Talk:List of countries by highest point

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I really dont think China has any claims whatsoever over Mt.Everest—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 59.144.19.196 (talk • contribs) 13:23, 24 September 2005 .

While you're entitled to that POV, please see the discussion in Tibet (and on that article's Talk page) before making related edits to this article. Current consensus is that Tibet is "controlled" by China and does not exist as an autonomous entity; therefore, it can't claim Everest. China, as controller of the region called "Tibet", can.--chris.lawson 17:46, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Is there a page for countries by lowest point? Andjam 00:40, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Major Errors in CIA list

The CIA misinformation list on which this list is based should be buried so deep that nobody would even think about bothering to retrieve it. Ditto this list. I hate improperly researched misinformation as much as I hate spam. Viewfinder 01:48, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Uh, what? Can you specifically point out any demonstrably false entries on this list?--chris.lawson 02:36, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes - see the link I have provided. I have corrected the errors that I am sure about but there may be many more. Viewfinder 02:51, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The link you have provided does not, in itself, meet Wikipedia standards of verifiability nor does it meet the standard of a reliable source. Please cite specific reliable and verifiable sources here on Talk for each of the data points you wish to change. I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just saying that we have a high standard of accountability and I, for one, intend to see that followed.
Also, please do not re-insert your rant about the CIA World Factbook into the lead paragraph. It is not encyclopedic and does not belong in the article.--chris.lawson 03:03, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

If you had actually bothered to read the link that I supplied you would see that the documentary evidence pointed to in that link does meet the required standards. Most of the evidence can also be found by clicking on the names of the individual summits and I an not going to copy it all out again here. I can also substantiate the majority of my changes using SRTM data from NASA which has been proved to be reliable.

You say you have a high standard of accountability but that's rich when you permit the publication of elevations like 5,030m for Mount Carstenz which has long since been discredited by the respected Seven Summits movement. Most of the elevations I have given appear on loads of other Wikipedia pages where they have not been challenged.

If you wish to dispute any individual case then I will discuss it in more detail. But meanwhile if there are any more reversals from you Lawson I will start formal dispute proceeding without delay.

It's here in the CIA document..... must be the truth (to paraphrase Tom Robinson..) Viewfinder 09:50, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

One more question for you Lawson. Do you intend to tear down this Wikipedia document on the grounds that some of the elevations given do not meet the verifiability standards? And the Seven Summits document which gives a 4,884m elevation for Mount Carstenz, contrary to the CIA? And every other document that is not regurgitated CIA c***?Viewfinder 10:16, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I intend to tear down every single Wikipedia article brought to my attention that lacks verifiable and reliable sources for its claims. As I'm only one person, this is obviously a huge task. Please feel free to help me by providing citations and editing any articles you can find to reflect the proper elevation data. Please do not, however, cite your own personal Web site as a "reliable source." Cite the primary sources used on your site instead.--chris.lawson 16:52, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

OK Chris. Yes you can count on my help and I'll take more trouble to document the primary sources. It's just that when I saw all those archaic elevations (heaven knows why the CIA can't get round to updating them) it got to me. I'm sure you know the feeling. I never meant to claim my that website is in itself a reliable source, the claims are about the sources pointed to in that site. I hope nobody will dispute that SRTM data is accurate, reliable and verifiable. For much of the world there is no other reliable topographic source data. I have been working with it right from its arrival, I know it really well. The prominence pages have been or are being linked to the appropriate elevation sources. Viewfinder 22:28, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Summary of changes:

  • HP Bhutan, no Bhutanese survey, see various links to Japanese Alpine Club documentation here re Chinese survey.
  • HP Mexico (survey by professional) see summit link in main article
  • HP Iran see summit link in main article, SRTM disproves 5671m
  • HP Russia see Seven Summits
  • HP Turkey see summit link in main article, SRTM disproves 5165m
  • HP Indonesia see Seven Summits
  • HP Ethiopia professional survey, see summit link
  • HP Venezuela official, see here
  • HP Yemen SRTM disproves higher elevation
  • HP's Chad, Liberia, Somalia SRTM disproves lower elevations
  • HP Dominican Republic professional and amateur surveys consistent with SRTM, see summit link
  • HP Brazil official, see here
  • HP Saudi Arabia SRTM disproves higher elevation
  • HP Guyana Various elevations given, no accurate survey
  • HP Solomon Islands SRTM, more accurate IFSAR data and official mapping disprove higher elevation and expose incorrect location
  • HP Gabon SRTM exposes totally crazy location and elevation
  • HP Bangladesh SRTM also exposes totally crazy location and elevation.
  • HP Kazakhstan: see summit link
  • HP Burundi SRTM and Russian 500k mapping both show higher summit than Mont Heha
  • HP Botswana SRTM shows that Tsodilo is no more than 1400m, there are several competing high points, all over 1470m, in the Gaborone area
  • HP Republic of Congo, SRTM shows that Mont Nabeba, 1,020 m at 1°50′39″N, 13°59′27″E, is higher than Mont Berongou.
  • HP Kosovo: SRTM data and other sources contradict CIA elevation.

CIA list also has Victoria Peak as the highest peak of Belize, while numerous sources (incl. Belizean govt. (http://www.belize.gov.bz/belize/welcome.shtml) and Wikipedia in Geography_of_Belize have Doyle's Delight as the highest peak - at 1124m (Victoria is quoted to have 1120 m). I have thus altered the list accordingly. naapi 09 Sep 2006

[edit] Monte Bianco?

According to the article Mont Blanc, the Italian-French border officially goes over the summit, with only some French maps indicating otherwise. Does this mean that both France and Italy should be credited equally with Mont Blanc / Monte Bianco on this list? --Stemonitis 16:05, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

--- The summit of Mont Blanc is wholly in France and I am not aware of any dispute about this. Perhaps the other article should be changed. Viewfinder 22:02, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Reading the article Mont Blanc (in any of the few languages I understand) indicates that there is indeed a dispute between France and Italy. Since listing Italy's highest peak as either Mont Blanc or Mont Blanc de Courmayeur would be adopting a particular point of view, I have chosen to include both. --Stemonitis 12:43, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Precision Elevations

I have restored the elevation of Everest to 8,848m, and unless I am persuaded otherwise, I will restore the elevation in the Mount Everest article too. There have been several recent surveys of Everest and K2 claiming precision to less than a meter, some giving higher figures than the traditional 8,848m and 8,611m, others giving lower figures, and the spread of these exceeds their claimed accuracy. They should therefore be regarded as publicity seeking and should be ignored. In reality, the Himalayan geoid has not been determined with sufficient accuracy to allow such precision. A further point with regard to the recent Chinese survey: according to the Mount Everest page, the geologic height was measured, not the height including perennial snow and ice cover. The logical extenstion of this would demand that the elevation of Mont Blanc (which varies seasonally) be lowered by 10-20m, Khan Tangiri Shyngy to 6,995m and the South Pole to around or below sea level. Until several independent measurements show a consistent error margin, the elevations of Mount Everest and K2 should stand at 8,848m and 8,611m, and confusing alternatives should be rejected.

[edit] Serbia and Montenegro

The two nations are still listed together. Does anyone have highest points for the two separately? Warofdreams talk 01:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Djeravica (2656 m) is in Kosovo which is still nominally part of Serbia and must continue to be regarded as such for the purposes of this page. I have added the official Montenegro HP and height, but Russian 50k mapping states that it is 2520.9 m compared with 2521.8 m for Maja e Roshit, on the Montenegro-Albania border, and in any case the difference is likely to be within the survey error margin. So the question seems to me to remain open. Btw does anyone know if the re-ranking can be automated, or is it necessary to manually increment the subsequent ranks individually? Viewfinder 05:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for this. Although I don't know of one, a pretty simple program could be written to increment the ranks - I wonder if anyone has created a bot which would do it? Warofdreams talk 18:24, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mount Hermon

I have reverted the edits by Amoruso which I regard as POV, see the map at Golan Heights. Amoruso and I could only agree to disagree. But comments from regular, neutral contributors about how this issue should be handled would be appreciated. Some sort of footnote may be appropriate. Viewfinder 16:12, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I changed it though to what I see is more factual. Mount Hermon is IN israel. Some maps show the golan to be inside israel proper - see the national geographic ones. Amoruso 03:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

The vast majority of maps show the Golan Heights to be OUTSIDE Israel. Viewfinder 04:13, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so. There are all sorts of maps. National Geographic seems pretty unbiased to me. And the way people decide to draw maps and historical armistice lines doesn't seem the appropriate criteria. There is one map that means more and that's the actual physical presence - I think maps are only help tools. Amoruso 04:15, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] K2

There is no official international view on the matter of whether the south and west sides of K2 belong to Pakistan or India. International mapping and the international community are neutral on the subject. Maps shows no formal India-Pakistan border, only a line of control. K2 is on the Pakistani side of this line, and is therefore considered to be in Pakistan for the purposes of this article.

I should note that the area on the north and east of K2, traditionally part of Jammu and Kashmir, was ceded to China by Pakistan in 1963.[1] India doesn't recognise this. So technically, K2 lies entirely within India according to Indian maps. Most UN maps show all of Jammu and Kashmir as a disputed area. Someone needs to footnote this properly. Hornplease 07:17, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] HP of Australia

Contrary to what we are stating in this article, Australia states that the Southern Ocean islands, and hence Mawson Peak, are as much included within Australia as Tasmania is, and the Canary Islands and Pico de Teide are within Spain. I therefore propose to change Australia's HP. Any cooments or objections? Viewfinder 08:16, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Support: for great consistency! Comment: it's a little odd to have entries which are not generally considered to be in the country proper. Suggestion: put in an unranked entry for "Australia (mainland)" and ditto for "Spain (mainland)". –EdC 10:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wales

Contributed by 194.83.16.10 and transferred from main article: OK what idiot deleted Wales from here. More of a country than the Isle of Man. (Wales 40 times the size,40 times the population,600,000+ Welsh speakers, Its own International football and rugby teams (Isle of Man has none). I rest my case. As for San Marino.

It has become the established practice in the artcle to list only sovereign countries and wholly self administering overseas territories. Wales is neither. Nor is England which is also not listed. By contrast, the Isle of Man, despite being ultimately subject to the UK, is wholly self administering, fiscally independent and is not represented in the UK parliament. San Marino, despite its small size, is a sovereign country. Viewfinder 13:05, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

194.83.16.10, please note WP:CIV and WP:NPA and refrain from directing the term "idiot" at other editors. Viewfinder 13:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Saint-Barthélemy and Saint-Martin

These two islands both were appointed overseas collectivity of France in 2007, and should therefore along with other territories with this status (f.ex French Polynesia and Mayotte) be a part of this list.Antipoeten 13:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mount Everest

I reverted two edits by User:Tenzin norbu because, whether or not we at Wikipedia think it ought to be, Tibet is internationally recognised to be part of China, and the name "Mount Everest" has become accepted at the principal name on English Wikipedia. Various other names are discussed at Mount Everest. Viewfinder 20:55, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relative height

Do you reckon a relative height column would be appropriate in this article? Mark J 18:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, somehow this suggestion had escaped my notice. Often relative heights are available via the linked mountain pages. Where they are not, you might like to add them to the mountain pages. Viewfinder 21:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Elevations in ft also

I was wondering why this article on listed elevations in meters when articles like List of U.S. states by elevation and List of highest points of Canadian provinces and territories list both meter and feet? I will volunteer to add the column. Rocketmaniac 14:09, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Mild oppose. The main problem is that some of the heights are the subject of uncertainty. When new information becomes available, it becomes tiresome to have to get out the calculator during each update. As with relative height, heights in feet are on the individaul mountain pages. The use of "convert" template may be a solution. Viewfinder 21:11, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kosovo and Serbia

Kosovo is still only listed at List of countries as a self declared independent country, and is therefore not listed here. But should Kosovo receive widespread recognition, should we list it here? If so, where is Serbia's undisputed highest point? I thought it was somewhere on the Kosovo-Sandžak border, but I cannot find anything there that is higher than Midžor, on the border with Bulgaria. Or havr I missed something? Viewfinder (talk) 20:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

The compromise situation that I created seemed to be sticking, but was challenged by an unregistered editor citing Taiwan. I do not accept the comparison with Taiwan. Almost all countries recognise Taiwan de facto, they only do not recognise Taiwan formally because they see the need for normal relations with the PRC. The same cannot be said of those countries that do not recognise Kosovo. Perhaps there is room for improvement, but I do not think that we should be giving less weight to 2656m HP for Serbia. Remember that Kosovo does not have a UN seat, and please debate the issue here before editing the main article. Viewfinder (talk) 20:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Kosovo has de facto independence, clearly: they are not controlled or militarized by forces unfriendly to their independence. They have formal international relations with more countries, and more 'important' countries, than Taiwan. Taiwan 'also' does not have a UN seat.
But most importantly, how are we treating Kosovo elsewhere on Wikipedia? With the same status as Taiwan, or Palestine, or Western Sahara: as a separate country. We do not credit Israel with the land area in the West Bank. We do not credit Morocco with the coastline of Western Sahara. We do not credit China with the GDP of Taiwan. So why should we give the mountain of Kosovo to Serbia? Please apply a consistent standard, and by that, I mean a standard consistent with the rest of Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.188.247.6 (talk • contribs)

OK, guys... I can see in the page history, that you have different POV on this topic, and generally on the topic of what entities should be included into this list (sovereign countries, self-administering territories, overseas dependencies, partially recognized countries, etc.). I am afraid that the continuous reverting and re-reverting is not the solution. This only could cause a (temporary) protection of the page, as I could see it on other pages regarding Kosovo. Please, find other solution! First of all - discuss the topic here on the discussion page, and make the corrections on the page just after getting to a common denominator. However, I can suggest something what might be a possible solution and I hope it would also be a NPOV. I suggest that the list should be separated. The "main" list would contain only the sovereign countries (most exactly the UN member states and the Vatican). This list might be named as "List of sovereign countries by highest point". Just to be more accurate, in this very list the UK should participate with Mount Paget, Denmark with Gunnbjorn Fjaeld, and so on. A separate list (called ie. "List of other entities by highest point") would contain the highest points of any other states and territories (regardless of their current political situation). This secont list would easily be extendable without any controversy and disagreement. 213.134.0.168 (talk) 10:16, 27 March 2008 (UTC)Tamas from Hungary (Viewfinder knows me)

The separate inclusion of overseas territories has become established on this list. Regarding Kosovo, the previous editor's claim that it is included separately on other lists by country appears to be valid, despite lack of formal UN recognition. I still think that Serbia's claim should be given equal weight, but I am not going to contest this further, other than to restore the footnotes. Viewfinder (talk) 10:20, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Territories

There are many territories in this list (e.g. Hong Kong, Svalbard, Jersey). I am fine with this, but I don't think they should be ranked given that the name of this page is List of countries by highest point. jax (talk) 14:12, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Denmark

Clicking on the highest point of Denmark, the article names a higher point in Denmark. I do not know witch one is correct... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 145.97.229.24 (talk) 21:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there is a contradiction here. I will correct this one. Viewfinder (talk) 20:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)