Talk:List of Tesla patents

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[edit] RMF

How can a person invent rotating magnetic fields? It's like inventing light, or gravity, or fish. -- Tim Starling 02:10, Aug 4, 2003 (UTC)

It's not invented or made (as you imply) ... mainly they are discovered (or rediscovered, like the battery was). The foundational principles are explained, but the items are there ... just not understood. Einstien didn't invent light ... but he explained the photoelectric model. Tesla didn't invent the rotating magnetic field, but he explained the model. There are plenty of other examples (I hope you can find them ... i'm kinda surprised you didn't know this). reddi

Then maybe someone had better change the article, because it says:
Tesla's inventions include the Rotating magnetic field...
-- Tim Starling 02:38, Aug 4, 2003 (UTC)
Putting "model" after it is better, but not perfect. Can you tell me: what is the rotating magnetic field model? So far you've managed to tell us about applications of rotating magnetic fields, but no models as such. So what is it? -- Tim Starling 03:40, Aug 4, 2003 (UTC)

I think the reference to a "rotating magnetic field" should be removed until somebody finds out what it is. Vancouverguy 03:41, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Read the patent US381968 [among several others]. Look it up the term in your favorite search engine .... Electrical engineers can tell you about it ... http://tpub.com/ has a bit on it .. also, if Mr. Starling didn't remove the rotating magnetic field article, you probably could have read about it here in wikipedia. oh well ... reddi 03:52, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)
I read that article, I talked to you about it, attempting to make sense of it, but in the end I discovered that you have no idea what a rotating magnetic field is. Hence I doubt your ability to judge whether or not it is worthy of a mention in the introduction of this article. As for the tpub link, do you mean this? It's just discussing applications of rotating magnetic fields and methods of generating them, not a model. Unfortunately I can't read TIFF files when I'm at uni, you'll have to wait until I have a moment free at home before I read US381968. -- Tim Starling 02:43, Aug 5, 2003 (UTC)
Nice attack on me [i.e., you have no idea] ... be skeptical ... but I am not the only person to make this statement on Mr. Tesla [or his work], other more qualified than me [or you] have stated this fact (among which are member of the IEEE, including thier excutives)]. Are you seriously implying that the idea of a rotating magnetic field doesn't exist? Or there is not a model for them?
The model for rotating magnetic fields is exactly the same as the model for other magnetic fields -- i.e. Maxwell's equations or quantum electrodynamics. Tesla didn't invent either of them. Tesla produced some patents regarding how rotating magnetic fields could be generated and used. Good on him, but it doesn't constitute a model. -- Tim Starling 03:40, Aug 5, 2003 (UTC)
RMFs are magnetic fields which rotates at non-relativistic speeds. Nikola Tesla invented the first AC motor based on this principle. This principle work in all types of mediums.
Here's a few pages from a simple search ...
Two experiments with RMFs
Magnetic Holes in a Rotating Magnetic Field
Rotating Magnetic Field (animation)
There are others ... but i am not going to waste my time trying to contest for this [try to research it .. I am not going to try to discuss it with you as you have something personally against me, it seems]... I will focus my efforts on more productive actions ...
It's regretfull that this common knowledge in electrical enginnering isn't being included in the wiki on objections by people that have not read nor understand this information .... reddi 03:14, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)
It's nice that you've finally found an animation of an actual rotating magnetic field, rather than just a static one that looks like its rotating. You're not obliged to discuss these things with me, but I'm not going to tolerate incorrect information in articles, regardless of who wrote it. -- Tim Starling 03:40, Aug 5, 2003 (UTC)
this one is an example but then you'd have to take the next step and realize that it's spinnin (i.e., not just static, as the image implies) [as this animation was to a earth discussion we had IIRC]. Don't tolerate incorrect information ... but please don't keep correct information out of wiki ... as for me, I'll try to move forward and add some content ... BTW, have you updated that SQL list on me lately? There's some other pages to add to it [like the battery article, not sure if it's listed] .... reddi 03:57, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC) "A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it." — Max Planck
I'm glad you now understand that the image describes a static field, that's certainly not what you implied with this edit. While I'm quoting diffs, I may as well put this one in as well, because it's always good for a laugh. No I haven't updated the list recently, thanks for reminding me. -- Tim Starling 04:09, Aug 5, 2003 (UTC)
yep ... the magnetic field [of the earth] is alternating and rotating. It goes from south to north as the earth is spinning around (this in part allow the compass work; there's more to it I believe ... but I digress) ... it is a form of a RMF. Mabey i didn't make myself clear (probably not; I need to work on my expressing my thoughts clearer ... ), mabey I did (but this is a relapse ... now if i can just stop gettin pulled into this discussion, I'd be happy [puts way the treats]) ... and thanks for the list of items I worked on [not that you are doin it as a favor for me, but more of an attack (mabey, mabey not ... probably) ... though it matters little either way]. Catch the wiki on the flip side, time for bed - reddi 04:35, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC) "I have 10 fingers but only two eyes" - anonymous

[edit] can't be invented

Theseitems can't be invented either "x-rays, ionized gases, high field emission, " Rmhermen 04:29, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Superconducivity

I deleted reference to superconductivity. The patent mentions the well known fact that resistance increases with temperature. The patent talks about reducing the resistance by cooling, but no mention of zero resistance. He discusses metallic conductors and liquid air cooling. Even today, there is no metallic conductor which is superconducting in liquid air. The patent mentioned is: [1], "Means for Increasing the Intensity of Electrical Oscillations". 1900 March 21. USPTO. pstudier 00:27, 2005 Mar 9 (UTC)

The patent current U.S. Class is classified as :

Class 327 MISCELLANEOUS ACTIVE ELECTRICAL NONLINEAR DEVICES, CIRCUITS, AND SYSTEMS
527 Superconductive (e.g., cryogenic, etc.) device
Class 505 SUPERCONDUCTOR TECHNOLOGY: APPARATUS, MATERIAL, PROCESS
888 Refrigeration
870 Power supply, regulation, or energy storage system : Including transformer or inductor
856 Electrical transmission or interconnection system

This is besides the mention of the recent US patent citation of US4869598.

It doesn't matter how the patent office classifies the patent. The patent makes no mention of either superconductivity, nor of zero resistance, nor does it describe any process that would result in superconductivity. pstudier 21:07, 2005 Mar 11 (UTC)
It doesn't matter how the patent office classifies the patent? Yes ... it is very important. So, do you propose that wikipedia just deny the facts? I hope not.
As to the "mention of superconductivity"? This is in retrospect (as many of his inventions are evaluated analyzed for thier true character [BTW, Ratzlaff's Selected Patent Wrappers has a good note on Tesla's battle with the then understanding of the patent office AND why the patents are term as they are] ... Tesla was decades ahead of his time) ... and this is by people qualified to say so (physicists and inventors). This patent covers a process to 'increase the ability to transmit or convey electromagnetic energy.
As to the "zero resistance"? Why don't you reread the patent ... specifically the lines 62 - 78. [If you are just debunking without reading ... please don't remove the information!]
It does describe the process that would result in superconductivity.
First, the fact that the patent office classifies something does not mean much. They classify not to certify anything, but just to make it easier to find similar patents. They have even granted patents on perpetual motion machines. Lines 62-78, emphasis mine:
It is a well-established fact that as the temperature of a metallic conductor rises its electrical resistance increases, and in recognition of this constructors of commercial electrical apparatus have heretofore resorted to many expedients for preventing the coils and other parts of the same from becoming heated when in use, but merely with a view to economizing energy and reducing the cost of construction and operation of the apparatus.
Now I have discovered that when a circuit adapted to vibrate freely is maintained at a low temperature the oscillations excited in the same are to an extraordinary degree magnified and prolonged, and I am thus enabled to produce many valuable results which have heretofore been wholly impracticable.
Here he makes no novel claim concerning resistance nor does he claim zero resistance. Nor would this result in zero resistance because even today no metallic conductor becomes superconducting in liquid air, and most metals are not superconducting even at absolute zero.
pstudier 19:07, 2005 Mar 12 (UTC)

pstudier, nice try ... but READ THE NEXT PAGE! you missed it ... I would have thought you'd read all the lines on both pages ... but you just picked the 1st page ... [shakes my head]

As to the claims ... it's concerning free oscillations (as far as I can tell this is Tesla's term for superconductivity [as that specific term is coined a bit later by Onnes] ) Notice the sentence : intensity of the oscillation ... will be incrased in same proportion to the resistance is reduced. (This is (along with a longer conductor) all for a greater self-induction [if you keep readin this part]) ... Tesla states the "conductivity vs. restistance" ratio, also.

Tesla states that he doesn't limit himself to the any one specific artificial cooling process.

See the claims at the end too ... specifically number 5.

Please Read the whole damn patent!

I have read the whole patent, and even your excerpts here do not support your conclusion. If a wheel is "free" to spin, it does not mean that it has no friction and will spin forever. More importantly, intensity of the oscillation ... will be incrased in same proportion to the resistance is reduced implies that the intensity would increase without limit when the resistance is zero. This is not mentioned. Claim 5 just refers to the well known reduction in a metal's resistance as the temperature is lowered. Never does he claim zero resistance, nor did any technology exist in 1901 that could produce zero resistance. Helium was not even liquified until 1908. It was decades before any superconductor was demonstrated that did not require liquid helium temperatures. pstudier 01:12, 2005 Mar 30 (UTC)
You must not have read page 2 over the stated lines (62-78) .... BECAUSE you were not citing the correct portion of the patent earlier! (and ... you still seem confused on the contents ... I do conceed that I didn't mentiopn the exact page and I am sorry for that ... but you were suppose to have read the whole thing so I thought you would grasp the location ... mabey not ...)
As to intensity thing not being mentioned (ala. the intensity of the oscillation ... will be incrased in same proportion to the resistance is reduced ...), See Page 2 line 65-67. On these lines this phrase is stated!!!! This DOES imply that the intensity would increase when the resistance is dropped via bring the conductor near zero temperature.
Claim 5 does NOT refer to the resistance - temperature thing ... YOU ARE NOT READING THE PATENT! Claim 5 is about intensifying and prolonging the electrical oscillation! (BTW, if you are ignorant of where the claims are in patent ... they are @ the end.)
If you are not goin to read the patent ... nor comprehend the FACTS ... please stop removing the information!

Enough of this nonsense. Superconductivity was not possible with the cooling technology available at that time. pstudier 21:50, 2005 Apr 13 (UTC)

BZZT ... wrong ... see Carl von Linde! Superconductivity was possible with the cooling technology available at that time ... Tesla mention Linde concerning this (in a lecture,IIRC, not the patent) ...

Study some physics please. Linde liquified air. We have already discussed liquid air. No metal is superconducting with liquid air. pstudier 19:14, 2005 Apr 20 (UTC)

No ... you are wrong ... see Conventional superconductor ... Linde's process can be used to achieve cryogenic Kelvin temps. (PS. see BCS theory)
Temperatures necessary for superconductivity were first achieved by Onnes in 1908. Onnes had the best equipped cryogenics lab in the world and had been working continuously in the field for decades. Although Onnes' process used Joule-Thomson cooling (same as the Linde process), it is especially difficult for helium because the "inversion temperature" for helium is 40 K, i.e. you have to pre-chill it to below 40 K or else JT actually heats it. Quite apart from the technical unlikeliness of Tesla achieving this, in secret, without any prior work on super-cooling, nearly a decade earlier than Onnes (and then not telling anyone how he did it), this speculation is simply unnecessary. Not only is there nothing in that patent which suggests superconductivity, there is stuff which strongly suggests there was not any superconductivity--because a superconductor does not make a good oscillator, in fact it strongly resists oscillations. Securiger 20:43, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The patent office classifies the patent as superconductivity tech (that is important). The patent suggests superconductivity.
The process patented is to increase the ability to keep current (as Onnes himself verified in 1912).
It does describe "zero resistance" .. read the patent, Page 2, lines 62 - 78.
The theory necessary for superconductivity was established by Dewar and Flemming. Tesla understood this and was using Linde's machines [the same thing that Onnes himself used and modified]. Tesla had best equipped lab in the world (from the vast amount of money he made from Westinghouse; and he had many wealthy financiers backing him).
Tesla achieving this, not in secret (read his notes written in colorado springs; he states in his notes that it was bitterly cold (IIRC) during his experiments), with prior knowledge on super-cooling (he had a physics degree and was widely known in europe and america by the best scientists (note who is in his quotation section)). The theory of superconductivity was established nearly a decade earlier than Onnes (again, Dewar and Flemming set forward the notion!).
The superconductor is not an oscillator, but the particular winding of the coil sets up the oscillations. (But you'd have to understand coils (like the bifilar that Tesla invented), each have a specific resonance and frequency, to grasp that!)

[edit] Removal of references - superconductivity

Telsa had methods for providing extremely low level of resistance to the passage of electrical current.[2]

  • U.S. Patent 685,012  - Means for Increasing the Intensity of Electrical Oscillations - 1900 March 21 - A method for producing a "great increase in the intensity and duration of the (electrical) oscillations excited in a freely-vibrating or resonating circuit by maintaining the same at a low temperature". Producing increase intensity and duration of electric oscillations; Combination of a circuit to possess freely-vibrating excitations and of means for artificially cooling the circuit to a low temperature; Low temperature resonating circuit; Uses of electrical impulse oscillations; A circuit upon which oscillations are impressed, and which is adapted to vibrate freely, in combination with a receptacle containing an artificial refrigerant in which the circuit is immersed; superconducting oscillators in a series of transmitting and receiving circuits in a system for the transmission of energy.[3]

US patent 685012 - Classifications: 178/43; 174/15.5; 310/54; 327/527; 330/6; 330/61R; 333/24R; 336/58; 343/700R; 439/196; 505/825; 505/856; 505/870; 505/888

  • ^  U.S. Patent 685,012 . The The patent office classifies the patent as superconductivity technolgy, specifically "Dynamoelectric; liquid coolant" (310/54) and "Specific Identifiable Device, Circuit, or System; Superconductive (e.g., cryogenic, etc.) device" (327/527).
  • ^  Ibib
We have been over this before. Low does not mean zero. No technology exits even today to produce superconductivity with liquid air. Etc, ad nauseam. pstudier 23:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
absolute zero is impossible (notice the It is unachievable in practice in the wikipedia article) ... near zero (eg., low) is attainable with certian types of liquifide gases. pstudier read a book about it (as I have), get a clue, Etc, ad nauseam ... J. D. Redding (PS ... "high-temperature" materials (such as yttrium, barium, and copper) all were discovered well before the time of the patent ... and as a side note, it would even take some time for term "superconductivity" to come into wide use ... please don't be ignorant of the history!)

[edit] Superconductivity References

It should be noted in the article that superconductivity was part of his inventions. As to Tesla's Means for Increasing the Intensity of Electrical Oscillations references ...

  1. The patent office classifies U.S. Patent 685,012  as superconductivity technolgy via several classifications
  2. Thomas Valone (ed.) book contains the information on the superconductivity in one of the essays. The essay "Effects of Tesla's Life and Electrical Inventions" specifically notes this.
  3. Oliver Nichelson talks of Tesla's invention in this context.
  4. In "The Problem of Increasing Human Energy - Through Use of the Sun's Energy," (The Century Illustrated Magazine), Tesla cites Carl von Linde (inventor of a method for liquefying air via "self-cooling"). As Tesla states, "This was the only experimental proof which I was still wanting that energy was obtainable from the medium in the manner contemplated by me ." In 1892, Tesla went to London and saw Professor Dewar's experiments with liquefied gases. Tesla noted that others had liquefied gases before, notably Ozlewski and Pictet. Later, Tesla was working on a project, together with other pojects, which would give a refrigerating machine of exceptional efficiency and simplicity. This is the time of the 1895 Houston Street lab fire which delayed his endeavors. Shortly afterward, "Linde announced the liquefaction of air by a self cooling process, demonstrating that it was practicable to proceed with the cooling until liquefaction of the air took place". Tesla sought to simplify Linde's accomplisment, also. Tesla's endeavors in his own projects (with this as one part) would lead to (according to him) a "self-acting machine deriving energy from the ambient medium". Read the "The Problem of Increasing Human Energy - Through Use of the Sun's Energy")
In addition to the above reference, Seifer ("Wizard, the Life and Times of Nikola Tesla". ISBN 1-559723-29-7 (HC)) states that it is possible that tesla contemplated the use of superconductivity. His diagram cites -197 degrees, BUT in the footnote in the chapter he states that (though doubtful) it is probable that Tesla contemplated superconductivity for his world wireless system (this a decade before Onnes experiment).

[edit] Nitpick: (Wiki-markup? idea) why restart the numbering at 1 every 50?

(idea for improvement:) At the beginning of the section "===Fifty-one to one hundred===", it re-starts the numbering at one. Isn't there some feature of the wiki mark-up that we use, that could be used to cause that section to start with 51? In my opinion, if there isn't [already] (such a feature), then there should be -- in the near future. (note: a similar issue exists for the "101-and-up" section). Just my 0.02 Mike Schwartz (talk) 22:12, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Broken Link

The link to the book "Man out of Time" is broken. 198.54.202.94 (talk) 22:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)