Talk:List of compositions by Ludwig van Beethoven

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Contents

[edit] Older discussion (through 2005)

[edit] Op. 44

Okay, is Beethoven's op.44 variations on an original theme or on a Dittersdorf opera? I keep hearing different things.

[edit] Title styles

It is a bad idea, in my opinion, to have links to titles like Piano Sonata No. 23 in F minor, Opus 57 (Beethoven) when there is nothing wrong with simply Piano Sonata No. 23 (Beethoven) or even Appassionata Sonata. It is unnecessarily complicated, and I can't think of any benefits over more simple titles, so I'm changing all these links (incidentally, see also Wikipedia:Naming conventions (pieces of music), which is where we should probably discuss this if there's any disagreement. --Camembert

OK, I've changed the links. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I'm convinced it's better than linking to elaborate titles with keys and opus numbers always included - much better to go with a title that people can link to without having to look it up (if you see what I mean). In some cases, I think it's pretty academic what title we link to, because the chances of somebody in the forseeable future writing about the song "Der Mann von Wort", op. 99, for instance, is tiny; but for symphonies, sonatas, quartets and other large and well-known works, I do think it's quite important to make things as linkable and as simple as possible. So that (I hope) is what I've done. --Camembert

I find it confusing to find titles such as Fidelio, Egmont, and Diabelli Variations mixed in with titles such as Piano Sonata No. 8 (Beethoven) and Symphony No. 3 (Beethoven). All works by Beethoven (I think) should be named under the same naming convention. What I was trying to do was create one naming system that would apply to all Beethoven's works. I think we should be true to the names under which they were published or under which they were given by Beethoven. Kingturtle 19:33, 31 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay in replying - only just noticed this (must've missed it on my watchlist somehow). You say "I think we should be true to the names under which they were published or under which they were given by Beethoven". I'm looking at the title page of a score of his third symphony (Eulenberg edition, miniature score) and it says "Beethoven - Op. 55 - Symphonie No. 3 - Eb major - (Eroica)." I think we can agree that that wouldn't make a good article title. Similarly, I have a score of the fourth symphony which just says on the title page "Ludwig van Beethoven - Symphonie". This also isn't a good title.

There are probably dozens of reasonable titles one could give these pieces, but there's no need to make them more complex than is necessary (that's why we don't include the "(Beethoven)" unless its necessary - that's standard Wikipedia practice. We don't include "(movie)" after every movie either, unless there's something else with the same name). But as I say, Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (pieces of music) is probably the place to discuss this if you want to continue. --Camembert

[edit] Calm sea...

I recently heard | Calm Sea and Prosperous Voyage at the Baltimore Symphony. Is anybody familiar with this piece? I've googled it, and it comes up as different things. Does it belong on this list? Taco325i 14:10 9 Aug 2005.

Yes. The one by Beethoven is not done as often as the overture by Mendelssohn. Beethoven's version is for four voices and orchestra, Meeresstille und glückliche Fahrt, opus 112, written 1814-1815, first performed Christmas Day 1815. It wasn't published until 1822 which is why it got such a late opus number. It's based on the poem by Goethe (and was dedicated to him). Hope this helps! Antandrus (talk) 18:21, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nicknames of symphonies

Do all of Beethoven's symphonies have nicknames? 70.152.141.226 00:06, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

The only Beethoven symphonies with widely used nicknames in English are those given in the article: "Eroica" for the third, "Pastoral" for the sixth and "Choral" for the ninth. --Camembert

[edit] Dates

I added the clarification that the dates listed in parentheses are publication dates, which I assumed because I know that the first six string quartets were not written in the same year. I hope this is correct. --Robert Turner 21:21, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sonata in E flat

I'm doing a presentation on some of Beethoven's works. Can anyone tell me anything about Sonata No. 33 in E flat? Especially the first movement. I'd really appreciate it. Thanks.

He only wrote 32 complete sonatas. --Hesperides
This is not the case, if one counts youthful works which are sometimes still played (the Electoral Sonatas). Schissel | Sound the Note! 15:47, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
E flat is the key of the first of them (the Electoral or Kurfürsten Sonatas, WoO.47/1-3, written around 1783)- the movements are: 1. Allegro cantabile, 2. Andante, 3. Rondo vivace. ([1] for sound samples and a midi, from the first I think, at [2]) - and this may well be what was referred to. Some sources on the sonatas in general (on the web) include this - [3]. Schissel | Sound the Note! 16:06, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Folksong Arrangements

Added to the lists some of Mr. B's folksong arrangements. --Hesperides

[edit] 10th Symphony

Should this be mentioned next the actual symphonies, or somewhere at the end, or not at all? It seems quite out of place to mention a piece written by someone else on a page called "List of Works by Beethoven". Tiki2099 16:18, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Piano Trio in F minor

I've run across mention of an unfinished work, "Piano Trio in F minor" and looked here to see if it was included in the listing of Beethoven's works ... I don't see it or I'm not recognizing it as listed. If it would be appropriate to list this work, could someone knowledgable in the area add it? Included below are a couple of links with information related to this work. Regards, User:Ceyockey (talk to me) 16:35, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sharps and flats

I'm planning to replace all the sharp and flat words with ♯ and ♭- can everyone read these symbols, and are they the best ones to use? Stephen B Streater 08:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that's a bad idea. I don't think I've ever seen it done that way, and isn't as readily clear. --Milton 05:34, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Piano Sonata

Were not his first 16 Piano Sonatas really written for the harpsichord, and should not they be labled as such?

I don't think they were. Beethoven was a pretty popular pianist in his day, and the piano-forte was invented almost 100 years before Beethoven got started. --Milton 05:41, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Violin/Cello Sonatas"

I know that in colloquial speech those sonatas usually are called like that, but the original titles are "Sonaten fũr Klavier und Violine/Violoncello" and not "Violin-/Violoncellosonaten", not even "Sonaten fũr Violine/Violoncello und Kalvier". Shouldn't that be translated accordingly? Not only for reasons of grammatical correctness - the original title gives a better impression of the roles of the instruments: the violin/cello are by no means solo instruments in this sonatas and the piano is not merely accompanying. All pieces are true DUOS (and not 'duets', which probably also should be changed) with both instruments being treated equally. I will not make these changes myself because I am not a native English speaker and do not want to mess with your language but all modern Urtext editions (and the German Wikipedia) list the sonatas in this way...

[edit] Piano Sonata Bar

Should this bar ({{BeethovenPianoSonatas}}) be included on this page? Someone added it to the end of the piano sonatas section, and it seems that it might be redundant, or that it should at least have an explanation. Asmeurer 02:41, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you were too kind. The template may be useful in the articles on individual sonatas, but here it was redundant and distracting. I got rid of it.—Turangalila talk 22:12, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What? No catalogue numbering system?

Aside from "Opus" and "WoO", why doesn't Beethoven have a *comprehensive* catalogue code, like Bach (BWV), Mozart (KV), and even Vivaldi (RV) ? Seems strange no musicologist has created one. I mean, it's Beethoven. Or is there some other reason? Just wondrin'. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.62.212.69 (talk) 02:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

According to Opus number, Beethoven added opus numbers himself, therefore eliminating the need for other systems. Asmeurer (talk • contribs) 04:13, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
The short answer is: it just hasn't happened yet (and may never happen). The longer answer is: because the published record of Beethoven's works is both better than the earlier composers, and worse. Music publishing was more developed by Beethoven's day; opus numbers don't exist for many many pieces by Mozart & Vivaldi, & I think not at all for Bach, so the need for catalogue numbers was more urgent for them; in Beethoven's case almost all the more popular works have commonly accepted numbers--both opus numbers and genre numbers (e.g. sym #5; Piano cto #3, etc). At the same time the history of Beethoven editions is a crazy quilt; the old Breitkopf "Complete Works" is notoriously incomplete and not particularly authoritative textually either. Some attributions are still controversial (as the list documents) The autographs were scattered to the four winds for decades and decades -- one autograph of the Grosse Fuge was dug up just a couple of years ago. Various competing critical editions continue to come out -- the Bärenreiter] critical edition of the symphonies was completed just in the 1990s, and not everyone is in love with that. Add to all this the conflicting editions of Fidelio, the long history of conductors re-orchestrating the symphonies, etc etc...the upshot is we're left so far without either a final comprehensive cataloging, nor even, for many pieces, authoritative edtions. So it goes...—Turangalila talk 21:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Song

What is the part about the song, it looks like vandalism to me, sould all that be there or is it just vandalism.189.171.178.143 18:36, 1 July 2007 (UTC)Rolugomi


[edit] March

What about Yorck`s March? Should´t it be included? See here: [4] It´s quite well known.--Tresckow 02:14, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Germania, WoO 94

I think this should be listed, I can't give much information on it, but it is symphonic + a chorus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.83.186.67 (talk) 20:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bagatelles WoO

I'm surprised that the listing of Bagatelles includes only the Opus 33, 119 and 126 sets plus WoO 59 ("Für Elise").

The ABRSM/Howard Ferguson edition includes WoO 52-54, 56, 59-60. In more detail these are given in the score as

  • Bagatelle in C minor WoO 52 with a tempo of Presto and a 1797 date
  • Bagatelle in C minor WoO 53 with a tempo of Allegretto and a 1796-8 date
  • Bagatelle: Lustig-Traurig WoO 54 with a date of c.1798
  • Bagatelle in C WoO 56 with a tempo of Allegretto and date 1803-4
  • Bagatelle: ("Für Elise") WoO 59 with date 27 April 1810
  • Bagatelle: in B flat WoO 60 with a tempo of Ziemlich lebhaft dated 14 August 1818.

In our listing of the WoOs we have them as WoO 52: Presto for Piano in C major (1795, rev. 1798 and 1822) WoO 53: Allegretto for piano in C minor (1796-97) WoO 54: Bagatelle for piano in C major (1802) WoO 56: Allegretto for piano in C major (1803, rev. 1822) WoO 59: Bagatelle No. 25 in A minor, "Für Elise" (c. 1810) WoO 60: Bagatelle for piano in B-flat major (1818)

So three are labled as Bagatelles, three not, and there are some date and key discrepancies.

The Brendel/Brilliant Classics set of variations and Bagatelles includes WoO 53 titled as an Allegretto in C Minor, WoO 59 (with the expected title), Wo0 60 As ZIEMLICH LEBHAFT in b flat major WoO 60 so no mention of W0) 53 & 59 being bagatelles.

The 50 disc EMI Beethoven "The collector's edition" set includes a bagatelle in C minor, dated 1797 (this turns out to be WoO 52), a bagatelle in C dated 1804 (this turns out to be WoO 56) and WoO 59 with the same details as the above sources.

The 60 disc Sony/RCA/BMG set includes WoO 59 with the additional decription of Albumblatt in parentheses, WoO 53 as an Allegretto, (the E-Booklet claims it exists in two versions,) WoO 52 as a Bagtelle and WoO 54 as Klavierstück Lustig-Traurig.

So how do people think we should list these? I'm inclined to add all these into the Bagtelle list and go for the majority on issues like dates. WoO 52 certainly has a C Minor key signature, not C Major.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:46, 11 April 2008 (UTC)