Talk:List of foreign Premier League players

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	English football Portal The article on List of foreign Premier League players is supported by the WikiProject on Football, which is an attempt to improve the quality and coverage of Association football related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page; if you have any questions about the project or the article ratings below, please consult the FAQ.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.
	This article is supported by the England task force.

This article was nominated for deletion on August 7, 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Contents 1 Terry Dunfield 2 Non-English? 3 Orpheo Keizerweerd 4 George Ndah 5 Jordao 6 Foreign criteria 7 David Sommeil

[edit] Terry Dunfield

I added Terry Dunfield for Canada and someone took him off, why? Canuck85 08:31, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Did he play for any national team at any level? If not, he surely can be considered Canadian. --necronudist 08:46, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

edit: [1] Seems he played for Canadian U-20 squad. If he didn't played for any England national team he can be added. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Necronudist (talk • contribs) 08:47, August 21, 2007 (UTC).

I added him back in. Here's his profile over at the Canadian FA Website. ChrisG76 15:22, 20 January 2008

http://www.canadasoccer.com/eng/nationals/profile.asp?playerid=32&sub=3

I made some other minor adjustments. Bruno Assou-Ekotto has been moved from France to Cameroon. I have re-sorted the Dutch players so that those with 'van' 'ten' & 'de' prefixes are sorted alphabetically by the prefix, as you would in a Phone Book.

Pakistan also needs to be moved above Paraguay.

Not in a Dutch Phone Book. --necronudist (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Personally I've always found this sorting without "van" and "de" kind of inconvenient. 99% of people who visit English wikipedia do not follow the Dutch convention, and they're most likely going to look for those players under 'V' and 'D'. So I actually like this better. Chanheigeorge (talk) 23:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Non-English?

Certainly the list only includes players not from England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, so the introduction is currently not correct. Chanheigeorge 20:40, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You're right, I've tried a fix. --necronudist 21:44, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree because there's also a page about Scottish footballers abroad, including those who are playing in England. So, players who represent Scotland, Wales, Ireland & N.Ireland, can be listed here. Ario_ManUtd 00:29, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Rep. Of Ireland is foreign, N. Ireland isn't. Clyde1998 15:44, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

If you wanna add British or Irish player, do it. I won't, cause it would be an Herculean labour. I used that criteria just to avoid tracing thousands of British/Irish footballers. However I won't add'em and I won't update'em. --necronudist 17:07, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I've put my own lists together, using The Rothman's Football Annual (Now the Sky Sports Annual) from the inception of the Premier League since 1992/93. It makes for painful reading, in the context of the "too many foreign players" debate. Before tonight's matches kicked off, just over 1500 UK qulaified players have played in the Premier League, and over 1000 can be considered as foreign. More French players have played than Welsh & Northern Irish put together. There's some scope to make an article out of the lists at a more complete stage (End of the season, perhaps). ChrisG76 (talk) 21:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

While adding non-English players actually do not add that much to the list, the correct answer of why we shouldn't do this is: Scottish, Welsh and Irish players are not considered foreign players in English football. Chanheigeorge (talk) 22:42, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Orpheo Keizerweerd

I added him today. He was a Dutch striker who made a single substitute appearance for Oldham Athletic in the closing months of the 1992-93 season. ChrisG76 (talk) 09:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Good catch! --necronudist (talk) 10:41, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] George Ndah

I'm undecided as to whether he should be put in. He was called up by Nigeria in 1999, but never actually played for the Super Eagles. What do we reckon? ChrisG76 (talk) 09:43, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

For me, he's 100% English. --necronudist (talk) 10:40, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

You see, I'm not sure where to draw the line on this. We have players with Dual Nationality listed under the senior squad they were eventually called up to (Djimi Traore, Freddie Kanoute, Tim Cahill et al), and a whole plethora of English-Nigerians who eventually represented Nigeria. Ndah was called up, but was unable to compete because of injury, so I guess it will be as contentious as half the decisions made by the Dubious Goals Committee! Personally, I'd put him in, with an asterisk and a footnote, and perhaps try to cover all the players on the list who have represented other nationalities at youth level? ChrisG76 (talk) 16:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

He has never played a game with Nigeria, injured or not, and he was born in England. So he's English. We need to apply criteria based on facts, not guesses. --necronudist (talk) 18:00, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I guess that depends on where we draw the line. I would lean towards no, since he's most commonly regarded as English in the media. And merely being called up by other national teams does not prevent somebody from representing England in the future, so he's still very much English in FIFA's eyes. But then that would also disqualify Nyron Nosworthy, who hasn't actually played for Jamaica yet, and also Benoît Assou-Ekotto should be French instead of Cameroonian since he hasn't played for Cameroon either. But then we also have Sean Dundee as German, even though he didn't play for German, but then it'd be awkward to put him as South African since he flat out pursued German citizenship (without any parental ties?) in order to represent Germany. Chanheigeorge (talk) 22:07, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not trying to make a wild swing in the dark with a guess - just putting the idea out there. The point in case is he got the call up, he accepted it, and if selected in the starting line-up, would presumably have played fro Nigeria. As I stated with the Kanoute example - a French player, who had represented them at U21 level. If he had been selected by Mali, and pulled out of the squad, he'd still be French. We have numerous players that are sensibly listed on this list who were born in other countries, yet have not represented the nation they are listed under. That's why I hung the asterisk / footnote suggestion out there. ChrisG76 (talk) 16:59, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't particularly like asterisks or footnotes. It's trouble enough to decide on one set of criteria. Now we have to decide on two sets of criteria: who is a "true" foreign player, and who is a "marginal" foreign player. Chanheigeorge (talk) 22:40, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jordao

I'm thinking whether we should put Jordao, the West Brom player, as Angolan or Portuguese. Here's some information I gather:

• He's born in Angola in 1971, when Angola was still part of the Portuguese empire (they achieved independence in 1975).
• He spent almost all of his career playing in Portugal. Does not appear to have played for any Angolan clubs. [2]
• Does not appear to have represented either Angola or Portugal on any levels.
• Stated much more commonly as Portuguese in the media (for example, [3]). Also stated as Portuguese in this old Wikipedia page ([4]). But did get stated as Angolan in a few reports (for example, [5]).

He appears a similar case to many Dutch footballers born in Suriname, such as Fabian de Freitas, Ken Monkou, Clyde Wijnhard and Fabian Wilnis, who are commonly regarded as Dutch. Any thoughts? Chanheigeorge (talk) 23:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Just another of numerous instances designed to give you a headache! I'll say one thing about Soccerbase, though - they've got the listed nationalities for numerous players incorrect. It seems not to take 100% accuracy all that important - something this page has the chance to do by covering all the bases. That's why this sort of debate is so important IMHO ChrisG76 (talk) 17:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I tell you all again: it's impossible to cover every particular case. We need two or three criteria (not a hundred thousand) that will make the list not perfect but complete. I created (and I'm mantaining) La Liga and Serie A lists and there's no problem. Criteria make some controversies (e.g. Margiotta played 8 matches with Italy at youth level and played for Venezuela at A level, but he's not in the list) but draw a deep line between what's admitted and what is not. If you're going to cover every case...good luck. --necronudist (talk) 17:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it's quite difficult to assign just ONE nationality to a player in many cases. For him, and Sean Dundee, I think I'll put them as Portuguese and German respectively, mainly because without the "new" citizenship, they have zero chance of playing in the EPL given the work permit requirements. Compared him to Manucho, who is truly Angolan, and needs a work permit in order to sign for Man Utd. Chanheigeorge (talk) 19:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Foreign criteria

In light of the recent discussions, I will use the following clear-cut criteria for whether a player is considered foreign or not:

A player is considered foreign if he is not eligible to play for the national teams of England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland or the Republic of Ireland.

This is actually a good summary of the current criteria, with the following implications:

• If a player is capped by a foreign national team, he is considered foreign since he's no longer eligible (unless FIFA grants him a change of nationality later). However, if a player is merely called up, this has no effect as eligibility is not changed.
• If a player has British/Irish parents, or move to UK/Ireland at a young age and obtain citizenship, he is considered domestic due to the eligibility.
• If a player obtains British/Irish citizenship for the purpose of playing for the national teams of England etc. (say Manuel Almunia in the future), he is considered domestic as soon as he obtains the citizenship, regardless of whether he is eventually capped or not. This also applies if FIFA grants him a change of nationality.

Of course, the above criteria will be applied within reasonable context. For example, if a foreign player decides to stay at UK after retirement and obtain British citizenship, we're not going to consider him a domestic player. Chanheigeorge (talk) 23:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Here are some of the "marginal" cases that I'll exclude from this list:

• George Ndah (Nigeria) – As discussed above.
• Nyron Nosworthy (Jamaica) – He hasn't won a cap yet, but that may change in the future.
• Victor Anichebe (Nigeria) – Nigerian born, but raised in UK so he is eligible to play for England, as he hasn't won a cap on any level yet, but that may change in the future.
• Bruce Dyer (Montserrat) – He played an unofficial match against a league side, so that doesn't count, but that may change in the future.
• Delroy Facey (Grenada) – His page suggest he's Grenada international. I've done a Google search, which says that Grenada intended to call him up in 2004 for the WCQ against USA, but eventually he's never in the squad and of course didn't play. [6] There's no evidence I found that suggests he's actually been capped by Grenada. This section in Wikipedia (Gillingham_F.C.#International players) also implies that he's never won a cap. So he's not included, but that may change in the future.
• Emmanuel Omoyinmi (Nigeria) – He represented England at the schoolboys level. [7] While this is technically not FIFA-regulated, this implies he has some sort of UK citizenship, and his career arc also seems to imply that.

Please feel free to add more players here. Chanheigeorge (talk) 23:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

I've also removed Kazenga LuaLua and Kelvin Etuhu, since they both grew up in England. Chanheigeorge (talk) 01:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Two more: Matty Pattison and Jemal Johnson. Chanheigeorge (talk) 02:38, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I think they're good criteria. --necronudist (talk) 09:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Looking pretty robust to me. Good stuff. ChrisG76 (talk) 21:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] David Sommeil

Has played full international football for Guadeloupe. There are a considerable number of International match reports around the net to support this. ChrisG76 (talk) 17:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I know, and if I remember well I originally put him under Guadeloupe. --necronudist (talk) 18:08, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

How was I supposed to know that, other than sit here and tip through every last edit made to the article? You have a rotten attitude toward people, Necronudist. You've shot me down brusquely a few times here, and some of your comments to individuals in the Serie A & La Liga discussions leaves much to be desired. Sort yourself out, it's a Wikipedia article - not politics. ChrisG76 (talk) 18:53, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Cool down. I don't know what arguments you've gotten into at other pages, but be more civil. Anyway, I was the one who moved him back to France, because my opinion is that Guadeloupe isn't really a country, and their national team is not a FIFA-member. For example, Jocelyn Angloma has played for both France and Guadeloupe without the need of FIFA approval. Chanheigeorge (talk) 19:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it was a good move Chanheigeorge. It was my fault, indeed. Guadeloupe isn't a country and its national team isn't a FIFA-member (althought it's a CONCACAF one). --necronudist (talk) 19:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)