is a breach of copyright of the author. It can only be colour if the author has released colour, or just have a black and white picture of Nel's "Espada" form, or wait until the anime reaches that point. σмgнgσмg 10:41, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, that's clear, deleting the image. Thanks! Twsl 11:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

No problem. σмgнgσмg 12:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Privaronespada.JPG

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BetacommandBot 04:48, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pesshe and Dondo

Considering the latest chapter said that Nnoitra removed their masks, so shouldn't they be under Numeros as they techinically are arrancar?--Hanaichi 14:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

yea, i suppose they are.. i still wonder if they were already arrancar and nnoitra basically removed the mask remnants or if they were just regular hollows.. but either way they're supposed to be arrancar now, i think.. so yeah :) Twsl 17:24, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

They're clearly not arrancar anymore, nor is it actually made clear that they were even arrancar to begin with, come to think of it. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 23:01, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

When they were lying on the ground we could clearly see the clothes. Until now we have never seen a regular hollow with clothes on and furthermore, if they were regular hollows, would their sanity still be intact enough to be nell's loyal servants? i doubt it. It was clear to me that they just have to revert back to their old arrancar form. buuut of course i don't really have hard evidence when i think about it, so lets wait =D Twsl 12:11, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan. To add to that, Aizen didn't have the Orb at the time, so it's safe to assume hollows would have to do in the absence of arrancar. Plus, for the amount of blood they showed, their masks would have had to be fairly intact. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:20, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

In the latest chapter, both Pesshe and Dondo pull out "swords". Since no ordinary hollows before have had any weapons, it would be best to assume that they are Arrancar, unless Arrancar who are damaged back to hollow status retain their Zanpakuto. Szayel also refers to them as Fraccion, and since the only canon evidence we have is that Fraccion are only Arrancar (again, Szayel says things to back this up.) it would probably be best to move them to Numeros. 71.1.243.81 16:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Also agree that they should be move to the section under numeros seeing as the have clearly been label as fracction as the have Zanpakuto, also by what has been show and hinted it would be safe to say that they are infact Nel's fracction.WhiteStrike 01:56, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Nobody seems to be replying to this so, if by tomorrow, nobody, replys to this i'm going forward and moving then to numeros. And if someone thinks i misplaced then in the numeros section simply put them were you think it's best.--Tosta mista 00:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

There's still no proof that they're anything but powerful hollows, and items do not count. A sword is not a zanpakuto unless labeled as such. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 03:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

My gut said that they were arrancar. But the fact that they didn't release their "zanpakto" and szayel actually knew that they couldn't do anything else after the cero syncr. makes me doubt. I'm afraid we still can't make a decision based on what we've seen so far. There is no hard evidence that they're arrancar except that we know that their mask is broken, brutally ripped off the head even. Does that necessarily make you an arrancar? Compare it with the pre-hougyoku-arrancarization of Grandfisher, if they could make him change into an arrancar just by ripping off his mask (instead of that whole mummy-process) wouldn't they've already done so?

But at the other hand, what real proof do we have to say that they're just regular (though powerful) hollows? Is it enough to be 100% certain that they belong to the "regular hollows"-section? Shouldn't they be placed at the "others"-section until we know what they really are? -Twsl 10:04, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Just have to wait and see. But for now, leave them as hollow until futher information. σмgнgσмg 10:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

so we wait. ok, but they WERE arrancar that part is confirmed. so i think at the very least somebody should put that in there.--Tosta mista 11:44, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

No, it's not. They were Fraccion. There's no proof that those of that rank "have" to be arrancar. Hell, Syazel makes his own. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 19:42, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

shouldn't we move them under Arrancar? It's been explicitly state that they have had their masks removed, even if it was against their will ReshenKusaga (talk) 02:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Since they were fraccion, they were almost certainly arrancar before. Right now though they are missing both the main criteria for an arrancar, namely a partial mask (both of theirs are clearly whole) and a zanpakuto (not tools as stated above), which would leave them as a normal hollows.76.125.30.148 (talk) 01:24, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

one episode Pesche claimed he was an arrancar.24.125.84.98 (talk) 21:51, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Neliel surname

In chapter 294, Tesla called her "Neliel Tu Oder". So Oderschvank should be splitted into "Oder Schvank". Until we get the official romanization, that's it. 82.50.157.17 00:51, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow. Four names? (Well, unless "tu" is something like "de" or "von.")—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 01:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

well it could be the same as calling someone "jen" instead of "jennifer" because the name is too long or whatever. Twsl 21:14, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

We're not talking about a name, but a surname.82.48.49.223 01:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

In the same chapter, in his immediately prior sentence, Tesla calls Ichigo "Kuro". Shall we change his name to Ichigo Kuro Saki? –Gunslinger47 03:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Considering the fact that the whole name is quite clearly written in three distinct parts, and if I'm not mistaken the kanji type is that kind used for foreign words, I'd have to agree with Gunslinger. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 04:33, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

LOL Are you joking Gunslinger47 ? It was Orihime that was saying "Kuro..." (meaning "Kurosaki-kun", as always) just before Tesla take her by the neck, effectively stopping her before she can complete her sentence. 82.52.32.92 23:44, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Regardless, the kanji is written as three distinct words, not four. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:39, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

There's no kanji in her name dude. You don't know much about japanese, do you?82.52.32.92 01:34, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Whatever the hell it's called, it's written in three parts, not four. The entire basis for your argument is that they clipped her name in one spot. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Just like Dondo Chakka and Szayel Aporro. Both are just one thing in kana, but we still divide them into 2 names here in wikipedia, don't we? - Access Timeco 23:03, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Szayel Aporro is officially romanized. He doesn't count. I'll give you Dondo. Still, Nel's name is written whole first and truncated second. That he didn't pronounce her whole name is no more indicative of a split than "Ichi" being used by Ichig's sisters. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 00:04, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

You're right that it was Orihime who said that, which weakens my point slightly. –Gunslinger47 01:52, 12 October 2007 (UTC)\

This is the most ridiculous argument I've ever seen. Case in point: Look at Yachiru, for God's sake. She calls Kenpachi Ken-chan. Does this mean we should change his name to Ken Pachi Zaraki? Muramasa itachi 16:07, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nel's zanpaktou

Before I participate into a revert war, please don't add Nel's release command due to WP:CBALL. There may be the slightest chance that the release command is not "declare". I believe that it is "declare" but we have to just wait and see. We can't just speculate. σмgнgσмg 14:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Its definetely the release command. A person just doesn't hold out his or her zanpakuto and say " declare..." or something else. --Hanaichi 13:41, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

One of the translators said that it's hard to decide how to translate that releasecommand, basically because it can have different meanings. He also stated that it's a lot easier to translate it if we would know the whole releasecommand thingy (you know, usually it's more than one word, like "grind, panthera" or whatev. that could also explain why some translated it as "sing". but meh, that's just one source. i think we won't know for sure until next week. Twsl 16:18, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

She says utae (謳え, utae^?), which is the verb "sing", but in the imperative. It can mean a few different things depending on context. To express, to state, to insist, to stipulate, and yes, to declare. I don't think we're going to get any more context from the next chapter, however. I think "declare!" works well, or perhaps "testify!", or you could just use the English word sing in the imperative, like "sing it!" for example. –Gunslinger47 17:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Aaroneiro's last name...

Okay, what is it? I've just changed it back to "Arleri" cuz that was what we were using before. Someone had changed it to "Arururie". Can someone help before we have an edit war starting?

RedEyesMetal 20:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Read the edit summary that Access Timeco (or the IP that I'm assuming was Access Timeco before he logged in) put up. Apparently, there's a new official romanization out there... --GhostStalker(Got a present for ya! | Mission Log) 20:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I should have added it to the discussion. Sorry, but like GhostStalker said, I explained it at the edit summary: new romanization were revealed here: http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9026/arrancarbagmk2.jpg (this image and the thread explaining it were posted at Bleachasylum by the user Kira).
As you can see, some diverge from the manga (Szayelaprro and Nnoitora). In those cases, I suggest we keep the manga version, since we know KT made them. The other names, howere, we should use the only official romanization given so far (those ones that were on the purse that came as a bonus with the new anime DVD). - Access Timeco 20:52, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

More official romanizations in a folder that came along with the bag and the DVD: http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/chbimun/arrancar_000.jpg (thanks to chbimun, bleachasylum). - Access Timeco 19:58, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I was gonna ask this too. So we're using Arerurie as the official one now, since it was on the purse with the DVD? Muramasa itachi 16:02, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] About the new informations

The japanese wiki already included Nnoitra's last name and Ruruu as the 7th (since it is spoiler of the last chapter, the information is not visible. You have to go to the "edit" area to see it). Actually, Ruruu gives his full name:
ゾマリ・ルルー (ZoMaRi RuRu-)
We still wait for the raw or it is enough? - Access Timeco 12:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Not enough —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.107.131.129 (talk) 13:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Why not? I think as long something can be verified, we put it there. Latest chapter came out in Jap, Jap wiki has it, so why not?--Hanaichi 14:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Done and done! RedEyesMetal 19:33, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

How did they get "Le Roux" from ルルー ? Big red01027 08:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Byakuya

"He has recently appeared in the most recent chapters, in which he walks toward a barely conscious Rukia and declares to Aaroniero's dead body that the only true way to make sure your opponent is dead is to chop its head off, which he prepares to do, only to be halted due to the timely arrival of Byakuya Kuchiki." I just double checked 297 and looked for 298 (so I don't think it's out). 297 never shows Byakuya, nor does it even show Zomari halting, he just draws his zanpakuto and then the scene switches. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.91.28.221 (talk) 21:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Spoilers for latest chapter and images have surfaced. That info is confirmed. The great kawa 21:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yylfordt?

What prompted the change? Or was this just vandalism? (76.86.179.37 03:04, 4 November 2007 (UTC))

Nope, it was on the official DVD and merchandise bag. --Hanaichi 03:27, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

In case you're wondering (and for future references) these new names can be found at http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9026/arrancarbagmk2.jpg resulting in:
Gantenbein -> Gantenbainne Mosqueda
Aaroniero -> Aaroniero Arruruerie
Pesshe -> Pesche Guatiche
D.Roy -> Di Roy
Nakim -> Nakeem
Grantz -> Granz
Other names can be found here: http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a304/chbimun/arrancar_000.jpg resulting in:
Illforte -> Yylfordt
Edorad -> Edrad
Wonderwice -> Wonderweiss
Hope this will help in reducing the namechanges all the time -Twsl 11:18, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

in that second link nnoitra is spelled nnoitora. should why change him, another one is szaeyl aporro, its written szayelaprro, should whe also change is name.--Tosta mista 12:09, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

There are two different (official) romanizations of those names, the ones made by Kubo himself and the ones on the merchandise stuff. Although a majority of those names are the same on both sides, there are some exceptions. In that case we choose to use the romanizations made by Kubo himself, instead of those on the merchandisebag/folder -Twsl 12:28, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

If some of them are WRONG, we can't take them as official.87.15.93.35 23:35, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Sadly, Kubo didn't provide the official names for the other characters. So we use Kubo's official spelling, but when not available, we use the official merchandise. Hey, I got a bleach folder which says "Abarai Renai" lol.--Hanaichi 10:01, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it is not unlikely that some of those romanizations are typos as well? Some of them seem to be pretty non-sensical. Big red01027 08:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe we should convert the names of the characters such as Nakim, Ilfort Grantz, Wonderwice, Edorad, or D-Roy, because they were Romanized by Dattebayo, especially since they've spelled "Wonderwice" both when he was introduced and in the Arrancar Encyclopedia when Tousen talked about him.

Blatant examples of why they shouldn't have been converted are "Szayel Aporro" and "Nnoitra"

Do we even know that this bag was licensed by KT?

And "Zomali" is an African name, but every time I try to change it from "Zomari" someone keeps editing it back.

WTF. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xmikeyxlikesitx (talk • contribs) 08:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Dattebayo is not official in any capacity, and we use official romanizations where possible. Failing that, popular use wins out. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 08:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

What is the "official" source for Zomari's name? Big red01027 09:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Currently, its the scanlations + kanji characters I think. --Hanaichi 09:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

That's what I figured, but you never know. Especially with people finding "official" romanizations on purses and the like. Big red01027 09:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Let's keep the offical romanisation until the official release of the name. σмgнgσмg 09:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

But will we keep the Le Roux? I mean, it doesn't even fit the kana. I know "Le Roux is the name of an architect", I know, but... we ALL know although KT base the sound of the Arrancar's names in names of architects he NEVER (EEEVER) used one of their names (what assure us that RuRu- can be romanized as anything but Le Roux). - Access Timeco 00:50, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Apply a French accent to "Le Roux" - it almost sounds like ルルー. Lol. σмgнgσмg 00:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I would have to apply a "someone smashed my lips with a bat" french accent to it :/ - Access Timeco 01:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I know, but they should change it to レルー, then "Le Roux" would work. σмgнgσмg 02:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, the ja:Wiki's ルルー page has links to Gaston Leroux, Charles Leroux, and François Leleux. JWPce's built-in dictionary has "Leroux," "Le Roux," and "Leloup" as possible Romanizations for ルルー.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 03:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, Omghomg, it seems that レルー isn't used, anywhere. French "le"s are usually rendered as ル – for example, Leblanc is ルブラン.— Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 03:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, what do you know? So Leroux it is! (well, so Leroux it can be, but that's already enough). So, shouldn't we at least use "Leroux" instead of "Le Roux" if we are taking the common romanizations? I will make it a single word, but you guys feel free to revert (well, this IS a free encyclopedia, but I like to sound a good guy XP) - Access Timeco 20:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I was actually joking when I said we should change it to レルー. Oh well. Doesn't matter. At least we all agreed on one thing, stick with "Le Roux". XD σмgнgσмg 10:56, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Luppi.JPG

Image:Luppi.JPG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 03:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grand Fisher

I've seen every episode of Bleach up to the current point. I was just wondering, where is the image from the lower left of the picture from? And what context did it appear? I don't recall ever seeing it. Just curious. Ganbatte! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.228.113.62 (talk) 08:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it was a flashback? I don't think I've seen it either. Big red01027 10:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

That pic has been taken from a game or something. This subject was brought up before, just browse through the talkpage-archive if you want to know the source of the pic. -Twsl 12:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] request to separate Arrancar from Hollow page

it seems the data for the Arrancar is getting quite robust and full,

any chance we can give it its own page? Murakumo-Elite (talk) 23:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Given that arrancar are 84.5% of this article's contents, moving them to a different article isn't going to solve any size issues. ~SnapperTo 04:55, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

If the page becomes too big for its own good, then separation should be considered. It's fine for the time being. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 07:35, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Just so you know

the ranks of the top three espada were revealed, SPOILERS Stark is first. Halibel is second, Old man is third. I saw a manga on youtbe video along with spoilers for chapter 301. i don'y know if it´s legit but the other spoiler pics of the video were real.--89.152.53.2 (talk) 16:56, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Just so you know, I've read chapter 301 and there is nothing about the ranks of the top 3 Espada. I dunno whether YouTube can be trusted as a source but there was nothing in the new chapter about the top 3. Unless there's a part which I missed, then I dunno.--Hanaichi 02:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I also read 301, and there's no reference to the Old Guy Espada being called "Avaron van Verde" either. Big red01027 (talk) 22:01, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

that part wasn't even in the chapter, but i saw the spoiler video to, there was a rank table, the top three, acording to it, had no name written so the avaron van verde is lie, but the table seems pretty real, just saying.--Tosta mista (talk) 10:27, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure it isn't some fan made rumour video guessing the espada numbers? I went on youtube and found so many of them, and due to popular belief, it was 1- Stark, 2- Halibel, 3- Old man. Still speculation. --Hanaichi 11:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure that this guy is correct.Although scanlations can be a little wrong,the name of the old espada is not far off.Also Stark and Halibel have the rankings 1 and 2.But until the other chapters come out, this is not for sure.This guy was talking about the bleach spoiler previews not bleach 301.--User:DavidEGonzalez (UTC)

Can you provide a link to this spoiler preview so that everyone knows that the information is reliable? So far, no one has provided a source for these claims. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 02:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

It's fake, just some made up spoiler meant for last week's chapter. I can't believe people are still fixated on this crap. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 02:46, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3vE-PAUI1I

Somebody asked for this, it's a link to the spoiler vid.--Tosta mista (talk) 19:53, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

That last frame is so obviously fake, and even if it were real, it doesn't list the name of the top 3 Espada. Safe to say that we don't know their names yet. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Wonderwice Margera.png

Image:Wonderwice Margera.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 21:52, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problem

The japanesse characters(letters) are all loking like squares. I would fix it but i have no idea how.--Tosta mista 20:20, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

That's your computer. Download character support. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 22:11, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nel's Fraccion

Should Nel's fractions be moved to arrancar, or stay at hollows? Technically, they are arrancar, since they do possess 'swods', but... their masks are different. Should a note also be made that hollow masks can be changed in extreme circumstances? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.151.64.72 (talk) 20:48, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

No, because they don't possess zanpakuto. They possess weapons, which is different as long as we have no further information. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 20:53, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

You are taking an absolutely ridiculous line here---they were fraccion, hence they were at some point arrancar, although it is possible that they aren't anymore. The fact that they both have swords is pretty much irrefutable proof---can you site an example of a non-arrancar hollow carrying a sword? Corbmobile (talk) 02:15, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Can you show me proof that they're arrancar? They don't carry zanpakuto, and those cool weapons they produce don't count, because neither are swords in the traditional sense. The onus isn't on me to prove they aren't, it's on you to prove they are, and you cannot do that without delving into original research, which automatically invalidates your point in regards to adding it here. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 02:28, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

Pesche's sword Ultima is a katana. That's about ass traditional as you can. Nnoitra's is a poleaxe of somekind...so, is he not an arrancar? They were Nel's fraccion, and there is nothing to indicate that hollows were ever used as fraccion. Szayel even says that a fraccion is simply a numero that an Espada uses as a subordinate. Corbmobile (talk) 23:12, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

it's an energy sword, just like uryu's sword-arrow thing. He even makes the comparison himself. Also, if they were arrancar, why have they yet to correct anyone about the fact? Until they say it or show that their intact masks come off, it can't be state3d for a fact. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 07:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Alright, I'm sorry for my combative tone. But both Dondochakka and Pesche's weapons have hilts just like the other arrancar's swords. Would it not be reasonable to at least say that it seems quite likely they are arrancar, or were at some point? Corbmobile (talk) 20:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Soon as we start using "could", "likely", and other such words, it becomes speculation. Speculation can't be added. Granted, it seems as if they should be arrancar given their position and unique powers, but we can't really prove it and thus can't add it. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 01:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure. Thank you for clearing this mystery up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.151.64.72 (talk) 22:03, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, in Nnoitra's flashback we saw them using Arrancar's outfits AND Szayel Aporro called them "Neliel's fracción". I am pretty sure this is enough to list them as Arrancar. - 189.71.76.239 (talk) 14:25, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ulquiorra CIFER

Bleach: Heat the Soul 5: http://www.jp.playstation.com/scej/title/bleach/heat5/sfw2/
His name is romanized Ulquiorra Cifer. - 189.71.76.239 (talk) 14:12, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Lol, not its not. http://usera.imagecave.com/WalkerTheRipper/WW/variation1.png  :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.188.25.23 (talk) 02:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More romanization: Sexta Fracción

Bleach: The 3rd Phantom site was updated with the villain from The DiamondDust Rebellion and Grimmjow's group: http://bleach.sega.jp/3rd
You can see all the characters names romanized and they are in accord with the first romanizations given: Yylfordt Granz, Nakeem, Di Roy, Edrad and, of course (since is was on a cover), Shawlong.
No only that, it also adds Shawlong and Edorad's surnames: Liones and Koufang. - 189.71.28.171 (talk) 23:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

We knew their last names when several official merchandise surfaced, the problem was romanizing it correctly as well as spelling it correctly. Thanks for the website. --Hanaichi 02:38, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah, that's an awesome find :) thanks! -Twsl (talk) 13:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

That site shows Ulquiorra's last name to be Schiffer. So is that one correct, or the Heat the Soul 5 page? Big red01027 (talk) 21:07, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yea, I'm confused with Ulquiorra's surname as well... One game character page says Cifer, the other Shiffer... Which one do we go with then? --GhostStalker(Got a present for ya! | Mission Log) 04:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Schiffer makes the most sense to me. Big red01027 (talk) 11:16, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Its the same way pronounced right? Schiffer and Cifer sound the same...well almost.--Hanaichi 11:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Old Man Espada: Avaron Van Verde?

This is something really unusual that I ran into: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=4240 / http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=1259

Accordingly to that Japanese-cast credit list, the voice actor who did the old-man Espada, Shozo Iizuka, is credited under the name of "Avaron Van Verde." Now, I don't want to jump to any conclusions...but I'd like to know a little bit more on this matter. It *appears* legit, since several mediums here and there received canonical information regarding the series even before the manga itself.(such as the appearance of Nejibana, as well as Hisagi's own zanpakutou). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.188.25.23 (talk) 10:20, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

"Avaron Van Verde" exists only in a fake translation of chapter 301. You'd think, after reading the actual chapter 301, Anime News Network would have figured out he is never actually named. ~SnapperTo 21:37, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

But thats just it. They would've, but there's no way they'd be that ignorant. Besides, Chapter 301 was released AFTER the Espada meeting was animated. There's a good chance whoever created the fake spoiler got the name from a credits list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.188.25.23 (talk) 22:17, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

And theres a good chance everyone was just fooled. No naming is to be done if we cannot verify the source properly.--Hanaichi 02:23, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the old man's name is Barragan, evidently, although Avaron van Verde seems like a much better name to me >.< Muramasa itachi (talk) 00:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

Everyone knows the drill by now, so I shouldn't need to explain why these need to be merged. TTN (talk) 00:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge. No need waiting for nonexistant notability. If any English media give Ulquiorra or Grimmjow (the only ones that possibly could receive any measure of coverage) significant mention, then we can recreate their articles. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 00:26, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge. No notibility whatsoever has been found, third party sources, real world info, or any significant coverage. Although their appearance in the English media world is quite far off, I doubt they will recieve any real world info either way because even the main 5 haven't recieved anything yet (exception of Orihime). Its better to merge then AFD.--Hanaichi 02:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep as is. The current articles would get WAY too cluttered as it is. I personally believe we need begin separating, rather than merging. Keeping it organized is one thing, but shoving it all in one place certainly isn't the proper method to stay organized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.188.25.23 (talk) 03:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment Obviously you probably haven't read the many guidelines which lead people into AFD'ing the articles. Please go read WP:N,WP:FICT, and WP:ILIKEIT. If no real information can be found, then articles have to be merge or AFD, the last and worse method to use.--Hanaichi 03:28, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge. This seems to go without saying.—Ｌｏｖｅはドコ？ (talk • contribs) 04:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment Merging the four would make the article too large. So, I'd suggest axing most of the Fracción and shortening many of the remaining entries first. ~SnapperTo 04:15, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Removing the minor Fracción and placing them in the entry of their respective Espada is probably best. Just a sentence of Espada X has Fracción Y. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 20:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep as is Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 08:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

And what rationale are you giving? If you can assert notability, then do so by showing relevant sources. Given that no English media has even gotten to the arrancar (save a few games, which is trivial), absolutely no notability can be asserted for them unless you are willing to bring up reliable Japanese sources. I also find it also extremely doubtful notability can be proved for Szayel, Nnoitra, and similar, given how minor they are in the scheme of the overall series. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 09:21, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Why bother arguing? TTN will just revert war until he gets his way anyways. Kyaa the Catlord (talk) 19:01, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

If you're going to ignore my entire post and simply make ad hominem arguments, then I have nothing to say. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 20:04, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Sure, no one needs to be explained. We want to blank our most visited articles with a drive-by nomination and no real discussion. -- Cat ^chi? 14:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep - whether real-world sources are needed to assert the notability of a fictional character is constantly debated and the articles can be separated only per WP:SIZE. It's not that there's a great argument for keeping per se, it's that there's absolutely no argument for deletion. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment - on a side note, I don't mind an AfD for every single article in question, even though it disadvantages my side of the argument (most Wikipedians seem to be pro-merge). AfDs are much more neutral and objective than these simple straw polls, and you need a greater majority to delete/merge (which is fair). -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:05, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Local consensus is fine for our purposes. An AfD is only necessary if consensus here fails to reach an outcome, and TTN feels obliged to have the community determine the consensus for us. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 20:06, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge per nom, but keep them categorized in Category:Arrancar in Bleach, especially since the guideline allows a category as such. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 20:59, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge as per all of the merge comments above. Greg Jones II 01:03, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge — non-notable fictional characters are better covered (succinctly) in a list. --Jack Merridew 08:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep - I think the system looks alright, and I am sick and tired of this merging and trimming. The more trimming that's done, the worser the page looks. Either that or we make a new, sub-article called List of Bleach Espada with all the information kept on each of the characters, but condensed down just a little, not bloody smooshed into two paragraphs. I think it should be like this for each character if my suggestion is taken up:

• First Paragraph: Describes Character Outline and Personality
• Second Paragraph: Role in the story
• Third Paragraph: Powers, Abilities, & Zanpakuto Release

Anyone think it's a good idea? RedEyesMetal (talk) 21:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

That format is, for the most part, already in use. The exception is that a character's role in the story is not given unless it is significant to the character (ie. their death). ~SnapperTo 22:41, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Either Keep, as Ulquiorra has been a significant character since the start of the Arrancar arc responsible for several key events in the manga, or go with the idea to create a List of Bleach Espada article to keep the List of Bleach Hollows article from getting cluttered. However, I have to say I'm more in favor of keeping it because he, as with the other Espada who have their own articles, are quite significant characters. Merging into the already ludicrously overcrowded List of Bleach Hollows is unnecessary, and putting it on AfD is ludicrous. Viewtiful Rekk (talk) 02:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep per WP:SIZE concerns. The articles would just get too cluttered up, and besides, not everyone knows the drill. I certainly don't know the drill, TTL, therefore you have no rationale as far as I am concerned. Sasuke9031 (talk) 22:06, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep Agree with Kyaa and Ynhockey. Big red01027 (talk) 10:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment And what happens when people start giving the articles AFDs? Its would either result in delete, or merge, but not keep due to the lack of real world information. I don't mind with Redeyes idea, making a separate list for the Espada, and therefore all the information can go there, thereby satisfying the WP:SIZE concern.--Hanaichi 11:01, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

To add to that, no matter what, these will have to be merged eventually (unless real world information is found, which is unlikely). The people wanting to keep them can either help with the process, or just drag this out for a number of months, leaving us with giant section breaks, and possibly a few AfDs. It would be much more beneficial for you people to search for real world information or just help with the process in general. TTN (talk) 21:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The real world information doesn't exist for these characters. No English media has reached the part of the storyline in which these characters are situated, and nearly all of these characters have very recently been introduced or expanded upon in the manga. In any case, several of these characters are apparently about to be killed off in quick succession, and at that point, have little to no influence on the remainder of the plot. Unless someone is going to dig through Japanese sources for something reliable that is more likely that not extremely difficult to find, then notability is not going to be asserted by any stretch of the imagination. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 01:04, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

The truth is Grimmjow and Ulquiorra are the only two who have actually been significant to the plot. So, if you wanna erase their articles, then put them back this time next year because the English Media will be there, then its gonna be stupid. I started to believe Szayel was death proof, but he is about to be killed off unless Kubo makes another ridiculous way to keep him alive. If he is killed off, kindly re-write his character into three/four nicely detailed paragraphs, not bloody two paragraphs which don't tell jack about him (aka List of Major Characters in Naruto...) As for Noitora, he is really debatable, he's only merely started his fight with Kenpachi, so, he won't be killed off for awhile...Thoughts? RedEyesMetal (talk) 14:21, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as I have not seen one anime or manga character that is introduced in America gain any information besides bits from those very small translated interviews that are usually stuck at the end of the piece of media, I really cannot imagine a couple of secondary characters receiving any. They certainly won't be brought back unless Kubo suddenly decides to be different than the rest of the authors. TTN (talk) 14:27, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. I still say merge before an AFD comes up. And I still don't see any real world information coming up, nor anyway it will come as a matter of fact. We handled ourselves pretty well by not making a Nell Tu page, and I think Nnoitra's a definete merge. Szayel, a bit lenghty, but could be done. Ulquiorra, is one of the stubiest Espada articles we have. In fact, Szayel beats Grimmjow, Ulquiorra and Grimmjow in information terms otherwise. I think all should be merged, however, Grimmjow might stand a chance in finding some information that asserts notability. --Hanaichi 14:38, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Given that's Szayel's role in the story is likely over, a mention of his final fate and the events leading up to it will be made. Don't, however, expect a step by step recount of the battle, as that would be completely pointless. As for your suggestion that two paragraphs don't tell "jack" about a character, I fail to see how that is the case. What cannot be found in the two paragraphs that detail Luppi that is detrimental to understanding his character? What would really be lost when, after merging Ulquiorra, there was no mention of his role as Orihime's pimp? ~SnapperTo 21:56, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge - Everyone's already said the reasons (in universe, plot, no out-of-universe info, sources, etc.), so I won't make a large paragraph of what's already been said. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 21:32, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge There is no notibility at all. I doubt even the Ichigo article needs to exist. U-Two (talk) 01:55, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge If some of the Arrancar can't have one, then no Arrancar can. SuperGodzilla 2090 03:03, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep Certain articles That is not true that some Arrancar do not deserve their own articles. I believe Grimmjow and Ulquiorra have been around long enough to keep their own articles. They have been around for over a hundred chapters and they have played relatively important roles in the past two story arcs. In fact, Ichigo even admitted to Grimmjow it was his goal to be able to take both him and Ulquiorra down. Szayel and Nnorita could be merged because they have only been around for only one story arc and fifty something chapters, but I think you should wait a bit before you do.

Still Merge I still think that they don't deserve their own articles just because all the other Arrancar can be explaned by this list like Aaroniero Arruruerie or Halibel, they don't need their own articles.SuperGodzilla 2090 15:39, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment - Appearance length doesn't matter. However, I feel Grimmjow shouldn't be merged, but the other 3 probably. Waiting? We had one huge discussion way back last year, and I don't see why we can't merge the Espada if we had to merge other articles, example being Jushiro and Kira and Momo.--Hanaichi 03:43, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

In response to your question, Snapper, what I meant is that how I don't like seeing long, detailed information about characters being smooshed down into nothingness. For example, on the page List of Major Characters in Naruto, important characters like Neji, Lee etc. have been condensed down into nothing but two paragraphs. Now, if you turn your attention to Nell. She is described in four paragraphs; this includes character outline, history & summary, and Zanapkuto/Powers. This is a very nice outline, and I believe long-running characters should take up this format. Szayel can be desacribed like that. Luppi was a two-episode character, so he doesn't count. Ulquirroa can probably be done in around 3.5 if you include character outline, short summary & Powers. HanaIchi, I don't like the idea of Grimmjow being merged either, if a merge did happen, I'd like to see the information PROPERLY put into about 3/4 paragraphs. And I've already tested a List of Bleach Espada on my own sandbox, and it looks decent, if anyone wants to look here.. So, here is my final take on this.

• Grimmjow - Keep - Grimmjow has been an important character since the beginning of the Arrancarr Arc. Even know he's currently incapacitated, there could be a chance of him being revived.

• Szayel - Merge and trim down to 3/4 paragraphs. - But ONLY, and ONLY when we confirm his death 100%. Give it another week, and see.

• Noitora - Debatable - Kubo will probably shift back to the battle with him and Zaraki, and I'd like to see the outcome of the battle.

• Ulquirroa - Debatable - He's been trapped in that bloody prison for over 20 chapters, and frankly, I'm wondering if Kubo hasn't written him out of the story yet. I'd like to wait and see what happens with him.

So, there you have it, my two cents. Please comment. RedEyesMetal (talk) 14:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment that works. As long as we follow that format explicitly, merge all but Grimmjow per WP:CONS. Sasuke9031 (talk) 17:33, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge Szyael and Nnoitra, but Keep Grimmjow and Ulquiorra - I can understand wanting to merge the lesser Espada that look like they're gonna be killed rather quickly, but Grimmjow and Ulquiorra just seem too important to the storyline to merge. Then again, Lee and Neji were important to Naruto's storyline and they still got merged, but I still stand by my rationale. If not, I'd support the creation of an Espada (Bleach) page if the merged page grew too large... --GhostStalker(Got a present for ya! | Mission Log) 18:18, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ready to merge?

Are these ready to be merged at this point? I think the general consensus is to merge all four, at least based within arguments rather than raw numbers (which we don't do anyways). TTN (talk) 19:07, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with merging these articles. Szyael is dead now. He doesn't need an article anymore so his pictures should be deleted and his bio shortend to two or three paragraphs and stuck between Zommari and Aaroniero. U-Two (talk) 19:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

He's not dead yet —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.251.237.133 (talk) 23:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes He is. Let's get on with it. Supergodzilla^20|90 23:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Where's the proof beyond what it says on his page at present time? "Szayel is effectively paralyzed. Mayuri stabs him in the heart and breaks the blade off, leaving Szayel to suffer for what seems as an eternity to him, begging for a quick death." Mayuri left the blade in but they did not show him die. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.251.237.133 (talk) 00:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of whether he's dead or not, he's not notable. None of them are to be frank. Notions that they are "important" to the plot are irrelevant in every way, shape, and form. Banking on some glimpse of notability in the future from continuing to be in the story is not acceptable either. The fact that all of these characters have no (or very little, i.e. one non-prominent video game) presence in English media paints a realistic image of any of these characters' notability. Merge all of them. Sephiroth BCR ^(Converse) 01:01, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Looks like we're ready to do this. RedEyesMetal, i your test ready? Sasuke9031 (talk) 02:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, judging by our result, then yes. Szayel is now presumed as dead, so I'll get to work later on merging and trimming his article into 3-4, nice-looking paragraphs. PS: Does anyone still want to make the page List of Bleach Espada? I'm suggesting this as a good idea, so we don't have to lose all the information, but I'm getting ignored.. Anyone who wants to do it before me, do it RIGHT. I don't want to see no 2 paragraphs bullshit. BTW, can someone please archive this? It's getting a little bit on the big side..RedEyesMetal (talk) 10:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll do the list of espada page right now. Its better to split, considering WP:SIZE and peoples concerns about it. So guys, don't get shocked with a load of information from this page being moved.--Hanaichi 10:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Good. It is done then. Now to move the merge tag into the espada article. Doing so... now. Sasuke9031 (talk) 13:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arrancar description in Hollow section

I've been thinking about this for a while. There is the list of hollows seen in the manga/anime on this page, but the entire page is almost completely devoted to the arrancar. I suggest that we move the list of hollows in here to the Hollow (Bleach) article and rename this article List of Arrancar.IcyRukia (talk) 01:54, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Patros mini-arc

I have just restored the stuff that TTN deleted about the mini-arc with Patros trying to steal the orb of distortion. I don't think there's any particular reason to delete these characters (see also my arguments at Talk:List of Bleach characters), but even if a consensus is reached there to remove extremely minor characters, still Patros qualifies for a higher tier of notability due to being a major villain in a mini-arc (2 episodes). So even if his minions' entries in the list are deleted, there's no question that his should be kept. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 17:24, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Do Not Merge

If you got more info about a character it should get his own page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.88.62.6 (talk) 19:41, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Privaron Espada

now that the Priv. Espada have been animated, is it possible to replace their current picture with an animated one, it's okay if you guys don't.--Sanji_1990 (talk) 22:52, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merge Privaron Espada with the Espada list

It makes no sense if they're just under Bleach hollows. They were formerly Espada, so why not put them under that list for better organization? That way, people can learn all about the Espada on one page. --Autoplayer (talk) 16:41, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] English Names

Before I waste time editing this, only to have it reverted, would it make more sense to change the Arrancar names to thier English counterparts chosen by Viz? Shonen Jump has Edrad as Edorad, Di Roy as D-Roy, and so on. Or at least put a note that they're reffered to as such? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.176.16.199 (talk) 20:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Indicating what Viz calls them is fine, but changing the names to what Viz uses would require more of a discussion. ~SnapperTo 21:12, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the Viz translations make more sense than something someone found on a bag. Or whatever odd source was used to get those odd romanizations. Big red01027 (talk) 04:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Explain how it's supposed to make "more sense" please. I don't know much about VIz's other translation, but for the translations they've done for bleach, there are a lot of major screwups. For example calling Byakuya's release command "die" instead of "scatter" (they suddenly changed this in later chapters though). As well as kira's release command "show yourself" instead of "raise your head". To me, it's VIZ's translation that doesn't make sense most of the time. So pls, explain. Twsl (talk) 12:35, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Viz is not perfect, by any means, nor was I arguing such. I just think the Arrancar names that are up there now don't make sense given the kana and romaji. The person who began this discussion brought up Edorado and Di Roi. The romanizations that make the most sense to me would be Edorad and D-Roy, as he stated. Viz agrees, so I think those should be put there, since they're the "official" translators for this region. I'm not going to edit anything; I'm just expressing my opinion. So, take it or leave it. Big red01027 (talk) 23:00, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Who removed Fishbone D?

It has been brought to my attention with another edit in another article that the entry on Fishbone D was deleted. Why? Fishbone D is the first hollow encountered in the series and had his own page in the SOULs databook, which makes him notable enough to be included in a list. As I said before, there is no Wikipedia policy or guideline against including minor characters in lists, and for some series, there are articles specifically addressing minor characters (random example). The undiscussed removal of minor characters from such lists borders on vandalism, and should be given more thought than it is now. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 19:43, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The same reasoning that was given in the last discussion still applies. The entirety of Fishbone D's significance is covered in the caption of the image he appears in. ~SnapperTo 19:51, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Power

• Edorad is Arrancar 13.
• Ilfort is Arrancar 15, implying that Edorad is more powerful than Ilfort.
• Ikkaku with Bankai defeated Edorad with a released zanpakuto with the restriction.
• Renji with Bankai was being defeated by Ilfort without a released Zanpakuto and was not able to kill Ilfort until after the 20% power restriction was lifted.
• This implies that Ikkaku is at least 5 times more powerful than Renji.
• To me, this seems impossible. 68.196.242.88 (talk) 22:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, Renji is stronger than Ikkaku, but since Ikkaku is a 3rd seat, he doesn't have the restrictions put on him, which means he can fight at his full potential. Renji, being a Lieutenant, has the restriction, making him 5 times weaker than he normally is. Sasuke9031 (talk) 23:01, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Ahh, forgot about that. Thx. 68.196.242.88 (talk) 22:52, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

wait a minute. After Ikkaku's fight with Edorad, he flashes back to when he was offered the position of 5th company captain by Renji. Renji said "None of the other assistant captains can perform Bankai." Unless Renji was referring to himself, that implies that Ikkaku was promoted to 11th company assistant captain, amirite? 68.196.242.88 (talk) 23:05, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Nope. I think that Ikkaku or maybe Ichigo, not quite sure, going to have to watch that ep and get back to you, was trying to convince Renji to become a captain, in which case, Ikkaku was the one saying that Renji was the only Lieutenant capable of Bankai. Sasuke9031 (talk) 23:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

In the manga, it shows that it is clearly Renji asking the question to Ikkaku, and Ikkaku was declining. Now that i reread the format in the manga, it seems unlikely that Renji was referring to himself when he was talking about other assistant captains. 68.196.242.88 (talk) 16:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

What this probably means is that, Renji is reffering to all the other Assistant Captains being unable to preform Bankai, which is understandable, disregarding the majority of the 11th (They screw up the Power Ratings), No Third Seat has been said to be more powerful then the Assitant Captain of the same Division. What this means, is that Renji, knowing he was the only Assistant Captain able to use Bankai, and knowing Ikkaku could use Bankai, refered to Assistant Captains, Generally the second strongest of their division, to show that NO ONE else could preform Bankai thats not a Captain, excluding the Non-Shingamis such as Ichigo,Isshin,Urahara, and Yourichi. Also, Shawlong Koufang says that Number isn't power, just age, because Hitsuyga says that he is the 11th Most Powerful Arrancar, but Shawlong Koufang says he is just the oldest. Indeed, Ilfort was said to be surprisingly powerful, as Captain Level Renji said that he Probably wouldn't have been able to beat Ilfort even with the Limit Release, had Ilfort not been surprised, remember, Ilfort was able to hold of Hihho Zabimaru even AFTER Renji's Power had been lifted, the Baboon Cannon surprised him, but even that did very little Damage, it took 3 of them to kill him, and those blasts were pure Reitsu, no energy was wated just launching them, and one was at Point Blank Range. To me, it probably isn't that Ikkaku is Stronger then Renji, he just got a weaker opponent. We know that Ilfort's Younger brother was Szeyal, and he himself said he modified him with bactira to read his opponents, wouldn't it be possiable he also agumented his power aswell? 65.13.185.207 (talk) 14:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shawlong Koufang

Shouldn't we Mention Shawlong's Hollow form being so Human in apperance? Hollows appear more Human by how smart they are, and when we see Shawlong as a Hollow, he really is extremely huminoid, sure he is rather tall, and is purely bone, but at the same time, he has the same basic proportions as a human, something that none of the others, even Grimmjow, had at that point. This would explain his annalysis of Hitsuyga and his "Leadership" role during that assualt, as he was the smartest. It also proves, to me, that a Hollow doesn't have to be intellegant to be strong, Yammy is probably not as smart as Kougang, but is stronger.65.13.185.207 (talk) 14:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)