Talk:List of Ukrainian Americans

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’== Andy Warhol ==

Ghirla asked elsewhere whether Andy Warhol should be added here. I'm not sure: was he born in the USA or Europe? Were his parents from the territory of modern Ukraine or Slovakia? (I presume they were Austro-Hungarian Ruthenian immigrants to the USA) Do any Ukrainians or Ukrainian groups claim him as their own?

If it is a debatable fact, then I would include him, along with a note indicating his Rusyn background, and leave the question of whether Rusyn is Ukrainian for discussion elsewhere. —Michael Z. 2006-02-28 00:21 Z

Quoting from "Andy Warhol 1928-1987: Commerce into Art (Basic Art)" [1]:
  • "Forest City, Pennsylvania, the son of miner and construction worker Ondrej Warhola and his wife Julia. In 1912 his father had emigrated from Czechoslovakia to the United States, his wife following nine years later."

JackO'Lantern 00:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Funny thing to read in a book revised in 2001. There was no Czechoslovakia before 1918, nor after 1993—I suspect they came from the Austro-Hungarian province of Carpathian Ruthenia, which is currently divided between Slovakia and Ukraine.
If Ondrej was an uneducated labourer, he would may have referred to himself as a Rusyn, and not had much political awareness, including issues of what is Rusyn vs. Ukrainian. Andy Warhol may not have cared much either. —Michael Z. 2006-02-28 02:19 Z
Come to think of it, any Ukrainian immigrant from Austro-Hungary would have had "Ruthenian" on his passport. I say include AW on this list, pending any evidence that he doesn't belong. —Michael Z. 2006-02-28 02:57 Z
Here is that evidence:(especially the last part)
  • "coal mines, so I never saw him very much. My mother would read to me in her thick Czechoslovakian accent as best she could... all I can remember, really, are the long walks to school, through the Czech ghetto with the babushkas and overalls on the clotheslines, in McKeesport , Pennsylvania" [2]
  • "And I guess maybe I'm not really Czech, because I didn't understand it when they were talking. " [3]
  • But here's something more in depth: "It was in such a village of wooden cottages and dirt streets, hidden in the heavily forested mountain slopes, called Mikova, that Andy's parents were born: his father, Ondrej (Andrew) Warhola, on November 28, 1886; his mother, Julia Zavacky, on November 17, 1892. Like 90 percent of the Ruthenians, the Warholas and Zavackys were farmers and shepherds, working the ... Indeed, the Ruthenians were obsessed with eggs... According to several members of the Zavacky family, one of Julia's grandmothers was Jewish. This was highly unusual in a part of the world where anti-Semitism was almost built into the social structure. Every village had its one Jewish family, who collected the landlord's share of the peasants' produce... When Odrej was eighteen or nineteen, he left for America, probably walking across Europe to a port like Hamburg or Amsterdam, like tens of thousands of other Ruthenian boys. In fact, by the turn of the century, The Ruthenian emigration was so over-whelming that the sagging Austro-Hungarian empire was worried about the dangerous depopulation of this border province. Two or three years later, in 1909, Ondrej was back in Mikova, rich by Ruthenian standards, from woking in the coal mines of Pennsylvania. Blond, muscular, and handsome, he proposed to Julia. Years later, in a 1966 Esquire interview she did behind Andy's back....Most Ruthenian-americans seem to define their nationality in engatives: "We're not Polish. We're not Hungarian. We're not Slovak. We're not Ukrainian." When I asked the Warhola brothers what nationality they considered themselves when they were growing up, John without hesitation said, "Always Slovak." [4]

JackO'Lantern 03:10, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

A difficult case. Mainly because this is currently a political football field for discussion.
There is a museum dedicated to him in the COUNTRY of Slovakia, and it is from this part of the world that his forefathers come from. When his forefathers left this area it was part of Austria-Hungary. It changed hands numerous times.
However in Slovakia there is a sizable group of people - a mini ethnic group who associate themselves with the Rusyns, Lemkos, Rusnaks and sometimes Ukrainian. They have been kicked around a lot. They speak a dialect of Ukrainian ie an eastern Slavic language which is different from the Western Slavic language of Slovak. Ukraine has only had its independence for some 17 years. It was divided up between its neighbours. Its political borders do not correspond with the ethnic borders of where the Ukrainians live. Currently it doesn't include this enclave. The people in his enclave use a version of Eastern Slavonic which has included many aspects of their neighbours primarilly Polish, Hungarian and Slovak. In recent times there has been a movement to develope a seperate ethnic identity for these people. Thus the conflict between a Rusyn/ Ukrainian identity.
In my opinion he was ETHNICALLY a Rusyn-Ukrainian. Definitely more Rusyn than Ukrainian. He attended a Greek-Catholic Church and paid for his brother to complete studies in a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Seminary and become a priest. He is buried in a Ukrainian Greek-Catholic cemetery. He was very pious and regularly attended a Ukrainian Greek-Catholic church in New York.
Recently Paul Magocsi published an interesting book - People without a name - detailing the plight of the Rusyns who were stuck between a Ukrainian, a Russian, a Slovak, a Hungarian-Rus, a Lemko identity and how this process of ethnic and national identity is developing and also how it has been manipulated. Ultimately however - he was an American.--Bandurist 13:29, 3 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Ethnicity lists discussion

Please see discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) for current discussion of a potential policy to apply to all ethnicity lists on Wikipedia, including this one. JackO'Lantern 20:50, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I have sourced the list in accordance with Wikipedia's No Original Research and Verifiability policies. Basically, anyone described by a reliable source as "Ukrainian" or "Ukrainian-American" (i.e. as opposed to "of Ukrainian descent", "Ukrainian mother", etc.) is on the list. Here are the people I couldn't find anything for. If you have a reliable source that fits that please restore the names:

*Dorian Rudnytsky - cellist and composer

Mad Jack O'Lantern 08:18, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Dorian Rudnytsky - his mother is soprano Maria Sokil, father is Ukrainian and American composer Antin Rudnytsky (see Maria Sokil)--Yakudza 23:54, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Archipenko was born in Ukraine, and lived in America. Why is he excluded?--tufkaa 05:47, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This is all I could find on him.[5][6] I am not sure if the article is even notable, and I couldn't find any actual sources, aside from Wikipedia, on this guy Mad Jack 20:11, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

So I put him back on. (BTW, his article whould really be expanded.)--tufkaa 21:02, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, that was a good source you added. I guess the confusion stemmed from hte fact that he was listed under his full name (i.e. middle name) while most web sites didn't use it. Mad Jack 21:08, 10 June 2006 (UTC)