Talk:List of female metal singers

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[edit] Lots of red links

There seem to be an awful lot of red links in this list article. The usual way of maintaining these lists is to give an addition criteria that the singer/musician should have his/her own article, anything else is deleted. Likewise if an associated band name has a red link then that is also deleted. I suggest that this should be the case in this article too.

The criteria is normally displayed by having a heading that states that this is a list of notable female heavy metal singers. Then having a hidden comment under every alphabetical heading tag stating <!-- Only add names here if the person has their own article - anything else will be removed -->. This makes it very clear for when deletions are necessary. It's child's play to maintain too. --WebHamster 01:12, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

If you google the names you'll find that each is notable under the music nobability in Wikipedia. If its maintainance you're worried about, I think you should know that I've been scruplously monitoring and maintaining the list. I just don't see why the redlinks should be deleted simply because there isn't an article on each one. Asarelah (talk) 01:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm just pointing out that this is the usual manner of maintaining these type of lists. A red link is useless from a WP standpoint. The chances are that if the were indeed notable to WP standards then they would already have an article. There seems to be more red links than blue ones. The whole point of a list like this is that people don't have to go to Google to find it out. Likewise if the link is blue then there's no argument that the person is notable. Who's to say a red link isn't some teenager adding their name for membership in a 5 minute old garage band? There must be some verifiable way of including people per WP guidelines. You can't have a linked name that you have to go off to Google to see if it is indeed notable. Remember lists have to comply with WP rules as much as any other article. As has been demonstrated today, one person's "notable" may be different from another's. There has to be some way of preventing that. A blue link does that. A red link doesn't. --WebHamster 01:50, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
If you insist, then I'll start creating stubs for these bands and these singers. Sound good? Asarelah (talk) 02:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I think you get me wrong, I'm not insisting on anything. I maintain at least 6 or 7 of these type of lists and my comments were based on the experiences I've gained from doing so. I have no intention of coming in here and deleting anything if that was what was concerning you. If you wish to create stubs then please do so, but please only do so if you want to, not because you may think you've been forced into it. It's no mean feat to do what you suggest given that it's not just a question of creating the stub, you'll also have to demonstrate notability so as to avoid CSD nominations. I still think the optimum way is to delete the red links. Though al alternate method that is used on a few of the lists is to have a section on the talk page with all the red links (plus add any newly created ones), then when they turn blue it is added to the main list. The thing to remember though is that any entry on any list article has to be verifiably notable either by a citation or by having its own article. At the moment this list does not comply with that. --WebHamster 02:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
The Wikipedia guidelines under [[Wikipedia:Notability (music) state that:

"Failing to satisfy the notability guidelines is not a criterion for speedy deletion. However, an article that fails to assert that the subject of the article is important or significant can be speedily deleted under criterion A7. A mere claim of significance, even if contested, may avoid speedy deletion under A7, requiring a full proposed deletion or Article for Deletion process to determine if the article should be included in Wikipedia." Therefore, CSD would not a problem with the stubs. Asarelah (talk) 21:23, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

My apologies, the words I chose appear to have mixed up two different assertions I made. I actually meant "assert" as opposed to "demonstrate". The last bit where I mentioned verifiability was relative to inclusion on the list rather than being a candidate for CSD. Sorry if I confused you. --WebHamster 22:01, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brenda Jezabel Cuesta

Its seems some people(person) are upset about Brenda Jezabel Cuesta being on this page. The only thing I have to say about this that she is a female heavy metal singer, that she dose meet the notabilaty notability requirement and if your basing this on a google search well then here [[1]], yes there are pages that aren't in eglish, but its a foreign and also, if she dose not meet the notablity requirement then just about half the page dose not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Angli Cado Primoris (talk • contribs) 13:05, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

There are only three pages worth of results under the exact name "Brenda Jezabel Cuesta". All the rest have only the names "Brenda" "Jezabel", or "Cuesta" and have nothing to do with the singer. The only criteria under the Wikipedia:Notability (music) criteria that she could possibly meet is #1, which is:

"It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable.[1] This criterion includes published works in all forms, such as newspaper articles, books, magazine articles, and television documentaries[2] except for the following: Media reprints of press releases, other publications where the musician/ensemble talks about themselves, and advertising for the musician/ensemble. Works comprising merely trivial coverage, such as newspaper articles that simply report performance dates or the publications of contact and booking details in directories. An article in a school or university newspaper (or similar) would generally be considered trivial but should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis."

I do not speak the languages that these sources are written in, but they appear to be little more than simple blurbs in e-zines. I'm sorry to dissapoint you, but it appears that she simply not notable enough for the list. Asarelah (talk) 21:17, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Point me to the references and I will check them out. And I suggest stop adding the name until the discussion is finished (because of Burden of evidence: The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. In other words, anyone is free to remove a name, but in order to add it again, there must be a reliable source to verify the information. It is not "Let's add it and then discuss." -- ReyBrujo (talk) 23:29, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Necessary?

Is the use of "formerly of...", "currently" etc in a lot of the entries necessary? This is the first list I've seen that uses them. Surely the fact they were in the band at some point is enough for the list? Further details can be had from the article that is linked. --WebHamster 22:01, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No Red Links Please ...

Quoted from WP:SAL:

  • "Ideally each entry on a list should have its own Wikipedia article but this is not required if it is reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in the future."
  • "Selected lists of people should be selected for importance/notability in that category and should have Wikipedia articles (or the reasonable expectation of an article in the future)."

I changed the lead in from a list of notable female singers whose performances are in the heavy metal genre to a list of female heavy metal singers with articles on Wikipedia. In the first place, the notability requirement has been very ineffective with a number of red links for fairly obscure singers or bands. All the female singers that Dol Ammad used for their choir was included, for instance. Even if we removed all the red links, the question of notability is still rather subjective. I don't think Amy Dumas or Jada Pinkett Smith are notable heavy metal singers. That's just ridiculous. One's known as a wrestler and the other's known as an actress. Neither are particularly well known or well regarded as heavy metal singers. Personally, I was under the impression that Amy Dumas leads a punk rock band not a heavy metal band. Whatever. The point is that notability is a fairly unreliable way of limiting this list. For that reason, I changed the lead in and hence criteria of this list. This is also the format of other lists on wikipedia, including the List of heavy metal guitarists and the various lists of bands playing a particular genre. --Bardin (talk) 08:14, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

You quoted it already: "reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in the future" - As far as I know, the word "notable" means: "Don't include every female metal singer." It does not mean, that only singers with wiki articles are notable. Hybscher (talk) 20:29, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Having an article IS a measure of notability from a WP standpoint, how can a name with red link demonstrate/assert if they are notable or not? Not everyone reading this article/list is a specialist. A red link does not signify anything other than a name. For all anyone knows the singer is holding the an upside-down tennis bat in front of their bedroom mirror, ie they are not verifiably notable. As you know verifiability is the mainstay of WP. WP is not a directory and most link article do not have the number of red-links this page has. Incidentally, I support Bardin in this. As can be seen by the comment at the top of this page, this isn't the first time this has come up. --WebHamster 23:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Reasonable to expect an article could be forthcoming in the future? Those red links have been on the list for months. Many months. Some of them have been there since the article was created over a year ago. I do not think a year long wait indicates that it is reasonable to expect an article to be forthcoming in the future. I don't see what kind of article can be made for the many members of the choir performing in Dol Ammad. Or the many other names from obscure bands. If they do not have an article, it's probably because there's not enough information for one. It's probably because individual articles of these non-notable singers would be speedily deleted. This is not a directory for metal bands with female singers. This is a list for female metal singers and there's no reason to have an entry for any female metal singer who does not have an article on wikipedia and is unlikely to ever have one. If you really want your favourite singer to be on the list, then do the hard work and create an article for them with references and citations establishing notability. Do not take the easy way out and simply revert this list. --Bardin (talk) 01:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)