Talk:List of chess grandmasters

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Chess, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of chess. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.

Chess Portal

List

This article has been rated as List-Class on the quality scale.

Mid

This article has been rated as Mid-Importance on the importance scale.

[edit] Dates receiving title

It would be great to include the date the player received the GM title, but this might be too hard to get for many players. Jeremy Gaige's Chess Personalia should have the dates for most GMs who earned their titles before 1987, but that leaves a 20 year gap. I'm sure FIDE has this information, but I don't know how to get it from them. Quale (talk) 09:46, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The Bill Wall reference contains about 50% of these dates (year only). Chessgames.com also has a lot of them. I didn't include them in this initial list as it was enough work already (wrote a program to merge the three lists from the reference and filter out the doubles). Perhaps we should first try to fill in the missing dob (dates like 1975.0.0). Shouldn't be too hard for most of them. Voorlandt (talk) 09:59, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
- Come to think of it, I really should have included them. But we can create an extra column and fill them in gradually I guess. Voorlandt (talk) 10:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
  - I am again impressed that you took on this task, since I know it's a lot of work. We can certainly add them later, and I agree that birth and death dates are more important and can be done first. When I wrote "dates" I was really thinking "years" anyway, as the precise dates titles were earned are far too hard to figure out. There's also the problem that there are two possible interpretations of the title date. Officially they were issued only at the annual FIDE Congress, so everyone got them at the same time each year. (I think now FIDE makes the awards several times a year. Grandmaster doesn't talk about this specifically, but it should if we can find references.) Often, however, the precise day that the final norm or rating requirement is met is considered the date the title was earned, even though the actual award might not be for some months. (I know I'm not telling you anything you don't already know (probably better than I do), but it might help someone else looking at this discussion.) The very large table on the page takes a while to load, but the cool sortable columns feature lets us do fun things like sort by country or by date of death, to see who is deceased and who is still alive. (I see that Maroczy got his title just in time.) Because these sorts are supposed to be stable, when we have the GM years we will be able to do neat things like sort by the GM year column first and then country column. This will group by countries and sort the players by year they earned the title within each country. Quale (talk) 10:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
    - The loading is indeed slow. So slow that the sorting by country currently doesn't work. Perhaps because the server is too busy? As the templates take so long to load, what do you think about removing the country templates, and just having the country name instead? I am sure it will load much faster then. Voorlandt (talk) 21:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
      - I thought about suggesting that, and I think trying without the country flags would be good. I don't know how much of a difference it will make, but it's worth trying. Quale (talk) 21:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
        
        Ok I have removed the templates and saved, and then reverted. I think without it is a little faster, but it doesn't look so nice. Could you give the fast version a try? I am curious to hear what you think. Voorlandt (talk) 22:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
        
        I actually meant removing the flag images also. They're colorful and I like them, but it adds about 1000 images to the page and might slow the browser table rendering down. Quale (talk) 07:01, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
        
        Yes, that's what I tried, the test edit is saved as [1] It doesn't have the flags. (I reverted it until there some consensus whether it is better or not).Voorlandt (talk) 08:05, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
        
        Sorry, I misunderstood. I see now. I'm not sure how much faster it is without the flags. Maybe the size of the table will always be an issue. I suppose we might be able to put a csv file on wikisource and link to it. If set up properly, that can automatically open a spreadsheet when it is downloaded and performance then shouldn't be a problem. Quale (talk) 08:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Which title year should we use for http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1554? It's called the First Quarter FIDE Presidential Board 2008 but they met 21-22 Dec 2007 and the list was posted 24 Dec 2007. Fortunately for us there were only 3 GM titles granted Quale (talk) 20:11, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
- BLR Maiorov, Nikita
- RUS Askarov, Marat
- RUS Bryzgalin, Kirill
  - I thought about these a little and decided that 2007 is probably more appropriate. Clearly they had met the title requirements in 2007. Quale (talk) 15:25, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
Another note, Xu Yuhua won the Womens' World Championship in 2006, which I think means her title date should be 2006. This page says the FIDE President registered the title in 2007. Quale (talk) 20:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Kazakhstan entries

Excellent list; I've already had fun sorting by country. I did however notice that there is a Bolat Asanov and a Bolat Assanov. FIDE has only an Assanov, but if one entry is erroneous, then I don't know which has the correct d-o-b? Most likely you have the answer. Brittle heaven (talk) 19:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what happened but Bolat Assanov had the same dob as Gerardo Barbero, so probably a copy and paste mistake when I was going through the doubles. Thanks for spotting this. Do keep checking, as I am sure there are more mistakes. What would be nice is also to get the countries right, currently, most are taken from FIDE, but it would nice to have either multiple countries in case of transfers or just the country of birth. Voorlandt (talk) 19:41, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FIDE rating cards

We might also want to add a column for a link to the players' FIDE rating cards. This could be especially helpful for the redlinks. It will be very tedious to populate, but the links can be added incrementally—no need to do all the work at once. Quale (talk) 22:17, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Number

This may seem a silly question but is there an easy way of working out how many names are on the list? Also there's a note saying the list is incomplete; what kind of GMs are most likely to be missing? Pawnkingthree (talk) 14:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

It appears there is currently 1249 on this list(copy & paste to excel and count). A check on FIDE's website suggests a similar number. ChessCreator (talk) 14:29, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I extracted the list from the three sources listed in the article. FIDE's advanced search gives 1129 grandmasters, but only displays the first 500 or so, so I extracted them in different rating classes 2600-2800, 2500-2600, etc... Odly enough, the result adds up to 1120. Which is the same number when you filter for GM's with rating 1500-3000. The problem is that some GM's currently don't have a rating as their federation forgot to pay their fees for instance (eg Chile). So potentially 9 GM's are missing from FIDE. (although Chile which has 3 GM's is complete, so say max 6 missing).

FIDE only has data available of living GM's, the deceased players were taken from the two other links. Potentially some of them are missing (but the list of them does not increase as long as we update from FIDE). I am quite confident we have most of the deceased grandmasters now, but one can never be sure! In the future, this list can be updated using the approved titles link on fide (eg [2] ).

When I put the template of incomplete list, I was primarily thinking of dates of birth and death and title approved. Currently there are 3 GM's without a birth year! (just click sort on birthdate to see them). Other GM's have the dob/dod year, but month and day are missing. It is easy to look for these GM's in the list by searching with your internet browser for .0.0 . On the dob/dod years, a lot of them can be found in chessgames and especially bidmonfa. The title-approved-year can often be found in chessgames, the Bill Wall website and on wikipedia (en.wikipedia but also de.wikipedia). There is a lot of work left, but many hands make hard work light! Voorlandt (talk) 19:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Fide's list includes David Bronstein who died in 2006, there maybe others.

The sort thing that you refer to doesn't show on the Firefox browser.ChessCreator (talk) 19:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah FIDE is a bit sloppy, but that doesn't matter really, as we want all of them anyway! It does work on Firefox, I don't use anything else than firefox. Do other sortable tables work on your computer (eg Indian Chess Championship)?

Resolved, it didn't work, but I see the issue now, it's javascript. ChessCreator (talk) 20:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Just to alert those talking numbers - I removed Tamaz Georgadze (mirror of Tamaz Giorgadze), so there is now one less on the list. Brittle heaven (talk) 07:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Country Flag

What's this suppose to show? Place of birth, country they got GM title, nationality? Susan Polgar is shown as Hungarian, which is where she was born but she is USA GM now and FIDE has her as USA. ChessCreator (talk) 20:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Great question. I think we don't know. We have to figure out exactly how we want to handle this. My suggestion is that ideally we'd have first the country in which they earned the title, followed by any other countries that they later had any significant chess career in. Notice that this means that Fischer doesn't get an Icelandic flag. What do you think? Quale (talk) 20:42, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, a lot of GMs were born in the former Yugoslovia and got their GM title when there still was a Yugoslovia. But these are listed by the individual countries now. Is that how we want to do it? Bubba73 (talk), 21:25, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Can we be clear what the country means and make it clear on the article what the country means. Someone just changed 'Igor Ivanov from USSR to Canada (he defected in 1980)', yet my understanding is the country it the nationality of birth hence Susan Polgar is shown as

Hungary and not

United States. ChessCreator (talk) 23:24, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Anyone. ChessCreator (talk) 01:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

If we leave it as just one country per entry, that's going to lead to endless arguments as to which is "correct". I don't think it is all country of birthplace at the moment; the very first entry has Jacob Aagaard as Scottish. There doesn't seem to be any consistency. But if we start adding extra countries, that's going to alter the look of the table and could lead to unnecessary complexity. It's a tough one. Pawnkingthree (talk) 11:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

It's definitely not birth, because that wouldn't make any sense. If Irina Krush ever earns a GM title (looks pretty unlikely these days, but hypothetically), it would be beyond bizarre to list only Ukraine because she was born there. Reasonable ways to do it would be nationality when the GM title was earned, or nationality covering the bulk or end of the player's career. There's no reason why the country of birth couldn't be included as well as long as one or more countries determined by more sensible criteria are also listed. Right now we have Jacques Mieses listed as Germany, which is reasonable, although technically I think he had British citizenship when he was awarded the title. I'd say it should simply be nationality when the GM title is earned, plus possibly any subsequent nationalities during the player's active career. It would take some work to sort this out. Quale (talk) 19:26, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vladimir Antoshin

Kazic has him down as 1963 for his GM title; someone has already entered 1964. Not a big difference, but worth noting here in case there is another source that can be consulted. Brittle heaven (talk) 20:25, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

chessgames.com and Bill Wall both have 1964. The latter says he was awarded IM in 1963. Voorlandt (talk) 21:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, a bit split this one - Golombek and Sunnucks both say 1964, Hooper & Whyld and Kazic, 1963. Probably best left alone for now. Brittle heaven (talk) 23:15, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I might be the one who put in 1964 when I was going through the A's. Jeremy Gaige says 1964 with the IM title in 1963. Remember however that Gaige isn't inerrant, and not all of these sources are independent. Several sources saying the same thing might simply be copying each other. Quale (talk) 23:53, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mijo Udovcic

Another one in dispute - the current text says 1957, Kazic says 1962. Brittle heaven (talk) 21:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

This was probably one of my edits, took the date from chessgames [3]. However, Bill Wall, the german wikipedia and russian wikipedia agree with 1962 [4] and [5]. So feel free to change it, while you are doing these great additions! Voorlandt (talk) 21:21, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Golombek says IM title in '57, so this is probably where the confusion lies. Thanks. Brittle heaven (talk) 23:09, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Gaige agrees: IM in 1957, GM in 1962. Quale (talk) 23:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Also Whyld, Chess, The Records (1986), has IM 1957, GM 1952—an obvious typo. Quale (talk) 00:00, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dates from FIDE

First kudos to Quale for adding all this data from fide. The fide site is such a mess! How hard can it be to have a simple list of GM's and dates approved on their website. Anyhow, I had a look with google and the history of the page and this is what we have for now:

2002 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=38 DONE
2002 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=96 DONE!
2003 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=129 DONE
2003 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=131 DONE!
2003 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=259 DONE!
2004 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=369 DONE!
2004 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=513 DONE!
2004 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=586 DONE!
2005 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=726 – title norms instead of actual title awards? (not sure)
2005 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=783 DONE
2005 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=843 DONE!
2006 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=988 DONE!
2006 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1031 DONE!
2006 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1159 DONE!
2007 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1232 DONE!
2007 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1389 DONE!
2007 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1466 DONE!
2007 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1514 DONE
2007 http://www.fide.com/news.asp?id=1554 DONE

Please add to this list if you find other pages. This list should then go in the references (but in a better format). I don't dare to do edits to the article now, as Quale is on a terrific role! How many times per year are titles awarded? There is also this [6]. I am not really understanding how they work, would be nice if someone could clear this out. Voorlandt (talk) 21:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Calling FIDE's site a mess is being far too kind to it. I noted that in a report/minutes from one of the Congresses that the Qualification Committee chair asked for a ratings history database so that they could study issues like rating inflation. It seems they record their data on punched cards and do their computations on abacuses. (Just kidding about the punched cards and abacuses. I hope.) I'm done with editing for a while (off to a birthday dinner), so anyone who wants a crack at this article for a while can have it. I probably should have used Template:inuse on the article. This is exactly the type of article that is really annoying to get an edit conflict on, and sections can't help us. Quale (talk) 21:53, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
FIDE site is like a test of your ability to find something.

Have just added 'Xu, Yuhua' whom I found became a GM in 2007 by some strange way. Here is the info. http://fide.com/official/regbypresident.phtml ChessCreator (talk) 00:43, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, I had posted a question about this a little earlier near the end of #Dates receiving title. I'm not sure if 2007 or 2006 is the right date, since she won the Women's World Championship in 2006. Quale (talk) 15:27, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The FIDE announcements that Voorlandt found are done, with the exception of one in 2005 that might not indicate actually titles as noted above. It seems to me that we might be short some announcements for 2005. If so, maybe they will turn up. Quale (talk) 16:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I now added the above references to the article and compared them to the list in [7]. It seems that for 2002-2007 we are missing: 1st quarter Presidential Board, 2002; 1st quarter Presidential Board, 2005; 2nd quarter Presidential Board, 2005. It seems that some years had 4 quarters (meetings), others three. Voorlandt (talk) 20:41, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GM Titles for Westerinen and Christiansen when?

Golombek suggests (the wording isn't clear) Westerinen 1965 and Christiansen 1977 and these dates are currently entered in the list. However, other sources suggest Westerinen 1975 (Whyld, Brace) and Christiansen 1981 (Whyld). I think the latter dates are probably correct, but do we have a consensus? Brittle heaven (talk) 01:29, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Gaige says Westerinen 1975 (not even an IM in 1965, IM date is 1967) and Christiansen 1977. In fact I was probably the one who put 1977 in for Christiansen as a day or so ago I went through A,B, and C in Gaige and made as many updates as I could find. Quale (talk) 02:46, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
olimpbase.org also has some information that might help, although it probably draws from one of the sources we have already consulted. Westerinen shows no title at the 1966 Olympiad, IM at the 1968 through 1974 Olympiads, and a GM at the 1976 Olympiad. Christiansen shows GM at his first Olympiad in 1980, and in fact also GM at the 1978 World Youth U-26 Team Ch. Quale (talk) 04:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The Oxford Companion gives 1977 for Christiansen. No entry for Westerinen unfortunately. Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The FIDE site rules :)

Well, at least there is something on the site that can help us finding the dob of the more recent GM's. It is this link [8], then you can click on a certain meeting, giving a link such as [9], and then one can click on a player, such as [10], and finally, you can click on the title application, which usually contains the full dob, such as in [11]. Voorlandt (talk) 19:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I was going to mention the title application stuff but you beat me to it. The title applications are great. Not only do we get date of birth, but also birth city. (Gaige used title applications as a source for Chess Personalia even though they weren't on the web in 1986.) Now if only FIDE would tell us if and when the applications were granted.... Quale (talk) 20:05, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
One can look for a specific player on that subpage using google with site extension, for instance: "Buhmann Rainer site:www.fide.com/titles/apps.asp", gives you only hits within these title application site. Should speed up searching a bit. Now if I only had a bit more time on my hands.. :) Voorlandt (talk) 20:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fide file download

FIDE file, assisted with Excel. If this is useful, let me know will then do 'I' thru 'Z'.

FIDE ID; Name; Country; Born Flag
1401815 Aagaard, Jacob SCO 1973
13400665 Abbasov, Farid AZE 1979
10200444 Abdulla, Al-Rakib BAN 1980
900206 Abramovic, Bosko SRB 1951
708020 Acs, Peter HUN 1981
400041 Adams, Michael ENG 1971
7100019 Adianto, Utut INA 1965
10601619 Adly, Ahmed EGY 1987
700096 Adorjan, Andras HUN 1950 i
13400215 Agamaliev, Gamil AZE 1974
1500015 Agdestein, Simen NOR 1967
1705024 Agrest, Evgenij SWE 1966
14109069 Ajrapetjan, Yuriy UKR 1988
1700120 Akesson, Ralf SWE 1961
13300580 Akobian, Varuzhan USA 1983
13300032 Akopian, Vladimir ARM 1971
12100030 Al-Modiahki, Mohamad QAT 1974
2000156 Alburt, Lev O USA 1945 i
13500139 Aleksandrov, Aleksej BLR 1973
4138147 Alekseev, Evgeny RUS 1985
702293 Almasi, Zoltan HUN 1976
3503313 Almeida Quintana, Omar CUB 1981
2801906 Alterman, Boris ISR 1970
10601457 Amin, Bassem EGY 1988
14700077 Amonatov, Farrukh TJK 1978
4204077 Anagnostopoulos, Dimitri GRE 1970
5000017 Anand, Viswanathan IND 1969
13300059 Anastasian, Ashot ARM 1964
1700014 Andersson, Ulf SWE 1951
14103400 Andreev, Eduard UKR 1980
4158814 Andreikin, Dmitry RUS 1990
13302000 Andriasian, Zaven ARM 1989
602612 Anic, Darko FRA 1957
700754 Anka, Emil HUN 1969
14000016 Annageldyev, Orazly TKM 1960
14000032 Annakov, Babakuli USA 1972
901008 Antic, Dejan SRB 1968
5200032 Antonio, Rogelio Jr PHI 1962
1900013 Antunes, Antonio POR 1962 i
600164 Apicella, Manuel FRA 1970
7100027 Ardiansyah, H INA 1951 i
3500012 Arencibia Rodriguez, Walter CUB 1967
14109530 Areshchenko, Alexander UKR 1986
400270 Arkell, Keith C ENG 1961
4101146 Arkhipov, Sergey RUS 1954 i
2300036 Arnason, Jon L ISL 1960
13300474 Aronian, Levon ARM 1982
13601865 Aroshidze, Levan GEO 1985
13601741 Arutinian, David GEO 1984
2001012 Ashley, Maurice USA 1966 i
4141229 Askarov, Marat RUS 1987
13300490 Asrian, Karen ARM 1980
13700049 Assanov, Bolat KAZ 1961 i
14401487 Atalik, Suat TUR 1964
4101529 Averbakh, Yuri L RUS 1922 i
14109743 Aveskulov, Valeriy UKR 1986
2803895 Avrukh, Boris ISR 1978
13501470 Azarov, Sergei BLR 1983
13601326 Azmaiparashvili, Zurab GEO 1960
13400681 Babaev, Rashad AZE 1981
301264 Babula, Vlastimil CZE 1973
2500914 Baburin, Alexander IRL 1967
3700488 Bachmann, Axel PAR 1989
605506 Bacrot, Etienne FRA 1983
1200038 Badea, Bela ROU 1969
13600133 Bagaturov, Giorgi GEO 1964
12500283 Bagheri, Amir IRI 1978
13400401 Bagirov, Rufat AZE 1979
14102196 Baklan, Vladimir UKR 1978
5004195 Bakre, Tejas IND 1981
4100263 Balashov, Yuri S RUS 1949
1610201 Balinov, Ilia AUT 1966
718939 Balogh, Csaba HUN 1987
4202031 Banikas, Hristos GRE 1978
4667719 Baramidze, David GER 1988
700851 Barczay, Laszlo HUN 1936
4100140 Bareev, Evgeny RUS 1966
900214 Barlov, Dragan SRB 1957
14200082 Barsov, Alexei UZB 1966
1112635 Bartel, Mateusz POL 1985
5000025 Barua, Dibyendu IND 1966
7100094 Barus, Cerdas INA 1962 i
14000237 Batyrov, Sapar TKM 1967
603767 Bauer, Christian FRA 1977
3501728 Becerra Rivero, Julio USA 1973
1613782 Beim, Valery AUT 1950
14602377 Beliavsky, Alexander G SLO 1953
4103904 Belikov, Vladimir RUS 1971
600229 Belkhodja, Slim TUN 1962
2200031 Bellon Lopez, Juan Manuel ESP 1950
4132394 Belov, Vladimir RUS 1984
4120213 Belozerov, Andrei RUS 1977
2000091 Benjamin, Joel USA 1964
2000687 Benko, Pal C USA 1928 i
4105249 Berdichevski, Igor RUS 1964
14101440 Berelovich, Aleksandar UKR 1967
1204920 Berescu, Alin ROU 1980
1704060 Berg, Emanuel SWE 1981
718572 Berkes, Ferenc HUN 1985
4105451 Beshukov, Sergei RUS 1971
4105257 Bezgodov, Alexei RUS 1969
4601718 Bezold, Michael GER 1972
700525 Bilek, Istvan HUN 1932 i
4676670 Bindrich, Falko GER 1990
4600045 Bischoff, Klaus GER 1961
2001098 Bisguier, Arthur B USA 1929
14400294 Bistric, Faruk BIH 1958
2000431 Biyiasas, Peter USA 1950 i
900885 Blagojevic, Dragisa MNE 1966
300047 Blatny, Pavel CZE 1968
1107836 Blehm, Pawel POL 1980
2603608 Bluvshtein, Mark CAN 1988
1106880 Bobras, Piotr POL 1977
4138716 Bocharov, Dmitry RUS 1982
4611268 Boensch, Uwe GER 1958
15000206 Bogdanovski, Vlatko MKD 1964
13900048 Bologan, Viktor MDA 1971
3500160 Borges Mateos, Juan CUB 1966
14102811 Borovikov, Vladislav UKR 1973
5500010 Bouaziz, Slim TUN 1950
600245 Bricard, Emmanuel FRA 1966
14506688 Brkic, Ante CRO 1988
14100932 Brodsky, Michail UKR 1969
4101359 Bronstein, David I umer del RUS 1924 i
2000210 Browne, Walter S. USA 1949
1300024 Brunner, Lucas SUI 1967
3503739 Bruzon Batista, Lazaro CUB 1982
1700219 Brynell, Stellan SWE 1962
4133285 Bryzgalin, Kirill RUS 1982
8601445 Bu, Xiangzhi CHN 1985
4651340 Buhmann, Rainer GER 1981
14600030 Bukic, Enver SLO 1937 i
4634284 Bunzmann, Dimitrij GER 1982
4105109 Burmakin, Vladimir RUS 1967
12800066 Butnorius, Algimantas LTU 1946
4101057 Bykhovsky, Avigdor RUS 1955
2000385 Byrne, Robert E USA 1928 i
3502783 Cabrera, Alexis COL 1976
900249 Cabrilo, Goran SRB 1958
100013 Campora, Daniel H. ARG 1957
3400034 Campos Moreno, Javier B. CHI 1959
725056 Cao, Sang HUN 1973
1503014 Carlsen, Magnus NOR 1990
1705814 Carlsson, Pontus SWE 1982
2020009 Caruana, Fabiano ITA 1992
14500094 Cebalo, Miso CRO 1945
600075 Chabanon, Jean-Luc FRA 1971
400050 Chandler, Murray G NZL 1960
2602504 Charbonneau, Pascal CAN 1983
2900440 Chatalbashev, Boris BUL 1974
4100859 Chekhov, Valery A RUS 1955
2905540 Cheparinov, Ivan BUL 1986
4117301 Cherniaev, Alexander RUS 1969
4103289 Chernikov, Oleg L RUS 1936
715620 Chernin, Alexander HUN 1960
4117328 Chernyshov, Konstantin RUS 1967
13600036 Chiburdanidze, Maia GEO 1961 w
2000059 Christiansen, Larry M USA 1956
201260 Chuchelov, Vladimir BEL 1969
1700588 Cicak, Slavko SWE 1969
2253488 Cifuentes Parada, Roberto ESP 1957
901431 Ciric, Dragoljub M SRB 1935
2200325 Comas Fabrego, Lluis ESP 1971
400181 Conquest, Stuart C ENG 1967
1700030 Cramling, Pia SWE 1963 w
1201271 Crisan, Alexandru ROU 1962 i
700100 Csom, Istvan HUN 1940
307424 Cvek, Robert CZE 1979
14500086 Cvitan, Ognjen CRO 1961
1108760 Cyborowski, Lukasz POL 1980
1121219 Czarnota, Pawel POL 1988
705268 Czebe, Attila HUN 1975
14500639 Damjanovic, Mato CRO 1927
900125 Damljanovic, Branko SRB 1961
13300237 Danielian, Oganes ARM 1974
1400185 Danielsen, Henrik ISL 1966
12400084 Dao, Thien Hai VIE 1978
4600150 Darga, Klaus GER 1934 i
4623606 Dautov, Rustem GER 1965
4000013 David, Alberto LUX 1970
404420 Davies, Nigel R ENG 1960
2000105 De Firmian, Nick E USA 1957
3501833 De La Paz Perdomo,Frank CUB 1975
6900224 De La Riva Aguado, Oscar AND 1972
1003909 De Vreugt, Dennis NED 1980
5011132 Deepan Chakkravarthy J. IND 1987
600270 Degraeve, Jean-Marc FRA 1971
2900394 Delchev, Aleksander BUL 1971
3503631 Delgado Ramirez, Neuris CUB 1981
700207 Dely, Peter HUN 1934 i
4700236 Dervishi, Erald ALB 1979
203882 Dgebuadze, Alexandre BEL 1971
2200155 Diez Del Corral, Jesus ESP 1933 i
2900050 Dimitrov, Vladimir BUL 1968
14500124 Dizdar, Goran CRO 1958
14400049 Dizdarevic, Emir CRO 1958
922412 Djukic, Nikola MNE 1983
1500082 Djurhuus, Rune NOR 1970
900133 Djuric, Stefan SRB 1955
2000075 Dlugy, Maxim USA 1966
4136594 Dobrov, Vladimir RUS 1984
4627253 Doettling, Fabian GER 1980
4100476 Dokhoian, Yury RUS 1964 i
4100093 Dolmatov, Sergey RUS 1959
3503240 Dominguez Perez, Lenier CUB 1983
2900025 Donchev, Dimitar I. BUL 1958 i
604011 Dorfman, Iossif D FRA 1952
900397 Drasko, Milan MNE 1962
901172 Drazic, Sinisa SRB 1967
4100107 Dreev, Alexey RUS 1969
14107180 Drozdovskij, Yuri UKR 1984
4100379 Dvoirys, Semen I. RUS 1958
4119800 Dyachkov, Sergej RUS 1976
13500031 Dydyshko, Viacheslav BLR 1949
4136209 Dzhakaev, Dzhakay RUS 1980
14200236 Dzhumaev, Marat UZB
2000113 Dzindzichashvili, Roman USA 1944 i
1112953 Dziuba, Marcin POL 1983
14107201 Efimenko, Zahar UKR 1985
806404 Efimov, Igor MNC 1960
4500016 Ehlvest, Jaan USA 1962
14100053 Eingorn, Vereslav S UKR 1956
14102951 Eljanov, Pavel UKR 1983
400254 Emms, John M ENG 1967
4611314 Enders, Peter GER 1963
4162714 Epishin, Vladimir RUS 1965
719978 Erdos, Viktor HUN 1987
2805642 Erenburg, Sergey ISR 1983
2900106 Ermenkov, Evgenij PLE 1949
1004689 Ernst, Sipke NED 1979
1700065 Ernst, Thomas SWE 1960
4611276 Espig, Lutz GER 1949
2000369 Evans, Larry M. USA 1932 i
4139275 Evdokimov, Alexander A. RUS 1985
700134 Farago, Ivan HUN 1946
14102536 Fedorchuk, Sergey A. UKR 1981
13500465 Fedorov, Alexei BLR 1972
2000083 Fedorowicz, John P USA 1958
107069 Felgaer, Ruben ARG 1981
634654 Feller, Sebastien FRA 1991
14500299 Fercec, Nenad CRO 1961
1900021 Fernandes, Antonio POR 1962
2200023 Fernandez Garcia, Jose Luis ESP 1954
2107139 Fier, Alexandr BRA 1988
300098 Filip, Miroslav CZE 1928 i
4117654 Filippov, Valerij RUS 1975
2801957 Finkel, Alexander ISR 1975
14102803 Fish, Gennadij GER 1973
2000377 Fishbein, Alexander USA 1968
400165 Flear, Glenn C ENG 1959
700363 Fogarasi, Tibor HUN 1969
4100590 Fominyh, Alexander RUS 1959
605590 Fontaine, Robert FRA 1980
700690 Forintos, Gyozo V HUN 1935
2209381 Franco Ocampos, Zenon PAR 1956
608742 Fressinet, Laurent FRA 1981
11600454 Fridman, Daniel GER 1976
4151976 Frolyanov, Dmitry RUS 1986
14900017 Ftacnik, Lubomir SVK 1957
4600967 Gabriel, Christian GER 1975
13601652 Gagunashvili, Merab GEO 1985
1116207 Gajewski, Grzegorz POL 1985
13300067 Galdunts, Sergey ARM 1965
1900072 Galego, Luis POR 1966
4120426 Galkin, Alexander RUS 1979
1303422 Gallagher, Joseph G. SUI 1964
5002150 Ganguly, Surya Shekhar IND 1983
13600125 Gaprindashvili, Nona GEO 1941 w
13601091 Gaprindashvili, Valeriane GEO 1982
3500179 Garcia Martinez, Silvino CUB 1944
110124 Garcia Palermo, Carlos ITA 1953
4400020 Garcia, Gildardo COL 1954
14200937 Gareev, Timur UZB 1988
14104466 Gasanov, Eldar UKR 1982
13400630 Gashimov, Vugar AZE 1986
1500031 Gausel, Einar NOR 1963
12801747 Gavrikov, Viktor LTU 1957
4127854 Gazarian, Aram RUS 1983 i
1100106 Gdanski, Jacek POL 1970
5015693 Geetha Narayanan Gopal IND 1989
13600702 Gelashvili, Tamaz GEO 1978
2805677 Gelfand, Boris ISR 1968
2900211 Genov, Petar BUL 1970
2900017 Georgiev, Kiril BUL 1965
2900092 Georgiev, Krum BUL 1958
2903024 Georgiev, Vladimir MKD 1975
2802430 Gershon, Alik ISR 1980
12500739 Ghaem Maghami, Ehsan IRI 1982
12500313 Ghane, Shojaat IRI 1975
1200011 Gheorghiu, Florin ROU 1944
1200119 Ghitescu, Theodor ROU 1934 i
4630629 Ginsburg, Gennadij GER 1971
13600044 Giorgadze, Giorgi GEO 1964
13600028 Giorgadze, Tamaz GEO 1947 i
4101332 Gleizerov, Evgeny RUS 1963
4100484 Glek, Igor V. GER 1961
900400 Gligoric, Svetozar SRB 1923 i
800090 Godena, Michele ITA 1967
2801574 Gofshtein, Leonid ISR 1953
2019540 Goldin, Alexander USA 1965
2804140 Golod, Vitali ISR 1971
14103222 Goloshchapov, Alexander UKR 1978
14100983 Golubev, Mikhail UKR 1970
2200163 Gomez Esteban, Juan Mario ESP 1958
5101174 Gonzalez Garcia, Jose MEX
406465 Gormally, Daniel W ENG 1976
1101684 Grabarczyk, Miroslaw POL 1971
4129199 Grachev, Boris RUS 1986
4680804 Graf, Alexander GER 1962
3800024 Granda Zuniga, Julio E PER 1967
4121015 Grechihin, Valery RUS 1937
2800039 Greenfeld, Alon ISR 1964
2300699 Gretarsson, Helgi Ass ISL 1977
1200186 Grigore, George-Gabriel ROU 1970
4130804 Grigoriants, Sergey RUS 1983
4126025 Grischuk, Alexander RUS 1983
14102188 Gritsak, Orest UKR 1973
4200039 Grivas, Efstratios GRE 1966
700053 Groszpeter, Attila HUN 1960
2800020 Gruenfeld, Yehuda ISR 1956
2015307 Gufeld, Eduard USA 1936
13400231 Guliev, Sarhan AZE 1968
13400363 Guliyev, Namig AZE 1974
2000040 Gulko, Boris F USA 1947
2000407 Gurevich, Dmitry USA 1956
2000628 Gurevich, Ilya USA 1972 i
200930 Gurevich, Mikhail TUR 1959
14100207 Gurevich, Vladimir UKR 1959
13600184 Gurgenidze, Bukhuti GEO 1933
13401378 Guseinov, Gadir AZE 1986
4625498 Gustafsson, Jan GER 1979
14102277 Gutman, Gennadi UKR 1973
4600177 Gutman, Lev GER 1945
4130480 Gutov, Andrey RUS 1978
702218 Gyimesi, Zoltan HUN 1977
300160 Haba, Petr CZE 1965
4201809 Halkias, Stelios GRE 1980
9000011 Hamdouchi, Hichem MAR 1972
4634527 Handke, Florian GER 1982
7100043 Handoko, Edhi INA 1960
1400010 Hansen, Curt DEN 1964
1400037 Hansen, Lars Bo DEN 1968
1400266 Hansen, Sune Berg DEN 1971
2801485 Har-Zvi, Ronen ISR 1976
5007003 Harikrishna, P. IND 1986
4122160 Hasangatin, Ramil RUS 1972
405248 Haslinger, Stewart G ENG 1981
4900332 Hatanbaatar, Bazar MGL 1973
600113 Hauchard, Arnaud FRA 1971
400084 Hebden, Mark L ENG 1958
1115120 Heberla, Bartlomiej POL 1985
4600320 Hecht, Hans-Joachim GER 1939
1700090 Hector, Jonny SWE 1964
1700022 Hellers, Ferdinand SWE 1969
1702092 Hellsten, Johan SWE 1975
2000318 Henley, Ron W USA 1956 i
716855 Hera, Imre Jr. HUN 1986
3500063 Hernandez Onna, Roman CUB 1949
3500373 Herrera, Irisberto ESP 1968
4600088 Hertneck, Gerald GER 1963
4600118 Hickl, Joerg GER 1965
1700812 Hillarp Persson, Tiger SWE 1970
2300044 Hjartarson, Johann ISL 1963
12400149 Hoang Thanh Trang HUN 1980 w
400076 Hodgson, Julian M ENG 1963 i
100340 Hoffman, Alejandro ARG 1966
1400100 Hoi, Carsten DEN 1957
4600029 Hort, Vlastimil GER 1944
708003 Horvath, Adam HUN 1981
700118 Horvath, Csaba HUN 1968
700061 Horvath, Jozsef HUN 1964
700843 Horvath, Peter HUN 1972
410608 Howell, David W L ENG 1990
400297 Howell, James C ENG 1967 i
300071 Hracek, Zbynek CZE 1970
4600010 Huebner, Robert Dr. GER 1948
14500060 Hulak, Krunoslav CRO 1951
2803828 Huzman, Alexander ISR 1962
13700952 Ibragimov, Alibek KAZ
4102878 Ibragimov, Ildar USA 1967
13400495 Ibrahimov, Rasul AZE 1981
13700650 Ibrayev, Nurlan KAZ 1977
4100972 Ikonnikov, Vyacheslav RUS 1966
900346 Ilincic, Zlatko SRB 1968
4156021 Iljin, Artem RUS 1987
4122178 Iljushin, Alexei RUS 1980
2200015 Illescas Cordoba, Miguel ESP 1965
4162722 Inarkiev, Ernesto RUS 1985
2900033 Inkiov, Ventzislav BUL 1956
1200089 Ionescu, Constantin ROU 1958
4100875 Ionov, Sergey RUS 1962
13900200 Iordachescu, Viorel MDA 1977
13700154 Irzhanov, Ruslan KAZ 1976 i
4120027 Iskusnyh, Sergei RUS 1974
1200372 Istratescu, Andrei ROU 1975
14200104 Iuldachev, Saidali UZB 1968
14100010 Ivanchuk, Vassily UKR 1969
912417 Ivanisevic, Ivan SRB 1977
2000202 Ivanov, Alexander USA 1956
4114906 Ivanov, Mikhail M RUS 1969
4101375 Ivanov, Sergey RUS 1961
900095 Ivanovic, Bozidar MNE 1949
900141 Ivkov, Borislav SRB 1933
2200260 Izeta Txabarri, Felix ESP 1961 i

There are a few GM with very long names(over about 25 characters?), in some cases that can prevent them being listed at all as a GM. Not sure what 'i' can means in final column, but the column is BORN flag. ChessCreator (talk) 22:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Quale has earlier suggested that we should add a link to the FIDE site. So perhaps we can add an extra column with the links above. Since both lists are in alphabetical order it should be doable (if we all help). But perhaps we can wait to see what others think. Can you tell us where you found this list on fide? Voorlandt (talk) 18:20, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

You can find on fide.com in menu, Rating, Download, then what is currently the top option

'Download full list of players (not rated included)(TXT) (Updated: 15 Mar 2008, Size: 3 141 338 bytes).' It's a zip file and contains about 100,000 players. ChessCreator (talk) 00:46, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GM date for Alexei Shirov

What is the correct date that Alexei Shirov received the GM title? The table in this article says 1990, but his biography says 1992. Quale (talk) 00:03, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

This says 1990. Another source 1992, although it looks like it originated from wiki. ChessCreator (talk) 00:20, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, that's a good find. I hoped that someone had a copy of Fire on Board. I found an image of the back cover which clearly says 1990. I'll change the date on his bio page. Quale (talk) 04:31, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] GM title date for Vladimir Malaniuk

The table on this page says 1988, but our Vladimir Malaniuk page says 1987. Maybe this is a difference between the year the title results were earned and the year that FIDE made the title award? Quale (talk)

[edit] Jonathan Penrose

Penrose was just removed from this article, saying that he is a GMC. However, chessgames.com claims he is an Emeritus GM [12]. See also [13]. I looked for the year title, but was not able to find it. Voorlandt (talk) 07:53, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

That was me. He should probably be put back on the list and have Category:Chess grandmasters added back to Jonathan Penrose. His GME title must have been after 1986 (it isn't in Gaige), but I would say he's certainly deserving. Quale (talk) 08:17, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
He's definitely a GM: http://www.fide.com/ratings/card.phtml?event=400360. Thanks for catching my mistake – I should have checked. I reverted the edit. When we find hist title date we can add it. Quale (talk) 08:23, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Aron Nimzowitsch

Is Nimzowitsch a GM? Seems there was a 1929 essay by Nimzowitsch called 'How I became a Grandmaster' which somewhat implies he was. However the Aron Nimzowitsch article does NOT say he was. Which leave things unclear.
'A.N.’s least known work is the relatively short essay “How I became a Grandmaster”, which appeared in Russian in 1929.' ChessCreator (talk) 20:23, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lars Karlsson

I'm guessing not Lars Karlsson the handball player. ChessCreator (talk) 01:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

|Lars Karlsson (chess player) added. ChessCreator (talk) 01:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Titles vs Year, a graph

This is a graph made from the info in this article. We are pretty complete 1950-1960 and 2002,2003,2004,2006,2007. Quite a few are possible missing from 1965-1970, 1981,2000,2001 and 2005. Anyway, this graph isn't looking good, without too much effort it follows an exponential curve! I think once finished, this graph could be nice addition the GM article, or would that qualify as OR? Voorlandt (talk) 17:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a great graph, and I think that even addition of missing years (we are actually complete 1950–1968 since Sunnucks has a complete list of awards by year) won't change the overall shape. Unfortunately the graph confirms our worst fears—FIDE has been minting new GMs by the truckload since 2000. I don't know if using it in an article would constitute WP:OR. It is based directly on verifiable data which should be OK, but any interpretation of what it means (including the exponential fit I suppose) needs a WP:RS source. It is nice to know that barring misfortune I should live to see FIDE award more than one GM title a day in 20 or 30 years. The number of new GMs from 2007 is just stunning. Quale (talk) 06:54, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. 2007 was an exceptional year, also due to the apparent large amount of players who where awarded the gm title conditionally in preceding years. I also should have mentioned that I didn't include 1914 and 1950 in the graph, in order not to ruin the fit. Did you check 1950–1968 from Sunnucks? From the history it seems nobody entered them explicitly. About 300 players are missing a title year now. I am confident we can find the title year for the majority of them. Do you know of any other written sources with list of title years? One possible source might be the FIDE rating lists, eg from [14]:

(Inserted here out of date sequence as a direct reply to a question): I did check against Sunnucks, and you had already entered the title years for all GMs from 1950–1968. All the entries agreed; I found no discrepancies. I probably should have said something here on Talk, because with no changes there was no edit summary to indicate I had done the check. Something I should have done but will do now is check the other way—I went through Sunnucks' list by year and checked the entries against your table, I should also have sorted the GM list by title year and checked against Sunnucks to make sure we don't have any extras. ... Just did this, we are complete with no extras through 1968. As for other sources, Gaige's Chess Personalia should be nearly complete for GMs earning titles on or before 1986. I've gone through A-G adding title years from Gaige. I will pick up at H and try to get the rest. This will leave our toughest gap from 1986–2001 where we don't have any complete sources at all. Ulimately we should probably bite the bullet and just contact FIDE to see if they can help. Quale (talk) 17:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Grechihin's record for becoming a grandmaster turns out to be 60. Johan Hut found that he was an IM on FIDE's rating list of 1 January 1998, and a GM on the list for 1 July 1998.

So having the FIDE rating lists (say top 1000) from the different years would be a great help. Does anyone know if and where they are available? Voorlandt (talk) 08:09, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

According to the Olimpbase editor (see current homepage intro), benoni.de provides ratings back to 1990, although I havn't tried to use it myself - [15] Brittle heaven (talk) 14:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that the basic graph is OR since the data comes from reliable sources. It just presents that data in a different format. The extrapolation to exponential growth probably is OR, unless someone has stated that somewhere. Bubba73 (talk), 16:22, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree on the OR interpretation of Quale and Bubba, but we should only post the graph if we have an (almost) complete list of title years. benoni.de does provide rating data, but it doesn't list the title next to each rating. So I don't think it is useful here. A similar site, is http://chess.vrsac.com/ , it has very good dob info and rating graphs also back to 1990. Voorlandt (talk) 17:06, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice graph and hope that a variation of it can be used in some way. Just showing Gm titles by year would be good information. ChessCreator (talk) 21:06, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] page loads slowly?

The article page seems to load slowly. Could the flags be slowing it down? I thjink the flags could be omitted, and also link only the first use of a country name. Bubba73 (talk), 16:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I did one test edit without flag templates, and links. It doesn't seem to load much faster, try [16]. My guess is that most time is spend on building the sortable table (which requires java/script) together with the actual loading of the page (80K).Voorlandt (talk) 17:02, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is probably the sorting that makes it slow. Javascript executes very slowly, but I do like that sorting feature. Bubba73 (talk), 17:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

It takes about 8 seconds to sort, so that is slowing it down. I don't know if it is possible, but if you can tell the wikitable to NOT sort until someone clicks to sort it, and enter the names in alphabetical order, that would mean that it wouldn't have to sort initially. Failing that, putting the names in alphabetical order might speed up the initial sort. Bubba73 (talk), 20:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't find this page slow, the top of the page appears pretty quick and while it takes about 8 seconds to fully load, anyone viewing for the first time would most like take a while before scrolling down. ChessCreator (talk) 21:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I just tested it twice and it took about 20 and 26 seconds (resp) to load. Bubba73 (talk), 21:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

If removing the flag noticeably helps the speed loading then I'd be in favour of it's removal. The flag can be a maintenance issue anyway as with a list this size changes to countries might occur quite often. ChessCreator (talk) 21:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Now I don't think it is the flag, it is the sorting that takes so long. Bubba73 (talk), 22:33, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I asked about the sorting method, and they said that it can depend on the browser. This page is slow in IE 7 but fast enough in Mozilla Firefox. Bubba73 (talk), 23:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Firefox has a faster Javascript implementation than IE, and supposedly Javascript will get even faster in Firefox 3, due shortly. I don't know if that will help on this page. Quale (talk) 23:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Alexander Khasin

There may be a birth date discrepancy for Alexander Khasin. We have 1951.4.29, but Gaige's Chess Personalia has "Khasin, Alexander Sholomovich, Soviet Union, born 16-06-1951, ~~IM 1964, GMC 1973~~". I'm not sure if this is the same person, and even if it is Gaige is outstanding but not infallible. (We have corrected a couple of dates from Gaige in our articles already.) Quale (talk) 18:43, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for checking things. These kind of lists are extremely prone to errors, and it is good to have extra sources. I did some googling, and could only find 1951.4.29 (Nicbase, Bidmonfa, Bill Wall, chess.vrac.com). From what I could find it is the same player, eg from nicbase: Alexander Sholomovich Khasin FIDE number 4101189Birthdate 29-4-1951 Either they all copied from each other, or else the info in Gaige is wrong. Voorlandt (talk) 19:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The confusion may not end there either, as Kazić (International Championship Chess, Batsford, 1974) gives an Abram Khasin b. 15.2.1923 with an IM title obtained in ... yes you've guessed it ... 1964. The chances of there being two A. Khasin's obtaining IM titles in 1964 will be slim. Kazić, a FIDE official whose book is endorsed by Euwe (FIDE President at the time) would have worked directly from FIDE's records. Having said that, we all know what a shambles FIDE's records can be, and no-one is immune to the odd typo or mistaken translation. Brittle heaven (talk) 23:07, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I also meant to add that the Gaige info seems highly dubious - I don't think IM titles were achievable by 12/13 year olds in those days. Brittle heaven (talk) 23:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Oops, not Gaige's fault. Quale is extremely fallible. The IM and GMC dates are for the adjacent entry "Khasin, Abram Iosifovich, 15-02-1923 Zaporozhe, Soviet Union". That explains Voorlandt's finding. The Alexander Sholomovich Khasin entry just has the birth date 16-06-1951 and the comment Elo: 2350+. The birth date discrepancy remains but I introduced the title dates by mistake. Sorry. Quale (talk) 23:55, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] FIDE's website sucks

FIDE overwrote/reused the url for the old 1st quarter Presidential Board Meeting page (found here in a google cache) with the 2nd quarter Presidential Board Meeting. I added a link to the 2nd quarter page in the article references, only to discover that the 1st quarter page added a couple weeks ago had been the same. We need to figure out what to do about this. Maybe complain to the FIDE webmaster. Quale (talk) 19:20, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I found something quite useful. This website http://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/ratings/ has all the ratings per year, starting from 1971 to the year 2000 in a downloadable txt! Unfortunately, only the ratings from 1999 onwards have a grandmaster flag. The site refers to fide.com for the other rating list, and I was surprised to find them there!

Together with the 1999 and 2000 file from mark-weeks, these lists allow us to fill in all missing gaps and complete 2000-2008. (including the precise year for all the conditionally awarded titles). We have 300 missing title years now, and I suspect we can complete at least half of those by comparing these rating lists. Voorlandt (talk) 19:18, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok there is one problem with comparing the january lists. Previously I put all players with no title on jan 1 YYYY-1, but a title on jan YYYY, as having achieved the title in year YYYY-1. However, if the player gets a conditional title (on rating), and that player only achieves 2500 rating on the january list, the title should be YYYY. I have corrected those instances now. I will do some more edits now (using all 4 quarters, and in case the title changes OCT-JAN, I will look at the rating. If a rating >2500 was achieved before, then the title year is YYYY-1, otherwise YYYY. Voorlandt (talk) 19:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Krunoslav Hulak

The FIDE Yearbook 1976/7 shows his GM title awarded at the Haifa Congress (held 29.10.76 - 9.11.76) - not in 1975, as shown in the article. I think this may need changing unless there is any conflicting evidence? Brittle heaven (talk) 21:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, as no objections, I've changed it to '76. Brittle heaven (talk) 21:59, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Flags?

I think it might be better if the article didn't have the flags. I don't think they help. But see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (flags). Bubba73 (talk), 22:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I've looked at WP:MOSFLAG—is there anything in particular on that page that you think is important here? Quale (talk) 23:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I think it says to not overuse them. I asked here: #Slow - what method? to see if the sorting was slowing the page down. It was recomended over there. Bubba73 (talk), 23:45, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, although that alone isn't enough to provide much guidance. It says not to use them in prose, not to use them to replace text, and not to use them for places of birth or death. Many wikipedians dislike flags and would like to see them all go away, or almost all. For them, a single flag on a page is overuse. Other wikipedians like flags. Probably most editors are somewhere in between. Voorlandt did version of the page without flags. I tried it and didn't find any real obvious improvement in performance (loading or sorting). You can try it out to see if it helps for you. There is a link above in the very first section that you can use to find an unflagged version. If experiments show that removing the flags helps, that would be a good reason to make the change. Quale (talk) 00:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

On IE7, the flagless version comes up in about 8 seconds for me, versus about 20 for the regular article. At 20 seconds, a person gets to wondering if the Internet locked up. I'm using a cable modem, 6 megabits/second download.

I don't think the flags help this article. Bubba73 (talk), 00:23, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I think flags should be expanded or abolished. To given an example, someone is born in Ukraine then part of USSR, becomes a GM while in USSR, plays chess for the USSR national team, later plays for former soviet republic(i.e Ukraine) and then after giving up chess moves out and becomes citizen of another western country (i.e Spain). What flag do you put? Spain is just misleading as it has nothing to do with the chess career. Use of just USSR or Ukraine does not give full picture. ChessCreator (talk) 23:36, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

On Bubba73's point, I tried it again also, and I must have done a slipshod job testing it before because my results are similar to his: with Firefox 2 about 20 seconds to load with flags, 10 seconds without. Personally I'm willing to put up with this because like the color they add to what is otherwise a rather dull looking table, but I understand the desire to make the page load more quickly and I won't make a fuss if the majority would like to remove the flags. (An 8 second page load is already so slow that the difference between 8s and 20s means less to me than would the difference between a 2s page load and 5s, if that makes any sense.) On ChessCreator's point, I agree that we need to handle the countries in a more sophisticated way, but I think we want to do that regardless of whether we keep the flags or remove them. I think we really want to keep at least the countries even if we ditch the flags, but we may need to allow two or three countries to be given. The first country would be the one in which the player earned the GM title. Subsequent countries would be other federations played for, so we would not have "Robert J. Fischer United States / Iceland". I guess this might give us "Roman Dzindzichashvili Israel / United States" which would look a little odd. I guess this needs careful consideration. Quale (talk) 01:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm in favor of getting rid of the flags. I don't think they add anything to this article, and if someone does want to see what the country's flag is, they can click on the country. As far as taking 20 seconds to load - I that is clearly too long. IF a page takes that long then I get to wondering if the page is down (404 error), etc. Bubba73 (talk), 03:03, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I personally don't mind too much having the flags removed. Although lately this page is loading pretty fast on my comp (2-3sec). It used to be slower (but never 20 sec though), perhaps my computer has part of it in memory? In any case, if the flags are replaced, the countries should be written out in full and each of them fully linked (linking only one, it would turn up in a random position after sorting). If someone undertakes this, beware of copy past from a text editor, as my text editor removes some of the accents! Voorlandt (talk) 21:48, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lead

List requires a lead. WP:LEAD, would suggest that it clarifies what the definition of a Grandmaster is for use in this list.

Thanks whoever did it. ChessCreator (talk) 01:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Date sorts

Right now sorting on the date columns doesn't work right because we omit the leading zeros in the month and day fields. There are a couple of templates that can be used for date sorts (Template:dts and Template:dts2), but after taking a look I wasn't real keen on either of them as they force a default dd mm yyyy format if you don't have a date preference set. On the plus side, they do respect the user date preference if set. (Or they say they do. I don't have a date pref set and I didn't test it.) Another way to fix the date sorts would be to add the leading zeros. Any thoughts? Quale (talk) 06:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I would prefer to have zeros inserted (shouldn't be too hard, find and replace eg '.1.' by '.01.' etc), since more templates will make the page even slower to load. Voorlandt (talk) 16:49, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

That's logical. I made the edit. (At one time there was a limit on the number of templates that would work on a single page. That limit was either eliminated or greatly increased. I think this page would have exceeded it we had had it at that time.) Quale (talk) 23:52, 17 April 2008 (UTC)