Talk:List of castles in France

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[edit] Completing the list

I am starting to complete the list with 'real' castles which completely excludes the wine houses that are called 'chateau' but includes palaces and some old forts. Those that I want to add include Vaux-le-Vicomte and Fontainebleau which are worth considering. Jean Fex (talk) 22:18, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Please be careful. This list is specifically about castles and not buildings called château. As the introduction to the page says:

"The French word château has a wider meaning than the English castle: it includes architectural entities that are properly called palaces, mansions or vineyards in English. This list focuses primarily on architectural entities that may be properly termed castle or fortress (French: château-fort), and excludes entities not built around a substantial older castle that is still evident."

So, palaces, including Vaux-le-Vicomte and Château de Fontainebleau, do not belong here. By all means, if you can find some genuine castles that are not listed, please add them, write the articles if they don't exist, translate them from French Wikipedia if you can, but do not add palaces, mansions, etc to this list. Emeraude (talk) 22:34, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

In fact, having just looked at your user page, you would seem to be linguistically ideally skilled to work on translating some of the articles that so far only exist in French. Emeraude (talk) 22:36, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
No problem, I see what you mean. I'll study the English concept of castle more deeply before I come back to this article and I'll have my conclusions validated before do any update to this list. There is an article that lists palaces around the world, I'll put these specific ones there. Any help on the concept of castle is welcome. In the mean time, I'll start with translating and creating the missing ones and completing others. This list should be safe with me. Jean Fex (talk) 16:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that. If it helps, the English language meaning of castle is usually a military or defensive structure from the middle ages. There are examples that break the rule, so in this list you will see places that, today, have little resemblance to a castle but have been developed from them. (Chateau d'Amboise for example - you can still see the origins.) And there are places in English called 'castle' that are not and never have been (for example, Balmoral Castle and Wentworth Castle in Britain) but the owners thought the name was good! Any help with translating articles is much appreciated - I have already translated several dozen but my knowledge of French sometimes has difficulty with obscure architectural terms. The articles that need work are the ones in italics in the list. Emeraude (talk) 20:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
In the mean time, I made a little study about the term castle. It mostly correspond to château-fort in French. In my own words, I define it as a strong, large and old building that served as the residence of a ruler and as a refuge for his people against attacks using fortifications like bastions, crenelated walls and turrets. I see that in the list, we include ruins of important ones and also famous ones that have almost no remains like the Louvre and the Bastille. I have started looking for French castles that would not be in the list. So far, I found the castle of Nangis whose remains now house the city hall. I wrote to the city for more information. I am wondering if the fr:Tour César in the fortified city of Provins in the Seine et Marne department should be in the list since the tower was not a residence. There is also a château in fr:Vigny (Val-d'Oise) that has the architecture style of a castle that I also wonder if we should include. Jean Fex (talk) 20:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, "château-fort" is a better description in French, or "château-feodal". Castles were not always residences for rulers though: most of the castles built by Edward I in North Wales were occupied by a military commander and a very small group of soldiers. Their purpose was to control the population, not to protect them. (See, for example, Harlech, Criccieth).
The French Ministry of Culture has a useful website - a database of all monuments historiques which provides much useful information and has been a source for most of the articles I have written. Unfortunately, it doesn't list a castle at Nangis and the French Wikipedia article (fr:Nangis) does not mention a castle either. Perhaps it is in a neighbouring commune? The Tour César at Provins is listed, but with the name "Château de la Reine Blanche". It does seem to be a suitable castle. Vigny in pictures looks very Renaissance, though it does seem that it could perhaps be developed from a real castle. Emeraude (talk) 22:43, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] For Seine et Marne (77)

I plan to add the following castles in the Seine et Marne list of the Ile de France region :

  • "Château de Moret" at Moret-sur-Loing, "Château de Montaiguillon" (ruins) at Louan-Villegruis-Fontaine and "Château de Diant" at Diant that are "châteaux-forts" historical monuments according to the French Ministry of Culture.
  • "Château de Nantouillet" at Nantouillet, "Château de Lagrange-Bléneau" at Courpalay, "Château de la Reine Blanche" at Provins and "Château du Houssoy at Crouy-sur-Ourcq that are "châteaux" historical monuments according to the French Ministry of Culture with good pictures. The 2nd and 3rd one are also in the "ABC des châteaux-forts" list.
  • "Château de Nangis" has "heritage" pictures of it in the IMAGES database of the French Ministry of Culture.

Jean Fex (talk) 12:39, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

  • Excellent work. Well done. You might find it useful to use one of the excisting castle pages to get the layout for "See also", References", "External links" and "Sources". If you want any help, let me know. (I've added the translation tag for the page you made for Nangis.) Emeraude (talk) 08:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you Emeraude, especially for the impovement of the "English" of the Château de Nangis page. It was a lot of work to come up with this small article, getting the rights, the documentation and so on. Jean Fex (talk) 17:45, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
A pleasure. You're welcome. Emeraude (talk) 09:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 4 Dec 2006

I have removed most of the entries from this list because, quite simply, they are not castles. The French word château is used in France to cover many types of building, including what in English we would recognise as a castle, but also 'palace', 'stately home', or large country house. Most vineyards are called Chateau de..., but most are simply farm buildings.

I have kept those chateaux that are built around what is recognisably a proper castle (such as Amboise) and added a large number of 'real' castles. In French, these are often distinguished with the phrase château-fort. I will add more as time permits, but few have English Wikipedia articles, so I will also be adding links to French Wikipedia where these exist. In the longer term, I may get round to translating some of the French articles.

Any help with these tasks - I've begun to see how enormous it is - is most welcome. Readers of French may like to search French Wikipedia for further entries. Emeraude 23:13, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Organisation of this list

Would it perhaps make more sense to group the castles geographically? By région, then by départment, then by commune/town? — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 17:48, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

A good point. I would find it useful if I were looking for a castle, but then I am very knowledgable about French geography. I'm not sure how far the average user of Wikipedia would find it useful. For example, if someone found out that a certain castle was used as a film location, they would come looking for the name of the castle, or even type it in directly. I am never happy with lists in Wikipedia, because I think that unless every possible item is included then it is not really helpful. (For example, a list of the United States with all 50 states listed is useful. A list of American towns with 50 listed is not..). I seem to have taken over this list because when I first came across it there were articles listed that were not castles (including a modern vineyard) and not even in France!: the problem with translating the French word cháteau into English. From that, I went on to adding articles or translating them from French Wikipedia.

I think that what would be really useful would be to have meaningful Categories, so that castles, palaces, country houses, vineyards are distinct. That, however, is a big job. In the meantime, perhaps we should continue with this list as it is and consider adding Department/Region after the castle name. Would that make it more user-friendly?

By the way, thanks for your efforts in adding more articles and I hope you don't mind that I have edited a few of your works. Emeraude 21:13, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I am envisioning something like fr:Liste des châteaux français par régions. Actually, as you probably already know, the French WP has several such lists linked from fr:Liste des châteaux français. Would simply adopting that schema be overkill for the English WP? Incidentally, thanks for correcting my mistakes. My French is extremely weak, as should be obvious. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 13:32, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the French wiki may give a way to fo forward, but I still think that without a good knowledge of French regional geography it would not help most users. I am going to be away from wiki for a week or two (in France actually), so let us see if some sensible way to organise it comes along.

Your translations are actually very good. There is a lot of specialist vocabulary that is difficult whether in French or English, so we do need to help each other out. A lot of the words are not in my French-English dictionary, and I sometimes don't even understand the English! The important thing is to get the articles translated - other editors can always improve on them later. Emeraude 19:50, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

On further thought, it may be useful to organise the page by département. I thinkit will work. I have been looking at the List of castles in England page which lists castles by county. Seems OK. Emeraude

I've done it, but I'm still not certain. To see what I have done, go to my temporary page User:Emeraude/Castles. I will be away for two weeks. If comments are favourable, I will change this page when I get back. It will be necessary, I think, to move the contents to the right of the page, but I do not know how. Emeraude

To put the content on the right side of the page, add {{TOCright}} in the beginning of the article. I can find the departement for the remaining castles. • M-le-mot-dit 11:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Château d'Aguilar : Aude
  • Château de Durban-Corbières : Aude
  • Château de Latour-sur-Sorgues : Vaucluse
  • Château de Peyrelade : Aveyron
  • Château du Plessis Josso : Morbihan
  • Chateau de Saint Germain - Saint-Germain-Beaupré ? : Creuse
  • Château de Spesbourg : Bas-Rhin
  • Château de Taurines : Aveyron
  • Château de Valon : Aveyron
  • Château de Wildenstein : Haut-Rhin
M-le-mot-dit 11:39, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

Merci bien. I have incorporated this into the trial page. Also, link there to the equivalent French page which includes castles (and some palaces etc) not in the English list. No more from me now for a weeks or two - off on holiday. Emeraude 13:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)

I've also made a prototype. I think that sections for regions with maps would help to roughly locate a departement.
See the page User:M-le-mot-dit/draft. • M-le-mot-dit 22:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
To: User:M-le-mot-dit, User:Kaustuv, User:SlaveToTheWage, Talk:List of castles in France#Organisation of this list, Wikipedia talk:France-related topics notice board#List of castles in France - request for suggestions
List of castles in France: I have looked at the users' suggestions and comments and have made a new draft that I think could be the way forward. It uses the basic format drafted by User:M-le-mot-dit and the sort of layour used in the French Wiki.
My proposal, with notes and explanation is at User:Emeraude/Castles2.
For information, other versions are:
What do you think? Emeraude 14:10, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infoboxes

Not sure where best to place this comment. I've taken a brief look through all these castle pages, and was struck by how haphazardly the standard information is scattered in the articles. I suggest a bit of bureaucracy to tame the articles: {{User:Kaustuv/ip/Infobox Château}}. It is only the barest of skeletons at the moment, and I'd appreciate any comments. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 10:00, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

It could be a quick way to have stubs for missing castles, and would help to have an idea of its location.
I'd prefer a smaller map (i.e. 150px) and to use a map highlighting the department. "Built" may refer to an historical period like "Medieval" or a more precise time, for example "15th century", or "before 1440"?
You may suggest your idea to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Castles. The existing {{infobox castle}} has too many historical informations that should be in the article itself, not in an infobox. It't not very attractive when the infobox in longer than the article. — M-le-mot-dit 11:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC) —

On further contemplation, this infobox appears unnecessary. Better to lay out the information in the lead paragraph, organised in a standard way. — Kaustuv Chaudhuri 15:13, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree (though there are thousands of articles!). The infobox does not add a great deal to the clarity of the articles. Emeraude 10:16, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New version of this page

Following discussion of various drafts to improve this page, I think the consensus is now that we make the change. I have therefore done so. Thanks you to everyone for taking part. Improvements may still be needed - any comments gratefully received. Emeraude 13:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Some notes:
  • Château de Ventadour is duplicated: once under Corrèze and again under Ardèche.
  • Non-castle articles such as Fougères are linked, obscuring the lack of the article.
  • Exhortations to the reader are against proper style per the avoid self references guideline.
  • Section headings should not be linked per the style manual. I've changed them to use the {{main}} template.
  • I changed the heavy bullets to the recommended {{·}} template.
— Kaustuv CHAUDHURI 18:48, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that.

  • Ventadour is Corrèze - corrected.
  • Articles such as Fougères are linked because they do contain a sizeable section on the releveant castle. Perhaps we need to bookmark exactly where in the article e.g. Fougères#Sights but it does at least log their existence and provide scope for a future separate article.
  • You are quite right about exhortations to the reader - my fault. Perhaps a request in the talk page?
  • Section headings/list separators: Both new ideas to me, so thanks for correcting them. Emeraude 19:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be some inconsistency in eliding the "château de" prefix:

  • For "l'Emperi" we leave the "le(s)" alone, but for "l'Île d'Yeu" and "des Adhémar" we snip it.
  • For most castles we snip the "de", but not for "d'If".
  • Both the article and the list entry for Château d'Etelan are strange.

— Kaustuv CHAUDHURI 22:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Preload

To quickly preload a standard template for a castle article, you can stick a &preload=User:Kaustuv/ip/château at the end. See, for example, a preloaded Château d'Example. Would it be worth adding these to all the currently non-existing articles? — Kaustuv CHAUDHURI 14:13, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I had a similar idea to make such a template for my own use, kept on my PC for when I create new pages, so thanks for that. Are you suggesting that the currently non-existing articles should be created and just this template should be put in them? I am not sure that Wikipedia editors would be happy about dozens of otherwise blank articles actually being created. Wouldn't people want to delete them? If it's possible, let's do it.

(I also have strange feelings about Château d'Etelan, especially as every edit is by User:Etelan.) Emeraude 14:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC) Etalan: I've searched on www.google.fr and found several sites which confirm the article details, including this which says "Il ne reste de la construction médiévale qu’une cave, un mur d’enceinte et la maison des gardes datée de 1350" and the [Min. of Culture site] which says pretty much the same. This confirms what it said in the artice. So, parts of the original castle are still there and visible so I suppose it should stay on the list. However, I will remove the image as it breaks up the page. Emeraude

No, sorry, I meant that we would just add links such as this one that anyone may use to start off with a readymade framework. The article actually will not be created until the user saves the page. Regarding the Etelan issue, there is fr:Château d'Ételan. Looks like the page was poorly named. I've moved it to Château d'Ételan. — Kaustuv CHAUDHURI 14:55, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, understood now. Regarding de, des, le " etc. Yes, we should be consistent. I must cinfess to having rushed through shortening the names when I deleted Château de..., so feel free to make any corrections. I think I might prefer "des Adhémar", since it refers to members of the owning family, not a place as is usual, but I'm not too bothered about it. Emeraude 15:26, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Push to FL

Let's get this to a featured list level. This could be the first grand collaboration of the new WikiProject France. — Kaustuv CHAUDHURI 19:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] More articles?

I've gone through the French WIkipedia lists of Châteaux and made a list of places mentioned there that have no article in the English Wikipedia or no link from this page. Of course, not all will be castles as we understand the word, but there is scope for an enlargement of this page. You can see the list at User:Emeraude/To Do - any help in moving appropriate items from that list to this one will be much appreciated. Equally, you can delete items if they are not castles. I intend to spend as much time as I can in getting French articles translated to English.

I've also found an interesting website from the French Ministry of Culture [1] where you can search by department and town for historic monuments and bring up a page with details of the castle's listing in official records. This can then be used as a source when writing articles and linked to from articles. (See Château de Dieppe for an example.) Emeraude 22:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC)