Talk:List of historic counties of Hungary

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[edit] Current issues

[edit] Hungarian city names

I am just wondering, since each county article is an article about Historic Hungary, shouldn't the names of the cities be listed in Hungarian first, and then the non-Hungarian in parenthesis. I noticed that the Hungarian name in parenthesis was happening even in places like Székelyudvarhely which still (21st century) has a population of about 97% Hungarian. My point is that since these are articles about Hungarian former counties, can I move the Hungarian names first?

Example:
Cristuru Secuiesc (Hungarian: Székelykeresztúr) ...
I would change to...
Székelykeresztúr (now in Romania: Cristuru Secuiesc)
...or something to that effect.

Of course, if this was the article on the current Romanian county, I would have no objections listing the Romanian name first, since it is within the borders of Romania, but we are talking about Hungary here. Would this be alright with everybody? I would be willing to make all the modifications. While I am at it, I would also add all of the capitals of districts within the county that were missing. Please respond. Thanks. --Hungarian83 17:19, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)

User:Hungarian83,
That would be a great idea! Thanks. --User:Hottentot

[edit] Template historic counties

User:Dagestan creates Wikipedia:WikiProject Historical Hungarian counties on 29 March 2004

The way the Hont page looks now, is how I would like all the historic Hungarian county pages to be. I think the template suggested on the wikiproject page is a bit too much, especially if there's not enough information to fill it (see Bihar (Hungary)). --User:Markussep

[edit] Diacritics

I see many pages for Hungarian and Slovak cities etc. have no or incomplete diacritics in their link and title. See for instance Hodmezovasarhely/Hódmezõvásárhely, Györ/Gyõr and Humenne/Humenné. I think we have no choice when it comes to the difficult, non- ISO-8859-1 letters like ž and ţ, but the í, é, ö, õ etc. are easy and ISO-8859-1, and they're usually pretty important for pronunciation. Is there a wiki strategy for this? And am I using the right letter for the double acute o, like in Gyõr? --User:Markussep

You aren't, I'm afraid. õ is Latin small letter o with a tilde, whereas Gjőr has ő, Latin small letter o with a double acute.
Because the English Wikipedia isn't coded in UTF-8, you can't reasonably use such characters in page titles (they can be created, but they won't be rendered properly). The common tactic is to strip off the diacritic marks from the titles, but use them in the article text. --Joy [shallot] 15:19, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Romanian county names

Does anyone object if I remove the Romanian names for the counties (Maramures, Treiscaune, Ciuc, Caras-Severin etc.) from the list? The Romanian names are mentioned in the county articles anyway, and we didn't do it for the Slovak and Croatian counties either. --User:Markussep

[edit] Hungarian or Slovak/Romanian/Croatian names

What to do with counties that currently have a non-Hungarian name on their page, like Tekov/Bars and Orava/Árva? I suggest to give the page the Hungarian name, and redirect from the Slovak/Romanian/Croatian equivalents.--User:Markussep

The problem is that (1), e.g. in Slovakia, the Slovak versions of the names are still used till today very often (and "Orawa" or "Spis", for example, is also frequently used in Poland till today) and were also very probably used before the arrival of the Hungarians, so it would be very strange if they would be under their Hungarian name,(2) the Hungarian names were only relevant for Non-Magyar territories from around 1850/1867 onwards (which is only a fraction of the 800 years of their existence!), until then the Latin names were used officially (in the 1780s and 1849-1867 also the German names) and the local population used the name versions in its own language (e.g. in Slovakia, except for southern parts, Slovak or German versions)
The situation depicted in the list of historical Hungarian counties existed between 1876 and 1918. Since the county pages (at least those of the Slovak counties) cover a larger period, I'm comfortable with using Slovak/Croatian names on the county pages, but I suggest to keep the Hungarian name on the list page. --User:Markussep
I wonder about the Hungarian names as well... AFAIR, the Magyar language policy didn't quite affect the Croatian lands all the time (in fact, when the Magyars decided to use Magyar in all official communication with the Croats in 1848, all hell broke loose), so I'm thinking that the counties of Croatia at the time must have had equivalent Latin or German or Croatian names as well as Magyar ones. --Joy [shallot]
Of course they had, it's up to you now to go to a library and find them...:-)

Juro 17:18, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)


[edit] Counties that still exist in Hungary

  • what to do with counties that still exist in Hungary (usually with modified territory)? I suggest one single page, with a clear structure (list of contents).--User:Markussep
Of course there should be an article County X, which should contain the history of the old county and then the history of the new one. But I think that most of the counties have been merged with others etc., so that you will have two articles.
OK.

[edit] Hungarian spelling

  • which Hungarian spelling do we use? Somewhere in time the "cz" was simplified to "c". I use "c", was that usual before 1914? I think we should be consequent.
Let's wait until a Hungarian reads this. But generally, the most recent is used in encyclopedias as a rule, i.e. "c" in this case.

[edit] Maps

  • I saw Joy added nice maps for the Croatian counties. Can someone do that for the other counties?
That would be nice indeed.

Markussep 15:37, 31 Aug 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Old issues

[edit] Changes by 163.175.162.3 (=Markussep)

It's not quite clear to me what all these changes accomplish... are those added names the names of the capital cities of the counties? What about the flurry of unexplained other changes? --Joy [shallot] 14:30, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I assume he is trying to list the capitals in the early 20th century. But he should add an explanation and a precise year at leasr. The problem is that the capitals were changing througout the history of the counties and usually they were no real "capitals", so that I do not see much sense in this... Juro 15:40, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)
The cities I listed last week and yesterday are the capital cities around 1910. I don't know when they became that, probably the big komitat reform of the 1860s, or long before. If you have more information, please add it (I saw you already did that for many counties in present Slovakia). I think it's also helpful for getting an idea of where the counties are. I saw there's a wikiproject on how articles on the historic counties of Hungary should be built up. Perhaps some other time... --User:Markussep
Unfortunately I only have a source giving the old capitals for the territory of Slovakia... Juro 17:27, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)
My main source of information is this page: http://lazarus.elte.hu/hun/maps/1910/vmlista.htm

I can't read Hungarian, but "vármegyei székhely" means "seat of the county". I think my next step (after finishing Transylvania) will be adding the Hungarian names of the capitals, and brief references to what happened to the county after the Trianon treaty. --User:Markussep

[edit] Hont county

But what happened to the county in Hungary after 1918 is missing.I do not have the information... --User:Juro

I found some things on a heraldry page: http://flagspot.net/flags/hu-pe-vm.html , and there are some more pages (99% of them in Hungarian) where you can find at least the names of the counties between WW I and WW II. Not all of them say the same thing, unfortunately. --User:Markussep

[edit] Baja

What is Baja ? The link redirects to Baja California. Bogdan | Talk 11:28, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Google search for "Baja Hungary" finds... Lat/Lon: 46.2° N 19.0° E [1], and the linked map says it's a city in the modern Bacs-Kiskun county, in the south of Hungary (near Mohacs and Szekszard). --Joy [shallot] 12:04, 9 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Good someone checks these links every now and then. I made it Baja (Hungary), and added everything I know about it, which isn't much. Markussep 12:31, 10 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I also fixed Baja to be a disambiguation page now. BTW thanks Markussep for noticing we had no list of cities in Hungary (!). --Joy [shallot]