Talk:List of counties of the United Kingdom

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Contents

[edit] List?

This article isn't really a list. Its a mix of things that really don't come under the banner of counties: Lieutenancy areas (Scotland), scotland regions, etc. It also forks lots of existing articles, which isn't the function of a list. MRSC • Talk 08:09, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok. I've completed a full list of England and Wales. Still Scotland and Northern Ireland to do. MRSC • Talk 12:49, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lists and split lists

This is a United Kingdom article, as much for those beyond the UK as in it. The protocol is to keep such material together, not split it up regionally. Nevertheless separated lists might help to analyse the detail where there are particular statutory provisions analysed. Sundered lists too appear to demote Scottish counties to an afterthough, which is an injustice. Howard Alexander (talk) 19:12, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. --Jza84 |  Talk  01:29, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
The aggregated UK list is problematic. It tries to compare like-with-like when each area has different histories and changes. Gwent, for example, was not a 'non-metropolitan county'. It was just a 'county' or possibly 'Welsh county'. There should either be a UK list only or just the list by constituent countries, rather than repeat the same information on the same article. MRSC • Talk 09:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The UK list was very confusing and would need to be laid out differently if it is to be reinstated. Keith D (talk) 14:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Ah, I see the rationale to split these now. OK, that's fine, it was something I'd overlooked. --Jza84 |  Talk  16:50, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Postal county/former postal county

Some counties were added to the postal county list which are not postal counties as defined by the Royal Mail. Counties held in the alias file under "administrative"/"traditional" are not postal counties. MRSC • Talk 09:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

But all three kinds are permissible as part of a postal address - why just pick one of the alias fields and pretend it is the sole allowable "postal county"? Either list all three alias fields, or put them all together under a "postally acceptable" column as I have. Owain (talk) 19:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
They were added again without edit summary. Postal county is a defined term and we should refect that definition, not synthesise our own. Absolutely anything is 'postally allowable' now as a substitute for the postal county, but that doesn't mean it has become a postal county. MRSC • Talk 15:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Nobody is synthesising anything. You are choosing to list only one of the three county alias fields from the PAF Alias file, and thus demonstrating a PoV. If "postal county" is a defined term according to the Royal Mail, then so is "traditional county". Choosing only one of them is PoV. Owain (talk) 15:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Another problem is: who knows what information is included under "traditional" county? Could include Huntingdon and Peterbrough, Edinburghshire, Isle of Ely, Haddingtonshire, Zetland, Tweeddale, Parts of Lindsey, County of London.... without a copy of the PAF (all of it) any addition is WP:OR. Same is true of the "Administrative County" field. I have seen an address listed as in "County Conwy" before now. That could include Greater Manchester, Greater London, all of the mini non-met counties (e.g. Blackburn & Darwen, Milton Keynes, City of Bristol). So we have no definitive list of any of these, *and* neither does the Royal Mail according to the source! The former postal counties, on the other hand have been clearly defined and until 1996 had a real status. I suspect the all the stuff in the "alias" file is to help deliver mail when all else fails.Lozleader (talk) 15:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
That's a bit disingenuous. Without a copy of the PAF how do we know what the is in the "former postal county" field? They had been clearly defined, but where is the current definitive list? In the same place that the current definitive list of "traditional" counties are - i.e. in the PAF itself. Their list clearly doesn't contain things like Huntingdon and Peterborough and Lindsey as those are not by definition "traditional counties". In fact it is the same data as in the ABC gazetteer of place names. If a definitive list is needed for one type of alias data, then clearly it is needed for both. As I suggested earlier, either we list both, or neither. Anything else is clearly selective and PoV. Owain (talk) 05:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
AFAIK there is no official definition of "traditional counties". One person's "tradition" is not anothers: it's completely subjective. Also all traditions are invented at some point in time see appeal to tradition. Is there any evidence that the Royal Mail would use the ABC database? The PAF guide states that the information is neither comprehensive or accurate. I would suggest that many places have more than one "traditional" county (e.g. Bristol, which has been a county of itself for 613 of the last 635 years, but also has Gloucestershire and Somerset connections; or Chester which had county status centuries before Cheshire was formed). In some senses there is still a "tradition" of a county of Avon: its name lives on in many organisations despite its demise, and there is a "Huntingdon and Peterborough County" in rugby union. The Isle of Ely predates Cambridgeshire as an administrative entity, so surely has "tradition" on its side. There is no one set!
Is there any evidence that the Royal Mail would use the ABC database?. Yes. The Royal Mail Address Management Centre state that they get their data from the ABC. Whether you agree with it or not, for the Royal Mail database, there is one set - i.e. the traditional county field in the Alias product. Owain (talk) 08:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
There is a definitive list of former postal counties in the "Post Town Gazetteer" (see chapter 18 of the PAF guide). Unfortunately it costs £58.75 to buy! I have a list from the 1980s: unfortunately its only part of a Royal Mail leaflet, so not citable, as I'm sure the rest was binned twenty years ago! The postal counties were frozen in 1996 apart from Rutland, so it's probably more or less accurate...
The point is that the Post Town Gazetteer is a comprehensive list and was once used to deliver letters, showing that the former postal county has (or had) a formal status. The alias is not, it's just some (but not all) odd bits and pieces that people might add to addresses, including alternative names for streets, informal locality names etcetera. Lozleader 12:57, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Of course, the problem is that postal "counties" were not really counties at all, just information added to an address to identify similar sounding post towns. As the minister said in 1974 when asked about them "Postal addresses are routing instructions, not geographical descriptions". I worked in a sorting office one Christmas (back in my student days) and we used the counties to make sure all the non-local mail got in the right sack and on the right train. Anywhere unfamiliar without a county on the address was left in one spot to be checked via the reference books. This was where the postcode helped. The local mail was all sorted by postcode or postcode sector. Lozleader (talk) 13:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
The list of postal counties in on p. 196 of the source cited. MRSC • Talk 07:52, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] County Borough of Londonderry

Just to clarify: the county borough (the area to which a Lord-Lieutenant and high sheriff is appointed) is still called Londonderry. The change of the name of the city council and local government district did not effect this.[1] [2] In fact the county borough is a much smaller entity than the local government district (3.4 square miles according to Whitaker's Almanac), being "frozen" on the 1973 boundaries. it is clearly shown in the "Ordnance Survey Complete Road Atlas of Ireland". I don't think there is actually any mechanism for changing the name of the county borough: possibly amending the Local Government (Ireland) Act 1898? The name of the city is, on reflection, different again and involves applying to HM for a new charter. Even if that happened I don't think it effects the county borough... Lozleader (talk) 12:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)