Talk:List of cardinals

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Contents

[edit] Capitalization of "Cardinal"

Should the "C" be capitalized? Tuf-Kat 07:21, Nov 27, 2003 (UTC)

Yes. RickK 07:24, 27 Nov 2003 (UTC)
No way; cardinal is a common noun, not a proper noun.
John Cardinal Smith is the proper name of a person, so the names and titles that are part of it are capitalized.
The College of Cardinals is the proper name of a body, so the nouns in it are capitalized.
Arguably, when used a noun of direct address, by someone too rude or ignorant to look up which "Your XYZ-ness" applies, it is short for the full proper name: "Oh, Cardinal, you left this crozier in the closet!"
But "John Cardinal Smith has been a cardinal for years, and has repeatedly spoken on behalf of the College of Cardinals, which is the body consisting of all current cardinals."
(It is possible that the style sheet of the Vatican PR office says that cardinal with a small C always means a bird, but if so, they are writing in a private language. They don't make the rules for English, which is used here.)
--Jerzy 21:00, 2004 Jan 28 (UTC)

[edit] Living/deceased

I suggest that this listing might be more helpful if broken up between living and deceased Cardinals. --Mark Delano

[edit] Date of birth/death

I would like to see the listing have the dob/dod of the Cardinals so that we know if they are still living or have passed. It might also be helpful to include what title they carried to elevate them to 'notable'.

--Jon Cates 13:24, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Criteria

This list needs to be less inclusive than Category:Cardinals to be independently useful.It should include only cardinals who (while never Pope) held important offices or were particularly famous.Let's not see it grow haphazardly...L.E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2 04:41, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I think it should list cardinals about whom there is a Wikipedia article. I don't think a Wikipedia article is generally created about a cardinal unless the cardinal is in some way notable. Michael Hardy 20:11, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Given that the College of Cardinals article has links for articles for every living Cardinal (implicitly inviting articles to be written about them) I don't see such an implication.I deliberately didn't make the names links when I added a list of Deans to the Dean of the College of Cardinals article even though incumbents of that office are likelier to be "notable" than are Cardinals as a whole.I think the List of Notable Cardinals should be for selected Cardinals who have articles in Wikipedia,while the Category of Cardinals should include all of them.--L.E./12.144.5.2 21:09, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] excess use of the word "Cardinal"

Since this is the list of cardinals, I really don't see the point in using the form "First name Cardinal Last name" in every single entry. They should all be pipe-linked out. --Joy [shallot] 23:28, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Unilateral change in the purpose of this list

User:Bender235 changed this on April 6th to a list of cardinals living now. Where are the others? Michael Hardy 00:21, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Naming convention

Please stop (whoever is behind this) with this ludicrous nonsense of "NAME Cardinal SURNAME". This is a style nobody has used since the middle ages. The Vatican itself is not using it, just run a search on vatican.va. It's frankly irritating. --Orzetto 10:03, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Wrong in every single way. Firstly it is WP policy. Secondly it is still official Vatican Policy. Thirdly it was the only way cardinals were ever referred to until 1965, not the middle ages. Fourthly the reason WP uses that form is because it is the only way WP can list all cardinals, as many mediaeval cardinals' first names have long since been forgotten. We couldn't just list them as surname alone. Fifthly it keeps the words cardinal and <surname> together and so eases google searches. Sixthly, many cardinals until relatively recent times used different cardinalate names to their personal names. Their personal names are obscure. They are only known as Cardinal x. So again, to enable google searches and titling WP has to use the word that is associated with their surname, which is cardinal. That is policy. That is necessity. The issue is workability, not whether you are irritated. Your irritation is of no relevance. FearÉIREANN\(caint) 20:12, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

On the contrary, Orzetto is right in every single way. Firstly, "NAME SURNAME" is now WP policy. Secondly, as Orzetto rightly said, the "NAME Cardinal SURNAME" style is not (and never was) official Vatican policy for referring to cardinals, but only for signatures. Thirdly, cardinals were referred to as "Cardinal NAME SURNAME" long before 1965 - at least as far back as 1848 - and this style may very well have preceded the appearance in English of the "NAME Cardinal SURNAME" style, which has won no foothold whatever in Italian, the present day-by-day language in the Vatican. Fourthly, a reason for WP to use "NAME SURNAME" and not "NAME Cardinal SURNAME" is that mediaeval cardinals had no surname, and if their place of origin is used in place of a surname (e.g. Humbert of Mourmoutiers), you can say "NAME of PLACE" (or, for that matter, "Cardinal NAME of PLACE", but you cannot say "NAME Cardinal of PLACE". Fifthly, "NAME Cardinal SURNAME" separates NAME from SURNAME, and is less useful as a search string for Googling, especially since the form "Cardinal NAME SURNAME" is the usual order in news items. Most important, since the relative correctness of "NAME Cardinal SURNAME" and "Cardinal NAME SURNAME" is in dispute, Wikipedia's basic NPOV policy does not allow either to be imposed, when the neutral "NAME SURNAME" is available. "NAME SURNAME" is policy. That is necessity. The issue is workability and simplicity, not primarily whether anyone is irritated. Anyone's irritation is of some, but insufficient, relevance. Lima 18:38, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cardinals by Pope

I'm going to start creating lists of Cardinals by original Papal appointment, so as we have a full list, and not just Cardinals in disparate categories. Gareth E Kegg 21:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)