Talk:List of gairaigo and wasei-eigo terms

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[edit] Article Deletion/Merge

We already have wasei-eigo and gairaigo ... do we need this article too? Not to mention the fact that many would consider the article title offensive. CES 13:12, 8 Apr 2005 (UTC)

There's a Japanese version of this page (see the alternate language links) which is quite big. So this could grow that big, if so, it'd not be a good idea to merge. (There are also Japanese versions of those two pages). 132.205.95.62 02:22, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- True (and I just noticed on the talk page of the Japanese version that they talk about whether to keep the page or not too!). I still wonder about the title though. CES 12:24, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Delete. The current title "List of Gairaigo and Wasei-eigo terms" is not offensive (not sure what the offensive version was), and the linked Japanese version is 日本語における外来語の事例集 or "list of gairaigo examples found in Japanese," which doesn't include wasei-eigo terms. See also: Wikipedia is not a dictionary. --69.214.232.105 01:50, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I've renamed the article and moved the lists from Gairaigo and Wasei-eigo here, and added pointers to prevent lists from starting up again on those pages. This article should remain just a list with minimal descriptive text. -- Paul Richter 09:39, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Two more

If memory serves, aren't "sarariman" (salaryman) and "bi-bi" (bye bye)? (Please forgive my undoubtedly incorrect Janglish spellings). -- John Fader (talk | contribs) 23:53, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

the first is correct, but the latter is "bai-bai" Mike H 12:25, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

almost. the "i" in salaryman is a long vowel, so it needs a macron or a circumflex over it. Please don't add to the main article if you're not sure about it. --69.214.232.105 22:30, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Removed

"Engai-ringu - Engagement ring" was removed because it is bullshit. Searches at Google Japan for "エンガイリング," "エンゲイリング," "エンガイリング," and "エンゲイリング" returned zero results each.--69.214.232.105 22:30, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I got three hits for エンゲリング Fg2 00:22, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)

I got about 5 hits for エンゲーリング, however that is hardly enough to qualify as a note-worthy term. Also, it should have been romanized properly (enge ringu, engē ringu) if the contributor wasn't bullshitting and knew what he was talking about. --69.214.232.105 01:31, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Proper wasei-eigo of 'engagement ring' is エンゲージリング 'engēji ringu' (engage ring). Googling エンゲージリング gives about 132,000 hits. --Kusunose 03:56, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Foreign Nipponized English?

I've heard that a number of famous/important sites in New York City have been "nipponized" by resident Japanese. Would those be relevant to this article, or is this only for terms originating from Japan? --Feitclub 01:32, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)

Are you talking about how the Japanese transcribe/pronounce names, due to their limited phonetic vocabulary, such as Central Park becoming something like "Sentoraru Paaku" and Burukkurin, Buronkusu, etc? (I don't know the exact transliteration here, I'm only guessing estimates...) If that's what you mean, I hardly think it qualifies, Native English-speakers would surely have trouble pronouncing Köln and Seine correctly, too.85.226.122.205 00:57, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

After more than two years, you may already know Karutie ja:カルティエ (Cartier, the jeweller) and Tiffanii ja:ティファニー (Tiffany & Co.). Place names include transliterations such as Burōdouei ja:ブロードウェイ (Broadway), translations: ja:五番街 (Fifth Avenue, Gobangai), and mixtures: ja:ウォールストリート (Wall Street, Uōrusutoriito, also ウォール街 Uōrugai). Gobangai is famous for Tiffany, Rokkuferaa Sentaa ja:ロックフェラー・センター, and Sakkusu Fifusu Abenyū ja:サックス・フィフス・アベニュー, as well as Central Park (as already mentioned), Myūjiamu mairu (Museum Mile) and various other sights. Fg2 11:09, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Addition: 'doctor-stop'

I would like to submit the term 'doctor-stop.' I Googled it and there are a couple of Japanese sites that feature it in the title (there's a TV series, a CD...) -- so I think it's legitimate. What it means is: when the doctor tells you to stop doing something. For instance, "I got a doctor-stop on drinking coffee."

Here's a good example: Nagashima-kantoku, munen no dokutaa sutoppu. A stroke prevented Shigeo Nagashima from coaching the Olympic baseball team. I encourage you to add it to the article. Fg2 21:27, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Addition: kosupure ("cos-play")

Derived from English "costume-play," kosupure (sp?) means a costume fetish, or wearing costumes during sex.

An especially interesting example, because "cos-play" seems to be now an English word derived from the Japanese, which in turn is of course from the English. I don't think the Japanese kosupree necessarily means fetishes or sex, although it can and often does; the English seems to have taken only those meanings. Fg2 05:54, July 17, 2005 (UTC)

The English borrowing certainly has not only taken those meanings: anyone who dresses up as a character for a fan convention is called a "cosplayer". Don't be fooled by how an Internet search for the term brings up a bunch of sex-related hits. As the song in Avenue Q says, "The Internet Is For Porn". — Gwalla | Talk 20:37, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Collation

What the hell is up with the collation of this list? It's wrong for japanese, and it's wrong for english. I added my entry where it seemed the current system wanted it to go, but really we should pick one option and fix the order of the whole list so it makes some sense. As this is en.wikip probably collating english style on the hepburn is the best option. --zippedmartin 10:59, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

The table makes it hard to work on the article. Also, it resulted from a merger of two earlier articles. Is there a better way to organize it than in a table? Fg2 12:41, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree that it's a pain, also makes the page impossible to read as well. Possible == splits == would be to separate out the wasei eigo terms (not very many, and possble where-to-draw the line issues), or listing along language-of-origin grounds (leaves a pretty long list for english still). Or just do headings by collation, either a/k/s/t/n/h/n/y/r/w or a/b/d/e/f/g/h... depending on what we're following. --zippedmartin 13:32, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

I finally reordered the list. The most objective way to do it, I figured, was to use standard Japanese, instead of the dog's breakfast we had going there. Sorry if there are any errors, but I think I checked it pretty well. Kcumming 15:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed removals

I would propose that gairaigo that are taken "as is" from English should be removed from this list. If you included such entries, the list could potentially have thousands of entries. We should limit it to the following:

wasei-eigo where words are borrowed directly but have different meanings (ex: manshon)
wasei-eigo where words are modified beyond recognition or are new constructions (ex: terebi, O.L.)
gairaigo from non-English languages (ex: tabako)
gairaigo with notable etymologies or subtleties (ex: garasu vs. gurasu)

Based on these criteria, I suggest that the following be deleted, since there's nothing particularly interesting about them.

ai rabu yū
on-za-rokku
dabingu
fōku (sure fork and folk can be mixed up, but that's not too significant)
fōchun kukkī
bura
beddo
mobairu

Also, I propose that this list be reordered in proper Japanese dictionary order...which it's pretty close to right now, but it's a little bit ambiguous in some cases, such as ka vs ga.

Hi, I think those are good classifications, very similar to the thinking that went into distinguishing this list from gairaigo and wasei-eigo. But in the case of those two articles, the concept was that they would be the expository articles that use only small numbers of examples to illustrate main points, and anything else goes here in the list. So I think this is the place for all the gairaigo (as usual, not considering old borrowings from Chinese and Korean to be gairaigo). I don't worry about lists growing long. Wikipedia's got the capacity. If eventually it needs to be split into groups of first letters (such as a-f, g-l etc.) or first kana (a-ko, sa-to etc.) then that's still ok. When you look at the phenomenal growth of Wikipedia over the last couple of years you realize how much energy is being devoted to creating new material. This list (these lists) could grow too.

But as lists grow longer, organization becomes more important, and that was your second point. I think I've put some of my contributions in alphabetical order, and some in a-i-u-e-o order. Which is to say, I'm confused about what's best. For the person who knows about the Japanese writing system and is trying to locate a word, the Japanese order makes good sense, whereas for the casual English reader or the person who has studied the use of foreign words in other languages and wants to see how it works in Japanese, a-b-c is the way to go. I'm curious as to your reasons for selecting Japanese dictionary order: was it because of the present state of the article, or do you feel it's best? Fg2 21:42, August 17, 2005 (UTC)

As for the first point, I believe that Wikipedia does have the capacity. However, I would say that additions like dabingu or bura make the list difficult and overly large for the reader. It makes it hard to find the more interesting entries, as they become lost in an overwhelmingly long list. If we split the list into categories like I suggested above, that would alleviate the issue.

As for the ordering issue, I believe that the Japanese ordering is best because it is unambiguous. If you use romanized order, you depend on a certain form of romanization, mixed with a standard English ordering, which seems irrelevant. Plus, it is a reference list. If somebody's browsing it, order doesn't really matter too much. If you want to find a certain word, then you can just use the browser's find function. The ordering, I would say, is more important for people adding content, so they know immediately if they're adding a duplicate.

I think the English Alphabet collation would be the best choice for the English Wikipedia. 85.226.122.205 00:59, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Portuguese/English

CES,

This is a selected list of gairaigo, words originating or based on foreign language (generally Western) terms, including wasei-eigo (pseudo-Anglicisms). Many derive from Portuguese, due to that country's early role in Japanese-Western interaction

I agree it was originally misleading--I should have done what you did in adding "but most come from English..."; nonetheless, English is mentioned in the first sentence as forming a major sub-component, the wasei-eigo. Thanks for helping out --Dpr 03:16, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] cf table (French)?

What is the purpose of "cf table(French)?" I don't think it's significant that the English word came from the French word...after all that applies to something like a third of the English language...

[edit] Some possibilities

Here are some words that could be added if they're not already there. I don't have a dictionary at hand to look up exact spellings or derivations. If you put any into the article, it might be worth deleting from this list, or striking out.

[edit] Automotive

~~handoru~~
furonto garasu
akuseru
beruto, shiito beruto
enjin
taiyaa
hoiiru
toransu
bureeki
saido bureeki
wan bokkusu
wagon, wagon-sha
torakku
kureen-sha (crane)
tanku rōrii
banpaa
uaipaa
mafuraa
bakku miraa
doaa, doaa rokku
takushii
oiru, oiru shokku
gasoriin, gasoriin sutando
doraibu

[edit] Medicine, therapy, health, hygiene

kuranku
noirōze
kataaru
ningen dokku <- I'd like to include this one, especially since the "dokku" is now used as a general suffix (ex: I've heard of 脳ドック now). However, I can't find any reference to indicate where "dokku" comes from. Kcumming 18:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- It's just the English word "dock" I think. Like a ship going in to drydock. Fg2 21:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
haburashi
puchiseikei —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fg2 (talk • contribs) 07:32, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
- petite cosmetic surgery Fg2 22:29, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Food, beverage, cooking, dining

shiroppu and gum syrup
rebaa
jagaimo, jaga (Jakarta)
chikin
katsu, katsuretsu
pōku
biifu, suteeki, biifu suteeki
hanbaagaa
hotto doggu
uinnaa
sōseeji
kyabetsu
usutaa sōsu
fuisshu
tsuna
sandoitchi, sando
mayoneezu
sōsu
doresshingu
bagetto
rōru, koppe pan
raisu
biiru
uisukii
wain
uokka
baabon
on za rokku
sutoreeto
kakuteeru
piinatsu, piinatsu bataa
kurakkaa
jūsu
orenji, orenji jūsu
remon
miruku
tii
remon tii, miruku tii, aisu tii
sukasshu, remon sukasshu
chokoreeto
banira
sutorōberii
painappuru
kokonatsu
kiuifurūtsu
gureepu
gureepufurūtsu
raimu
kokoa, hotto kokoa, aisu kokoa
chiramisu
nata de koko
mango
banana
hurūtsu
zerii
monburan
purin
sarada
retasu
tomato
onion
naifu
f(u)ōku
supūn
kimuchi
karubi
bibinba
sabure
bataa
kuriimu
maagarin
esunikku
piza or pitts(u)a
supagetti
pasuta
baikingu, dorinku baikingu, dorinku baa
kōhii, kapuchiino, ratte, esupuresso
furappe
shinamon

[edit] Electronics, software, IT, communications

rajio, rajikase
kasetto teepu rekōdaa
terebi
bideo
konpyūtaa
intaanetto, netto
nettowaaku
haado, sofuto, f(u)aamu
ii meeru
saito (Web site)
terehon, terehon kaado
kiibōdo
disuku doraibu
kiro, mega, giga
furoppii disuku
konpakuto furasshu
maikurodoraibu
mobairu

[edit] Clothing, accessories

shatsu, waishatsu
burūson
seetaa
surakksu
sukaato
doresu
jaketto
būtsu
baggu, handobaggu
beruto
nekutai
hankachi
suniikaa
sokkusu
pantsu, pansuto, pantii, panchira
nairon
shiruku
puretaporute
ōdaameedo

[edit] Plants and animals

kosumosu
panjii
raion
taigaa
kyatto
doggu
zebura

[edit] Music, drama, dance, art

myūjikku
piano
gitaa, ereki
doramu
baiorin
cherō
toranpetto
oboe
sakkusu
ōkesutora
echūdo
koncheruto
myūjikaru
ronguran (long run)
shinema
shiataa
opera
dorama
sutajio
raibu
baree
rizumu, rizumikaru
haamonii
kurashikku
jazu
modaan
warutsu
burūsu
obuje (objet [d'art])

[edit] Sports

supōtsu
beesubōru
futtobōru, amefuto
sakkaa
hokkee, aisu hokkee
basukettobōru, basuketto
bareebōru
gurando
sutajiamu
orinpikku (meaning "Olympics")
sukeeto, supiido sukeeto, f(u)igyaa sukeeto

[edit] Photography, optics

kamera
renzu
f(u)irumu
tere, waido, nōmaru, makuro
furasshu
kyabine (size of print)
ōto (auto)
manyuaru
nega
purinto
DPE (developing, printing, enlarging)
shattaa

[edit] Colors

burū
guriin
ierō
burakku
howaito

[edit] Miscellaneous

andaaguraundo, angura
doramu kan
pointo (railroad)
guriin-sha
f(u)ain (fine), fine play, nice shot
waido
nyūsu
gerira
jiguzagu
papa
mama
rupo, ruporaitaa
kanpa (from Russian)
sunakku (very different from English usage of "snack")

[edit] Plus alpha

What is the reason for saying that plus alpha is a misreading of plus x? Fg2 08:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

-> Response, this was basically copied from the Japanese Wikipedia (I've seen it in other sources too). I guess that if you write in cursive / italics especially, the characters α and x can look pretty similar. Kcumming 06:44, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

I see the resemblance but not the underlying reasoning. "Plus X" is the name of a black-and-white photographic film, but doesn't seem synonymous with the Japanese "plus alpha." Oh well... Thanks for the response. Fg2 08:31, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

In this case, "x" is the "x" that is often used as a sort of generic variable name. It's not so much the actual phrase "plus x" (which isn't really a common idiom itself) that was misinterpreted, but mostly just the variable itself. Kcumming 20:18, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Roadshow

Take a look at the definition given here: [1]. Ignore the bit where they say it's equivalent to "preview" in English; what they're describing is clearly a film's commercial premiere. And if you Google "テレビロードショー" or something similar, you'll find several uses that have nothing to do with theatres. --Lanius 15:15, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Wow, you're right. Thanks for the correction (as well as the URL of a good resource for this field: http://cinemakun.com/word/index.html)! Apologies all around for sticking a misleading definition into the list. Most of my contact with the word was through television, and my impression was that it referred to flicks that were making the rounds of the theaters; I see now that it is only certain, selected theaters—i.e., premiere showings, mainly in major cities. (And no, I don't usually shoot from the hip—I guess I just got ahead of myself on this one.) Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 16:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This page is crazy

There are thousands and thousands of gairaigo in Japanese. Most English words can and are sometimes borrowed in Japanese. Wikipedia is not a dictionary, but I think a listing of wasei-eigo/wasei-gairaigo is interesting enough to warrant an entry. What I propose is that this list is moved to the title "List of wasei-garaigo" (or possibly "wasei-eigo"), and remove all the gairaigo. Some of the entries now are just stupid, such as アイ・ラブ・ユー, sure, it's the way Japanese pronounce it but it is in no way a part of the Japanese language. Mackan 14:01, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I partially agree. See above (proposed removals). I think there's no point to having straight English loan words...there could be tens of thousands. Unless there's some real valid objection, I'm going to do some pruning some time soon. Kcumming 16:47, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "lucky"

I hear "lucky" a lot in Japanese. Should it be added? Danny Lilithborne 09:19, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I've been trying to promote a policy where no English loanwords are listed unless there's something significant about their etymology, phonology, or usage. I think that "lucky" kind of falls in a grey area. It is a direct loan from the English word. However, it does have a pretty idiomatic usage in Japanese (similar to the way that "chance") does. So I could be convinced, but it would be best if we described the particularities of the Japanese usage in the entry. Kcumming 04:29, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The list above at Talk:List of gairaigo and wasei-eigo terms#Some possibilities contains a lot of suggestions. If you feel like it, you might strike out any that you feel do not pass your criteria. Fg2 05:59, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New page for mistakes

I decided there should be a new list page for terms that are often mistaken for being gairaigo.

List of Japanese terms mistaken for gairaigo

Take a look and let me know what you think. --Kcumming 04:51, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Is neta often mistaken as gairaigo? Hadn't heard that one. Fg2

Well I don't know how commonly it is, but I have heard it mistaken as such, due to it often being written in katakana and its similarity to the word "net." --Kcumming 15:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Ah, "net" -- that makes a sensible mistake. Fg2 21:03, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Margarine

The entry for バター mentions margarine as well, but for the most part, margarine is　マーガリン (link is to Japanese wikipedia). Is there any specific instance where バター is mislabelled on margerine as currently described in the バター line of the article? Neier 23:04, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spanish words

I have seen that some gairaigo words are referring to Portuguese. However some are closer to Spanish than Portuguese, for example pan. Gairaigo:pan, Spanish:pan, English:bread

Don’t forget that Filipinas was a Spanish colony where Spanish was talk. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.97.233.91 (talk) 10:52, 23 March 2007 (UTC).

It doesn't really matter what they're closer to, it matters from what language they were borrowed. In the case of pan, the word is similar in all Romance Languages, coming from common roots in Latin. But it was the Portuguese who brought the concept of bread to the Japanese. --Kcumming 14:06, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On "anime"

This one is a common misunderstanding. Because it is often written "animé" people assume it must come from French (people assume the same about toire sometimes). Aside from the fact that my Japanese dictionary, which is listed as a reference at the bottom of the page, shows that it is an English loanword, there is the fact that it makes no sense to assume it comes from French. A quick check of a French dictionary (http://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/animation) shows that animation is pronounced such that the ma sounds like ma and not mé. Also, this word was probably borrowed in the mid 20th century, when increased American cultural influence meant that the majority of loan words came from English. --Kcumming 15:31, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the recent edit by Neoyamaneko, which contained a source for the assertion of anime being French. Some guy's university webpage about anime is not a reliable source for linguistics. Let's discuss the issue here before making any further edits to the page. --Kcumming 19:44, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

A further note: the following online Japanese dictionaries all indicate that the word is borrowed from English (it's standard in Japanese dictionaries to specifically state the language source of a loanword only if it is not from English). Look up アニメ and you will see it's short for アニメーション, which is said to come from "animation." Compare this with アベック, for example, which specifically states that it comes from French.

--Kcummin g 20:10, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Spot on on all counts. And paper dictionaries back up Kcuming. Particularly important, though, is that Wikipedia policy requires attribution to reliable sources. Best regards, Jim_Lockhart 03:38, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Orai

I'm not disputing the insertion of "orai", I was actually on the verge of doing so myself, but is it ever heard outside the context of a car or truck reversing with the driver's friend watching at the back calling it out? --DrHacky 07:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

The place I heard it, that caused me to include it, was in the phrase: shuppatsu shinko! hassha orai!, which I heard in a children's show, spoken by a character playing a train driver. I asked a native speaker about it, and it seemed to be pretty commonplace. Kcumming 15:53, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah, it's commonplace, I used to hear it in the street all the time. But your example is still in the context of "clear for vehicle to move", is it used with the full broader meaning of English 'all right'? --DrHacky 01:24, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

No, probably it is more limited in usage...but I didn't want to say that until I knew for sure how it was limited. Kcumming 15:06, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

I discussed it with someone, and that person came up with other usage examples beyond the vehicular ones. For example, 結果オーライ. My dictionary just says it means よろしい、よし、OK. I'll leave it like it is for now. Kcumming 16:21, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Orai is short form of all right or every thing right. begining of use Orai began to navigate car driver, and now use for any situatuin. OK is all right, among japanese. do you clarifi term origin, now Orai ? --Namazu-tron 02:32, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

So "orai" has a much broader usage now, that's interesting. Is it still worth mentioning the deviant usage for vehicles in Japan, which doesn't occur in English, as that's much of the point of a list of gairaigo- that they are often used differently to their word of origin. --DrHacky 04:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Kcumming 14:48, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

to: DrHacky

My explanation is somewhat over statement or exaggeration. the Orai usage is recommended in the situation that every thing is OK or no problem if counter part person is wondering about problem or obstacle to go, and if you find it OK, "Orai" is usable as immediate response or go-ahead sign. if you response with Orai in 1 minute later, it sound funny or not fit as smooth conversation. OK is much more useful for most situation, and most Japanese understand. Vehicle navigation with Orai is origin usage and still good use. Orai is not replaceable OK in all the time.--Namazu-tron 10:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] To Namazu-tron

Namazu-tron, thanks for your recent edits. It's good to have the perspective of a native speaker here. I made some changes to some of your edits. Much of it seemed to be etymological information, so I moved those instances to the origin column. Some other ones were redundant so I removed them. One of the others was difficult to understand. I'll post it here for clarification:

Traditionally half refer to mixed parentage as slang.

I'm not sure of the meaning of that. Could you elaborate?

Thanks again, I hope to see more from you. Kcumming 16:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe Namazu-tron meant that "half" traditionally means a person of mixed race. This puts the word "new" in the expression "new half" in context by defining the term without "new." Fg2 22:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi, thanks a lot for correcting my writing, to Kcumming and you all ( Texas dialect ?)with authentic English to be the Dictionary. Fg2, your understanding is half correct and half not correct.... I'm kidding.. Haha.., 50% OK and rest 50%is not. "a person of mixed race" in this context is refer to child born between U.S. GI ( sands for Government Issue ?) and Japanese girl after World War II and GHQ(General Head Quarter, Japanese call so.) had been stationed. Today, many foreign people seen in all over Japan, but right after War in 1945 to 1970s, not many of them. Such children, Japanese call them "half" with prejudice, meaning 50% American blood and 50% Japanese blood. "new half" is brand new type of "half" which is intermediate of male and female by wearing female costume and/or sexual changed from male to female, or vise versa. They entertain the guest in bar or Nightclub and such night joy places.--Namazu-tron 01:45, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification, Namazu-tron. Your sense of humor is enjoyable! Fg2 01:49, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion for Gairaigo, arigatō

Discussion for Gairaigo arigatō ( I write here than "discussion of Gairaigo", because discussion of Gairaigo is quite neet and no discussion at all), "arigatō": Comment for Gairaigo Misconceptions, the word arigatō. "arigato" is the variation of "Arigatai", and is separated to ari+gatai. Ari is to represents "in being" or "existing". gatai is be difficult or not easy thing. Originally it means "human being" is difficult in being in this world. There is a one Verse in Dhammapada. This is in context, "We, human being is to alive in this world is difficult or no easy, and although shall be die in some day, we are in being with life but each one's life exist in this world itself is difficult thing, rare happening or kind of miracle." Arigato is originally thanks (to God) on all of us, we are exist with life in this world now. The one of Buddhism's idea or philosophy. I am not sure that people use "arigato" know such origin. --Namazu-tron 11:30, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I really like how this page links to the Wiktionary article now. The explanation there is very detailed and interesting. Thanks for your insight. Kcumming 14:29, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Kcumming, thanks. correction: "neet" should read "neat".--Namazu-tron 15:49, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Butting

Very recent(3-5 years may be) popular gairaigo among Japanese, "バッティング""battengu" not listed here yet, is said from English word=Butting, meaning, competing in business, in with different opinion, in love with other person, such as dual or triple or more offers, bidding and etc as in such conditions. Is to understand this gairaigo derived from English word "butting" or "butt" acceptable ? I can not clearly find this meaning on word "butt" in my dictionary.--Namazu-tron 05:08, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Never heard it before, but it could be derived from "to butt heads with someone", which means to have some sort of disagreement or a clash of personalities. Otherwise it might be from "batting", maybe related to baseball? Do you have some usage in context? A link to an entry in a Japanese dictionary?--DrHacky 06:11, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

"To butt heads" was my first guess too. Animals also butt heads. I bet you're right. Fg2 06:52, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm pretty sure the English idiom is based on how bulls or moose fight, not on how people might headbutt. "Battingu" does seem to exist in baseball, as in "batting practice", according to my native speaker, but may not be related to this usage.--DrHacky 09:07, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

"バッティング""battengu is used for batting in baseball, and still used, sample and typical usage in Japan is Matsui, Matsui or Ichoro does good batting today, he is good batting player, some need more batting practice, and so on. By the way, though I'm now live in Tokyo area, my country is the same to Hideki, only 30 minutes drive. another "battengu" or butting become popular in any talks and publication on newspaper or weely magazine( mostly, not top grade publications) , but not used by NHK or eminent newspaper officially yet, I guess. But "battengu" is understandable word for most people. Example are: company A wants merge B, and also C wants too, in such competitive stage, "A and C are in butting, or doing battengu. supermarket A and C wants open and propose to community opening strategy, A and C are doing battengu or in battengu status/conditions. In early use of battengu is for such business terms. Then now used, even used to love competition, not many people though, but understandable in hearing. Even eminent commentator on TV does use word butting, "battengu" today. I believe battengu, derived batting and butting, different meaning and different English origin is eligible to list up on gairaigo here, and it might be a good guide for people to Japan from overseas or Gaijin here in Japan. Is anyone try to list up, then watch someone does comment, modify, or DELETE.--Namazu-tron 11:18, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

PS: Analogy is male bull or moose head-butting to get female, mostly on business and even acceptable usage on love affair in Japan today.--Namazu-tron 11:31, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] transmit or transmission

This is the talking Japanese originated words rather than gairaigo, but I would like to your help for definition. For these, transmit or transmission, Japanese has two words. "tensou 転送" literally refer to sending with roll out, apply to transmission between PC and peripheral equipment(s) without signal form change such as modulation, transmit anything in very proximity or short distance, or transfer mail, cargo, a thing with form or style as it is, or without change. Another word "densou　伝送" literally refer to send or relay with telling or talking/speaking, apply to transmit signal with modulation and this "densou" apply to communication technology area only. not use like to do "densou" the cargo. "tensou" the cargo is correct usage in Japanese. If engineer use "tensou" for telecommunication which send to far distance location, he is not expert in Japan, he should use "densou" instead. My question is, is there different word(s) to discriminate above two condition which Japanese does? --Namazu-tron 01:38, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mirra

How fluent is your wife at early 17th century Portuguese? The Portuguese missionaries introduced the word to Japanese around the start of the 17th century. An early quote can be found in the c. 1610 Christian text Baterenki (伴天連記^?): "みいらと云油を持て参、是は諸病ふせぐ薬なりとて、ぜすきりしとのかうべにぬりたる其まなびに". Bendono 00:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

In that quote it appears to mean a kind of oil, presumably used for the body of the dead. Maybe that will make it easier to identify the word in a historical Portuguese dictionary. In any case, Iwanami's Kokugo Jiten 3rd Edition 1985 p. 1048 confirms that miira comes from Portuguese mirra. Fg2 01:08, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is a kind of sap used in the mummification process. Compare it to the English word myrrh, and a number of other cognate words. For the actual mummy usage, an early quote is the 1631 Tashikihen (多識編^?):"木乃伊美知比登南蛮今云美伊良". 木乃伊 is the Chinese ateji (borrowed from Dutch mummie). 美知比登 is Man'yōgana for michihito which is the same as mitsujin (蜜人^?) meaning mummy. And at the end, it says "now known as miira" (美伊良, too, is Man'yōgana). Bendono 01:44, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Let me supplement this with a quick English rendition of the first quote: "Bringing an oil called miira, he says it is a medicine to block various diseases, and in imitation of how it was rubbed on Jesus Christ's head [...]". Bendono 02:09, 16 October 2007 (UTC)