Talk:List of Smallville episodes/Archive 1

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Contents

[edit] To Do

  • The titles of each episode should be bold.
  • There should probably be a link for the first instance of a writer or director in each season and subsequent instances should not be linked.
  • Summaries for all episodes.
  • Images for all episodes.
  • Some of the summaries are too long. They should be she summarized and the long version moved to the episode pages.
  • Fix some of the summaries. They read like teasers, not encyclopedic summaries.

User:Peregrinefisher

[edit] Format

This article is following this format List_of_The_O.C._episodes. Please feel free to expand, upload legal images, write summaries that do not divulge the ending, put in proper names and dates. Thanks --DragonWR12LB 07:04, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Epsiode List

 SM521">Fade
 SM520">Oracle
 SM519">Mercy
 SM518">Fragile
 SM517">Void
 SM516">Hypnotic
 SM515">Cyborg
 SM514">Tomb
 SM513">Vengeance
 SM512">Reckoning
 SM511">Lockdown
 SM510">Fanatic
 SM509">Lexmas
 SM508">Splinter
 SM507">Solitude
 SM506">Aqua
 SM505">Exposed
 SM504">Thirst
 SM503">Hidden
 SM502">Mortal
 SM501">Arrival
 SM500">Commencement/Arrival
 SM422">Commencement
 SM421">Forever
 SM420">Ageless
 SM419">Blank
 SM418">Spirit
 SM417">Onyx
 SM416">Lucy
 SM415">Sacred
 SM414">Krypto
 SM413">Recruit
 SM412">Pariah
 SM411">Unsafe
 SM410">Scare
 SM409">Bound
 SM408">Spell
 SM407">Jinx
 SM406">Transference
 SM405">Run
 SM404">Facade
 SM403">Devoted
 SM402">Gone
 SM401">Crusade
 SM401">Covenant/Crusade
 SM322">Covenant
 SM321">Forsaken
 SM320">Talisman
 SM319">Memoria
 SM318">Truth
 SM317">Legacy
 SM316">Crisis
 SM315">Resurrection
 SM314">Obsession
 SM313">Velocity
 SM312">Hereafter
 SM311">Delete
 SM310">Whisper
 SM309">Asylum
 SM308">Shattered
 SM307">Magnetic
 SM306">1961
 SM305">Perry
 SM304">Slumber
 SM303">Extinction
 SM302">Phoenix
 SM301">Exile
 SM222">Exodus
 SM221">Calling
 SM220">Accelerate
 SM219">Witness
 SM218">Precipice
 SM217">Visitor
 SM216">Rosetta
 SM215">Fever
 SM214">Prodigal
 SM213">Rush
 SM212">Insurgence
 SM211">Suspect
 SM210">Visage
 SM209">Skinwalkers
 SM208">Dichotic
 SM207">Ryan
 SM206">Lineage
 SM205">Nocturne
 SM204">Red
 SM203">Duplicity
 SM202">Heat
 SM201">Vortex
 SM121">Redux
 SM120.1">Tempest
 SM119">Obscura
 SM118">Crush
 SM117">Drone
 SM116">Reaper
 SM115">Stray
 SM114">Nicodemus
 SM113">Zero
 SM112">Kinetic
 SM111">Leech
 SM110">Hug
 SM109">Shimmer
 SM108">Rogue
 SM107">Craving
 SM106">Hourglass
 SM105">Cool
 SM104">X-Ray
 SM103">Hothead
 SM102">Jitters
 SM101">Metamorphosis
 SM100">Pilot

[edit] Season 5

Why are so many of the Season 1 episodes listed as both Season 1 and 5 episodes here? VolatileChemical 20:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Somebody created this out of a list of episodes of "The O.C." and that somebody hasn't replaced the old list with actual Smallville episodes yet. Kineticman 07:48, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
I fixed season 5. - Peregrinefisher 18:36, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merging Needed

We need to merge the individual season episode pages Episodes of Smallville (Season 1), Episodes of Smallville (Season 2), etc. into this one with small explanations and and links to a page for each episode. That seems to be the standard way at wikipedia. - Peregrinefisher 04:40, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Deletion

I am soon going to propose this page for deletion. It's a redundant page that does nothing but list everything that is already listed on each of the respective Season pages, and those pages have more detail. When comparing this page to those pages, this page is severly lacking, in images, information, etc. If you wish to continue working on episodes/seasons please see the Season pages, as they are the ones listed in teh Smallville template, not this page. Bignole 21:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

To summarize my original rebuttal from Talk:List of Smallville allusions, this is the preferred format for most major TV shows. It is only appropriate to bring Smallville in line. That the article isn't yet complete is no reason to delete it. The contents of the seasonal pages will be merged here, then they will be deleted in favor of this format. See The O.C., ST: TOS, ST: TAS, ST: TNG, ST: DS9, ST: VOY, ST: ENT, Lost, Buffy, Angel, Malcolm in the Middle. -Anþony 23:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Preference is an opinion, and does not speak of quality. This page is new, redundant, poor quality, and inaccurate. The entire Season 5 is wrong. Not a single episode title is correct. The Seasonal pages have been around far longer, and better kept, have appropriate links to pages that detail what this page (and it's future individual ep pages) will try and cram into single articles. You will end up creating pages that are either too packed or not packed enough. Episodes do not need detailed, scene for scene descriptions. If that was the case why do you think Wiki doesn't want films to have detail for detail plot descriptions? Listing music, writers, directors can be done (and is) on the Seasonal pages. Trivia (which is normally not considered encyclopedic), since so vast in each episode, should be restricted to it's own page. There is not enough trivia to account for a decent page per episode, but there is so much that it would cram into Seasonal/Episode list pages. That is why "allusions" has it's own page, because it is far too large to be put with anything else, but as individual episodes it is too small to require a page. Also, I noticed they had quotes. Quote sections that large tend to be reserved for Wikiquote, because that is what Wikiquote is for, and quotes in wikipedia are generally not considered encyclopedic, especially when you have an entire section devoted to them in each episode. It's an excuse to extend a page that need not exist in the first place. There is no need to list every single "guest star" unless they are noteable. Smallville usually doesn't have more than 1 or 2 noteable guest stars, and they are easily labeld in the Seasonal pages. Other than an expanded plot, which wikipedia doesn't really encourage such detail for tv show plots or film plots for that matter, there really isn't anything there to support an episode page. Why other people insist on making them is beyond me, they do nothing more than take up space that could easily be compressed into other pages. One page for "trivia" (aka allusions to other media, any other "trivia" is usually so small it can be listed with the episode); One page detailing a single season, which contains directors, writers and featured music. Even featured music isn't that important, when you can just add a "Further Reading" section and link to a website the lists every song in the episode. Look at Smallville (Season 5), this is a good example of an entire season. The plots are too the point and are not overly long. Air dates and featured music is listed. Any special trivia is shown in the "*Note:". There are a couple that should be moved to the "allusions" page, but the rest don't fall under that category and are fine as a "Note" in the episode description. There is already images accompanying the episodes, and there is a season overview. The only thing missing is the director and writer for each episode, which can easily be added. This page is a great example of what is needed. Quotes have their own wikisite. There is no need to list the "regular cast" for each episode, that gets redundant after the first one. The main Smallville page already lists them, along with special DC comics guests. Bignole 02:21, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
1. That looks nothing like anything like any of the other shows you listed. 2. It still has the "detail for detail" plot that Wikipedia doesn't like. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and detail for detail plots serve no encyclopedic purpose. That is why it is not done so on Featured Articles. 3. Not every episode will have that much information, especially for Smallville. That is why episode pages are unnecessary and irrelevant. You end up creating the same stuff in each, just to fill a page. 4. Look at the episode list for AD, what does it look like? It's just titles, writers, directors, and air dates, as it should be. Seasonal pages save space, because they only use what is relevant. Many of the "notes" in the episode pages are hardly worth mentioning. Again, you are missing the point that everything is you want to add/create to the List of Episodes page is already done in a far better manner on the Seasonal pages, and those pages have managed to condense the info into only important things. Most shows don't have as many allusions as Smallville, that is why it has it's own page, because there are so many overall. It isn't wiki policy to create individual episode pages, it was just some editors that wanted to expand plots of episodes, for something to do. Guidelines for Good Article/Featured Article for the plot section is the same for TV as it is for film. Bignole 17:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I have proposed it for deletion. You can find the discussion at the appropriate place, from the link on the article page. What is "common practice" is not what is "mandatory practice", and wiki's states that even if something is not done to their guidelines, it can amend guideline for improvement. Seasonal pages are an improvement on "episode lists". They don't create excess pages for needless plot details, keep "trivia" to what is important and noteable, keep "guest stars" to major roles and not "the milk man standing in the background barely in focus". Bignole
Note: There were TWO edit conflicts. I can't seem to get a word in edgewise. This refers mostly to your previous post.
It's not just my preference, it's the apparent preference of Wikipedia at large, standard practice for major TV series. No, the episode articles shouldn't be a shot-by-shot description of the show, nor simply a list of cast and crew, nor a collection of quotes. However, there is often enough information for many of the episodes to fill a well-written page, information that doesn't have a place now. See In God We Trust (Arrested Development episode) for a good example. (BTW, you'll notice the article doesn't contain quotes, but instead links to the Arrested Development Wikiquote page.)
The work that's been put into the seasonal pages won't be thrown away. It will be incorporated into this new format and the work will continue. Once again: that this page isn't complete is no reason to delete it. Nothing ever starts out perfect. It is a work in progress and the tag at the top of the page says so. No one is suggesting we immediately replace the seasonal pages; Smallville doesn't link here and won't until the article is ready.
Your arguments as to what "Wikipedia" does or doesn't like seem to be contradicted by the available evidence. Literally dozens of shows follow the per-episode format, many of which contain expanded episode synopses, cast and crew detail, and extensive trivia, things which you may not think worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia, but others disagree. -Anþony 18:13, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Individual episode template

The page for pilot has been made. We should format it how we want them all to look and use it as a template. - Peregrinefisher 19:30, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I have made a template for the individual episode pages. Get it here. Just paste it into the newly created and page and fill in the information. Look at Metamorphosis (Smallville episode) to see how to fill it in. - Peregrinefisher 21:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I was wondering why Season One didn't have individual episode articles. Thanks for the template, I'll help out wherever I can. Hanshi 16:09, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
You might want to read the below comments first. -- Ned Scott 18:47, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The first season has been done

I created pages for the first season and redirected Smallville (Season 1). Only 88 more pages to go! - Peregrinefisher 09:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

If you need help, I'll be willing to write up the Featured Music bits on each episode. Just contact me via my talk page. Solidius 13:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

You cannot go around redirect anything you wish, especially pages that are full of information that you deleted, or redirecting to pages that are under discussion. I would like to point you all to this page Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes which explains the guideline for creating show pages. It stipulates that you do a Show Page (i.e. Smallville (TV series)), then you do a Season page (i.e. Smallville season 5) (you'll note it says "logical division" and an entire list of episodes altogether is not a division), then you do episode pages. Also, note that this page is part of the Wikipedia:Centralized discussion page, which is about discussing changes to Wikipedia Policy, where Wikipedia:WikiProject List of Television Episodes was created by a user bypassing Wiki's policy change page. If you look at the talk page for the CD/TV episodes, you will notice someone requested that "list of episodes" be placed as part of the ways to express the episodes (i.e. to read "list of episodes, season pages, or another logical division"). Even if we include "list of episodes" as part of the possible formats, the season pages were in place first. Having multiple formats does not mean that you can make your personal favorite format and disregard other formats already in existence. You preference is an opinion, and we know what opinions are on Wikipedia. Since Centralized Discussion are what is used to determine changes in policy (and even the Wikipedia:Wikiprojects on TV list the CD on TV shows as a policy under the "additional relevance and guidelines), and there is a CD on TV shows, the Seasonal pages have right of way when it comes to Smallville's episode guide. It seems that since there is more than one format for creating TV shows, it isn't about what is done more (otherwise there would be only one format, the preferable one) but what is done first, and since Season pages for Smallville were created months before this page, and are in better working order than this page (granted they need work themselves) the Season pages have seniority in this issue of Smallville's episode guide. Bignole
I was wrong in redirecting when I did but it looked like we had a consenus to keep this page. I made sure that all the information from Smallville (season 1) was on this page (except for prod num which I will add now) or on the individual episode pages so no info was lost. - Peregrinefisher 19:52, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, what I've been saying is my opinion. Each keep is also an implicit opinion to convert the season pages to episode list, we can't have both. A page being old does not give it the right of way over a new (and improved) page. The best page wins, not the oldest. - Peregrinefisher 21:45, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, their vote was not to convert the Season to episode list, just to keep the episode list. Check my talk page, Bob stated there that his vote was to keep both pages. Bignole
That sounds redundant but if everyone wants to keep both, I won't object. - Peregrinefisher 22:35, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor changes

Just figured I would state reasons for changing. I saw April 12 as date of the next smallville ("progeny") on this list, but everywhere else it was April 19. I also changed some wording. Dashboardy 17:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, thanks about that. When I changed the formatting I forgot to update the dates. I fixed them on Season 6, but I forgot they were listed here as well. Good catch.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 17:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Individual Episodes/Season Pages

I left it on the Talk page, but I'll put it here, cause it was kind of cluttered on there anyway. You want the List page, I want the Season page, everyone else wants both. Policy indicates that Individual Episode pages, for the most part, cannot support an entire page, and as of right now the only episode that probably can is the Pilot episode. My proposal is this. We make your "LIST" page like the FA of other list pages, where it's strictly the basics: Title, Number, Writer, Director, Air Date (notice "The Simpsons". You don't need the DVD list because that is already on the Smallville (TV series) page. We take the season pages and spruce them up to a respectible level. That means we clean up all the summaries so that they are NPOV, the tone is correct, they are short (but not too short) and to the point. That way, with slimmer summaries we can make room for "Featured Songs", (relevant and important) Trivia (because Wiki does have a true policy on Trivia), and any other relevant goodies we can find. This way we don't have tons of Episode pages proposed for deletion because they are stacked with fancruft. Then, when we actually find enough encyclopedic (referenced) information for an episode we create a separate page for that episode so that it doesn't bog down the season pages. I know you want to keep the indy ep pages, but the fact remains that just creating them and loading them with trivia will send them immediately to the chopping block/merging block (admins will find them and kill them, trust me I know). This way, instead of creating needless episode pages that will end up being fought over countless times, we can focus on improving the "List", "Season", and "Main" pages so that they are respectible and on their way to FA. Bignole 01:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind if the DVD info is merged with the main Smallville page, merged because they don't contain the exact same info. I definitely think the summaries need major changes so they are NPOV and not just teasers. I tried to move the first few summaries towards this. It's true the season pages need a lot of work. A lot of info on the list page isn't in the season pages, mostly writer and director. Wikia is sorely lacking in bunch of its episode pages as well. I disagree that the episode pages are destined to be deleted. My prediction is that the list page will win out, just because of all the other pages like it. Because of this, I think effort should be put into the list page as it's the one that will stick. It's following the same format as the featured list of article pages, so I think that's what wikipedians prefer. Again, I'm sorry for the premature redirect but I really think that's going to be the ultimate result. As far as fancruft being added to the episode pages; we must remain vigilint but any Smallville page is going to have that issue. That's not a reason to delete a page. - Peregrinefisher 02:13, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
What's the difference between the List page's DVD information and the Main pages? As for the list page, It's summaries are a bit long. They should only be 1 sentence or 2, or maybe even known. As The Simpson's illustrate, it can be featured as a pure List of Navigational maps. I like Ned's idea that we link all the episodes to their respective spots on the season pages, unless enough reference material can be found for a specific episode. Season pages are far better than individual episode pages, because they can easily support themselves. I now see the reason behind a List page, but individual ep pages I don't. Anything you read about indy ep pages will tell you that they are destined to be proposed for deletion for being merely expanded plots and fancruft. Look at Stargate's episode pages, they are nothing but huge plots. It's much easier, and faster to work on the season pages and the List page, then it is trying to find resources to support 130+ (and counting) episode pages that will be proposed for deletion otherwise. You're right about Wikia, they are lacking some episodes, but that's because we have too many people fighting over what pages should stay/go and not working to make everything better. Everyone (minus you) is pretty much in agreement that no episode pages should be created yet, and that we should focus on bettering the quality of both the List and the Season pages. Bignole 02:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
The DVD box says the type of format but maybe that's not important. I just added it becuase I wanted to make sure that every bit of info in the season pages was contained in the list page, anticipating it becoming a redirect. The reason the Simpsons page is just a list is because there are so many episodes. You'll note that each Simpsons episode has its own page. As far as linking to the season pages from the list page I don't think it's a good idea, it's not flexible. Stacking the episodes one on top of another creates a lot of formatting problems. Some episodes have 3 or 4 writers and others just one. Some episodes may have several notable guest appearances and others 0 or 1. What if you want to add the production code as I've been doing? Unless you add it to all entries at once it will look strange. With individual pages you can add at your leisure. I don't find it easier to edit the long season pages. You may be able to edit just a subsection if your edit is that kind, but if you have to edit the whole page it takes a bunch of scrolling and can be difficult. - Peregrinefisher 02:37, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Since you think the list page can stay could you remove the Afd tag? We should probably archive it and link to it from the top of the list page. I also think our talk page discussions are of value and could be put on the list page's talk page. I won't go copying and pasting your words but if you agree you have my permission to copy and paste what I said as well. If the discussion is now "are the individual episode pages kosher" we should probably discuss that next. - Peregrinefisher 03:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
It sounds to me like you are making excusing and are unwilling to compromise. I've been working on the season pages for awhile, it isn't hard to navigate it "edit page" mode, not as difficult in doing it for a page that list every episode of the series, in a formatted box no less. I've already taken care of Season 1, all the writers and directors have been noted, and applied the fields to all the rest of the season (they just need to be filled in). As for Guests, only certain episodes have "noteable guests", and we can take a cue from Arrested Development and list all guests on the Main page (recurring and special), that takes care of that. As for the episodes on episodes, that is the way it is now, and there is not format problem. Especially when you consider that adding a little more relevant information for each episode will expand the section a bit, you will actually create less image overlap because of that, making each episode section more presentable. I think you are being purposefully difficult because you really want individual episode pages, and everyone is in at least some agreement that as this moment individual episode pages are a bad idea. Admit it, this is a good idea. It isn't difficult to link to a correct section of an article per link (if you don't know how then I'll be glad to show you/take care of it myself), and most of the work on the episodes in the season pages has already been done, they just need sprucing. Right now all the episode pages are basically bare with information. I just took a look at Metamorphosis (Smallville episode). Quotes have their own place, the single bullet of trivia needs a cite (otherwise it should be deleted) which leaves it with nothing more than featured music and a plot. That is hardly enough for a page, but plenty for a spot on the season page (which it already has). Bignole 03:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I guess I just disagree. Most list of episode pages have individual episode pages for popular shows and I don't think Smallville should be any different. I'm sorry if you think this is not a good reason but I think it is. We should create a discussion to find consensus. If the consensus is get rid of them I won't fight it. - Peregrinefisher 03:21, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
If most people were commiting suicide, would you join in? Just because many editors are doing something dumb and wrong, doesn't make them right. Pages get away with incorrect formats all the time. Look at fictional character pages like Freddy Krueger, Jason Voorhees, and Michael Myers (Halloween); then compare them to Jabba the Hutt. Seriously, take a quick glance at those three and compare to the last. There is a huge difference, the major one being the first three are completely incorrect article formats, but yet they still exist, in the hopes that one day someone will come along and force them to be corrected. I am personally working on the Jason Voorhees article in my personal sandbox to get it up to par. Look at the episode pages of other shows, you find a lot of information that goes against policy (yes policy and not guidelines). There is policy against extended plots, and majory policies against articles that can't support themselves. We don't need another discussion, you got it on the proposed deletion page. Go back and look at all the "Keeps", you'll find that most also stated to "not create any indy ep pages" until resources can be provided to support a separate page. You will not find enough resources to support 130+ (and growing) separate articles for Smallville, and just because others are getting away with it at the moment doesn't mean that Smallville will. I know you put effort into making the first season pages, but the majority do not deserve a page for themselves, and you know that. Now, we can turn 3 articles into awesome articles, or we can create 130 articles that will each be up for debate and you know that real admins will notice them and propose a merger into something else. That is why there are season pages that contain enough info to support indy eps, and when they get too big we create a page for that particular ep (if they get that big). That doesn't mean that having a ton of trivia is getting too big, because that just means the trivia needs to be limited to relevance/importance. Bignole 03:32, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Now the issue is whether there should be individual pages for each episode. One criticism is that each page doesn't contain enough information. I think this is because this page hasn't been linked to, so it probably doesn't get much traffic. This should change with appropriate links. Previously, the list page was criticized for being incomplete so I have been working to fix it. Because it's such a big job I haven't given each episode the most thorough attention. Also, the summaries aren't very encyclopedic but that's because they come from the season pages. I would like to make this page similar to other featured article list pages which have individual pages. I think with the correct linking we can make it happen. Opinions? - Peregrinefisher 03:49, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't think so. Look at the Featured Article pages, not all their episode pages actually contain enough information and the List page was Featured. That isn't a lack of traffic if you can get a List page featured. Look at Arrested Development, it's a Featured Article, yet the individual ep pages don't always have enough information to support a page. Traffic isn't the problem, because we know there are plenty of Anonymous Editors/fans that constantly add nonsense to pages, and I'm sure they would click indy ep pages. The fact is not every episode actually contains anything significant enough to warrant an indy page. And the point is not to keep them until you find that information, it's to find the information before you create them. Look at the Proposed Deletion debate we had; outside editors not involved, and editors involved, with these pages agreed that indy ep pages should not be created unless they can support the page already. This isn't about trying to find the information after the fact, it's about finding before you create the page. Like I said above, just because many shows are allowing incorrect pages to exist doesn't mean that we should follow that, you're doing nothing more than providing new editors with false information; information that contradicts Wiki's policy for article pages and TV episode pages. Bignole

[edit] Getting there

I have created pages for the first two seasons. All the info from the first two season pages has been incorporated. The first season's pages have been referenced. The second season's pages have also been referenced depending on how we want to deal with quotes taken from smallville.wikia.com (ideas?). The episode page summaries for the first five episodes have also been improved. - Peregrinefisher 10:06, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but what part of "do not create any individual episode pages" did you not understand? You are completely disregarding what everyone is saying, and what you asked for (which was a vote on the subject matter). You are showing a lack of respect and good faith for your fellow editors, because you HAVE to create all these pages. BTW, again, Quotes have their own place it's called Wikiquote because quotes are highly unencyclopedic, no matter how you look at them they have no value (that is why we have Wikiquote) and referencing them doesn't mean anything.
Wikiquote has a collection of quotations related to:
Bignole 11:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bring Smallville in Line with other LOE pages

I think that Season pages should should be redirected to this page with individual episodes. The AfD had a consensus to keep this page, but it didn't have a consensus concerning season pages vs individual episodes. - Peregrinefisher 17:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes regarding individual episode pages. Also, please review the votes concering the debate we had. They expressed their opinion about individual episode pages, and not creating them, and to keep the Season pages. It was stated that if enough information can be provide then to create a episode page for it. I'm sorry but you do not have enough to support any of those pages. You are deliberately avoiding the situation in an attempt to get what you want. Look at Smallville (season 1), I have begun to clean up this season and it's clear that you can incorporate all the information and not be cluttered. Please read this Wikipedia:Trivia regarding that information. Also, quotes have no place in an encyclopedia, that is why they have Wikiquote. Attempting to put quotes (ones you feel are worthy) into an indy ep does not help support the page. Yes, all those other List of Ep pages with indy ep pages are wrong too. Most of their pages do not support what Wikipedia classifies as a supportive article. There are just too many to concern editors with right now, and just because they are doing it does not mean you have a right to follow suit. You are deliberately ignoring the policy for TV episode pages, ignore the opinions of other editors regarding episode pages, and doing what you want when you want just so you can have your way. Bignole 17:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Since you are apparently not reading these links I'll bring them to you.

[edit] Content

  • Content about television episodes must conform to Wikipedia content policies, including but not limited to Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No original research.
  • Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Avoid excessive trivia and quotations.
  • Extensive quotation from episodes is a violation of copyright and unlikely to be fair use.
  • Here are some ideas for what information to include about a television episode, where possible:
    • The plot summary of the episode
    • The episode's relevance in ongoing story arcs, if any
    • How the episode was received by critics
    • The episode's impact on popular culture
    • Information on production and broadcasting of the episode
  • Elements which are best avoided in any episode article:

**A scene-by-scene synopsis. An overall plot summary is much better; the article should not attempt to be a replacement for watching the show itself, it should be about the show

    • Particularly for comedies, no attempt should be made to recreate the humor of the show. This rarely works, and is contrary to the purpose of an encyclopedia.

Bignole 18:02, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

==The Opinion from the AfD concerning individual episode pages==

The opinions concerning individual episode pages were

  • Anþony - for
  • Bignole - against
  • The JPS - didn't say
  • Armedblowfish - for eventually, but not now
  • Bob - didn't say
  • Peregrinefisher - for
  • Luvtheheaven - against
  • MatthewFenton - for
  • Ned Scott - against

5 for, 3 against, 2 didn't say - Hardly a consensus against.

Read the opinions here. - Peregrinefisher 23:50, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Armedblowfish wasn't for?
"Keep, but do not create individual episode articles until the season articles are well-referenced, episode by episode. Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 19:27, 26 August 2006 (UTC)"
Not sure, but I don't think this is a "FOR"
So, I guess the real number is 3 FOR and 4 Against (in case you didn't know Luvtheheaven and Emily are the same person, and she said nothing of the such about being "FOR"). Also, since Bob and Anphony did not say anything about Merging/deleting the Smallville Season pages, you can't assume that they mean for you to create an article for every episode (yes it is assumption). Second, POLICY (I don't know why you are having trouble with this word) dictates what an episode page should look like (see above for details) and nothing on your episode pages have that information (and creating all the pages and finding that information after the fact is not a suitable alternative). Your pages as is do not even come close to that the pages are supposed to be in order to support themselves. Policy is in my favor, along with everyone else that said NO to you. I'm not sure why you are having trouble with this Policy thing, but trust me it is not a "guideline", it's a policy as per Wikipedia:Centralized discussion that determines what policies are, and determined what an episode article should be. Bignole 00:07, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I would say it is probably time to start branching out to individual episode pages when the season pages have 40-60 kb of well-referenced material. See WP:V, WP:RS, WP:CITE, and WP:SIZE, and my earlier comments on the AfD. Armedblowfish (talk|mail|contribs) 01:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I've already provided the requirements for what an episode page should contain, with well referenced material, but Peregrinefisher believes that citing where a quote came from, or where he got the music for the Featured Music section came from is enough to establish it as "well referenced material". Bignole
I'm reverting to the previous version. A consensus has not been reached. Please leave this version until we have a consensus. The individual episode pages have more information than the season pages and are better referenced. I'm not sure how to tell how many kb, though. - Peregrinefisher 01:57, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
They do not have more information, they just have information that shouldn't be there. Check Season 1 now, cause it contains the same info, minus the "quotes" because again quotes do no belong there, they have their own Wiki. You cannot dictate what you think are "imporant" quotes on your own. Please read the Policy for episode pages, you are deliberately ignoring it to get your way. Also, again, linking to where you got the music and quotes from is not well referenced. Please read the policy. If you continue to deliberately ignore it I will be forced to seek Administrative assistance, because you are not assuming good faith here. You do not own these pages. Bignole 02:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Now the Season 1 page has all the information from the indy ep pages, minues the quotes because they don't belong, and the page is fine. Also, a "consensus" has not been reached because you are ignoring the facts. First you provide a false report of the votes, in hopes that it will prove you right, and once the truth of the numbers comes out you claim "no consensus" just to keep your way. Also, please note that Armedblowfish said 40-60 kb of well referenced material, and not 40-60 kb of material. There is a difference, and I know you would take that and pretend that is what he meant when it isn't. Even if you take "all the information" and count it, the Pilot episode (which is by far the largest of all the episodes) only has 3 kb of total information, not even referenced info. This is a far cry from 40kb. Bignole 02:20, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that the information is appropriate. I also think their importantance is backed up by their reference. This page with individual links will be formatted in the same way as a substantial number of other wikipedia pages OC, South Park, the list goes on and on. In my opinion, these reasons and others I've mentioned before justify having a discussion on this issue and reaching a consensus. - Peregrinefisher 02:21, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Again, you aren't interested in a consensus you are only interested in getting what you want. Everyone that has posted on your little section has said that the Season pages should stay and when you have enough well referenced information (40-60 kb, which you can determine by copy the well referenced stuff and just saving it on a Word Pad and check the size) that then you should create a single episode page, and not before. Also, a clear note that you aren't interested in what others say is the fact that you just said "I think that the information is appropriate.", which proves you are not being NPOV about this. Policy has been presented for you, which you ignore; other editor's opinions have been presented to you; which you ignore. You have no intention of listening unless the words uttered are "delete season pages and make 130 episode pages". And again you bring up these "south park" and "OC" pages. Just because others are getting away with episode pages that are incorrectly created does not mean that you will. Everything that is in your ep pages is on Season 1, minus the Quotes because there is a link to Wikiquote Smallville at the bottom of the page (where it should be). The consensus is not in your favor and you don't like that so you will ignore it till it goes that way. If you do not start respecting Wikipedia policy and fellow editor decisions, and Wikipedia:Assume good faith I will be forced to go to an arbitration. Bignole 02:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the best thing to do right now is to leave this discussion at the door for a few days (I personally have classes to deal with right now and don't want to have to worry about you and this topic). Work on your "List of Episodes" page (please grab a Wikipedia:Featured lists of a TV show and use it for comparison, follow their links and try and find similar information for you LIST page) and leave all plans of creating more indy ep pages at the same door. At the end of the week we'll come back and see what's what. Bignole 02:47, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I don't think you should be making individual episode pages

I don't think you should be making individual episode pages, as all the information can be put more concisely on a season page, and no one wants to read a summary that is so long it's no longer a summary. The Harry Potter pages also have this problem - people want to include every little deatil because they love the books so much in the plot summaries, but that isn't what Wikipedia is for. The season pages work nicely. I think you should link all of the titles of the episodes in this list to the season pages. Emily (Funtrivia Freak) 00:31, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Individual Episode pages

support - Let's bring this page in line with other list of episode pages like South Park and Stargate, both featured lists. See examples here and here. - Peregrinefisher 17:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Featured lists are evaluated on the list itself, not on the articles it links to. Creating individual episode articles does not bring us inline with those articles. No one is stopping anyone from writing the content, we just don't want to split that content into several documents. All the same information will be contained, and it will be easier for both editor and reader to have them in the "season article" format. I have heard no reason other than "other people do it" for the pro-episode-article argument. -- Ned Scott 18:38, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Ned's saying the exact thing I've been saying to you from the start, and why do you keep creating new sections that talk about the same thing? Creating a new section is not going to change opinions. Armedblowfish told you his opinion, Ned, Emily and Myself. So far on this page you stand alone, and in any sense of the word that is a consensus to get rid of the episode pages (FOR NOW). Maybe later, when we can find REAL information that can be referenced then we will worry about indy ep pages. I'm sorry, but quotes, featured music, guests, and other trivia is not "well referenced" information, that's fanboy information. I don't need to provide you with the policy for content in regards to an episode page again, it's already on this page. We know that all these Featured Lists are getting away with murder in regards to linking to indy episodes that don't follow the policy in regards to indy ep pages. We are not discussing their problems, we are discussing the potential one you are creating here on the Smallville page. The consensus is to end them, and the policy is to not create them in the first place unless they follow the rules for creating them. You shouldn't be fighting to make incorrect pages, you should be going to those other pages and explaining to them that they are wrong and need to conform to policy. Bignole 18:53, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
Both sides: If you want to discuss whether or not it's a good idea to make individual pages, go to the centralized discussion for that. The only question to be asking ourselves is whether or not the write ups in the season pages are detailed enough to warrant individual pages. I think Bignole's recent updates to season one are pretty good evidence that they are or at least that they could be. I think we've discussed the matter to death, so this will be my last word on the matter. -Anþony 05:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Peregrine, why do you continue to choose to disobey the consensus of the group, just to get your way? You have created two more episode articles that still do not provide the necessary information to support a page. Bignole
Could you go over who voted which way in the consensus? - Peregrinefisher 21:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going through this with you again. You get an opinion, you start a new section to try and get another opinion. People came in, they told you what was what, you don't like it so you are ignoring. Well, I'm tired of it so I made the changes that were decided myself. Please act more like an adult, and let's get these pages in to top shape. I'm tired over fighting with you over this. Bignole 21:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
It was roughly half in favor, half apposed. Maybe we should put an RFC at the top of the effected pages and really find out what people think? - Peregrinefisher 22:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The hell it was. You requested a vote on this page, and the vote on this page was not 50/50. You were the only one opposing the consensus of the rest of the group. Armedblowfish, Ned, Emily, Myself have all agreed that the Season pages should stay and that when the episode pages can actually follow the guidelines set forth for television episode articles then, and only then, should they have a page. That means that you do all your work on the Season pages and when they have too much information (well referenced info, not trivial unencyclopedia information like "quotes") then we move them to their own page. The general feeling about episode articles anyway is that they hardly ever have enough info to support their own page. There is a difference between what you put on Wikia and what you put in an encyclopedia. As your buddy over at Wikia said to you, Wikia is more lax in their rules about what an episode article can contain. You are deliberately being stubborn about this and if you continue I will be forced to report you to an Arbitrator. Start acting like a mature editor and let's get the Season pages and the List of Episode pages in working order, and when we'll worry about the indy ep pages later. I already gave you a list of what an indy ep pages should contain, and you continue to make pages that do not meet any of those criteria. Also, you should look into rewriting and shortening the summaries in your List page. Not only are they slightly long, but alot of that is plagarize. Bignole 23:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to note something different from the past arguments. We have several articles that are dedicated to a single episode of a TV show. It would seem that it's ok to do this, but I'm not so sure anymore. We've all heard the Jimbo quote about episode articles, and it does seem pretty common.. but.. this seems more like it's an issue to be cleaned up. Note things like WP:WAF, WP:FICT, and even WP:NOT which says "Wikipedia articles on works of fiction should contain real-world context and sourced analysis, offering detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance, not solely a summary of that work's plot. A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger article."

So basically, while we can have a great detail of info.. we should only be including that detail if it serves to illustrate something out-of-universe about the main article. If the show is notable for it's character development, then an example using a summary that explains some development would be appropriate, but explaining all developments isn't. Fictional articles shouldn't be doing the jobs that the work of fiction should do, and that is to tell a story. The articles should focus on things we don't know from watching the show, such as "detail on a work's achievements, impact or historical significance" etc. These plot summaries should serve topics that are independently notable, such as the work of fiction itself, an actor, a filming location, a special effect technique, response, cultural significance, etc.

Basically, tell us something we don't know, because that's what watching the show is for. -- Ned Scott 03:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The guidline is to transition to season pages then episode pages when they have enough verifiable info. Well Pilots ready to go. I've been watching the first few episodes of the first season, so that's what I want to work on. Saying that I have to finish the first season (and then all seasons?) before I can move to a higher granularity is unreasonable. They can be seamlessly linked to where the wikia links (which are external links) currently are. What's the problem with this? - Peregrinefisher 02:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Because you still aren't getting the picture. Have you even read what an article should contain? I only put that trivia stuff in the season pages to prove to you that it can fit and not be a problem. It really shouldn't be there, hence the reason why it wasn't in the first place. You really should read What Wikipedia Is Not, Wikipedia on articles containing information about fictional universes, Wikipedia on trivia, and Wikipedia on Plots. None, absolutely none of your episode pages conform to those POLICIES. Now, I will admit that there is not policy governing Episode pages, but if you look there is a policy that governs the individual aspects of what a page should have and all of your pages fail. If you refuse to actually work on the season pages, fine that's your choice, but don't be immature about it and try and go around behind the backs of the other editors and create all the pages out of spite. When I have the time (i currently go to school full time and work) I am going to find the RIGHT information that should be on a page dedicated to a fictional universe, and it will replace all that unencyclopedic information that is there now. What is important: Writers and Directors, and maybe Guest Stars. That is the only thing on both the season pages and the episode pages that we have RIGHT. Quotes, music ... not important. Allusions to other media, no...that's not really important either, because it has nothing to do with the show itself. What does it need? It needs things about the production of the episode, something significant that isn't the same old stuff each time. Like Commencement was one of the highest budgeted television shows, THE highest for Smallville, and it actually ran overbudget. Now, you can't just put that in there without a source to back it up, but that is the type of information that an encyclopedia holds. We've been over the situation with you, but you refuse to listen to anyone, or even read the actual policies provided by the other editors regarding all the things that an article should be. Bignole 02:41, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
If you find unencyclopedic content on Wikipedia, remove it and provide justification if necessary on the appropriate talk page. This is not the appropriate talk page. As it stands, I firmly believe there is enough content on the seasonal pages to warrant individual pages, which is the only issue at hand. As evidence, I'd point to season one, which nearly violates WP:SIZE now that you've incorporated the allusions. -Anþony 06:40, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
That sounds right. - Peregrinefisher 07:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Actually, WP:SIZE says this about single topic articles, saying a reader would probably not read that much text at once. However, a season page isn't a normal article, and readers are more likely to jump to a specific spot and just read that. The size warning is pretty much outdated, and only serves as a general "page is large" notice, really. And I have a question to ask, what's the point of writing about the episodes in this level of detail? WP:NOT says that we shouldn't be plot summaries. Rather, plot summaries are just supposed to be examples and a general over-view. So, if we're writing detailed episode summaries.. what's the reason for it? -- Ned Scott 07:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
WP:NOT says " A plot summary may be appropriate as an aspect of a larger article." - Peregrinefisher 08:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I can read. may be appropriate doesn't give everyone a license to cruft-it-up, though. Back to my question, what's the point of summarizing the episodes like this? Why are we spending so much time on something that anyone can learn by watching the show? Just saying what happens is a far cry from a proper representation of a TV show, which has acting, visuals, audio, emotion, colors, etc. You could even say it's misleading. -- Ned Scott 08:30, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
The plots are important because they are part of Superman canon. I agree that out-of-universe information is even more important. Here's the problem; I think the season pages discourage good out-of-universe information, whereas the episode pages encourage cruft. For instance, it would be nice to have comprehensive info on the cast and crew, but this would be too large for the season page. I also think individual external links for each episode are important. I have noticed that individual pages encourage too long plot summaries. The Stargate series has summaries 1 1/2 - 2 pages long. I think a summary should be about 1/2 page for each hour of television. Ultimately though, I'm an inclusionist (could ya tell?) and I think it's better to have comprehensive information with some cruft than neither. - Peregrinefisher 18:38, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Apony, your thought about the page size is incorrect. Ned is right, that is when you are discussing one topic. If it was as you said, then almost every single featured article in Wikipedia will have violated the size policy, seeing as the limit is like 30kb, and most of those articles are much much more than that. It's when you are discussing ONE thing, like a single episode. Second, everything I included on Season 1 is pretty much useless information that shouldn't be there in the first place. I only put it there to prove that you could do it and there not be a problem. Each episode only contains about 1.5-3kb of information, hardly anything for an article to support, and when you remove all that unencyclopedic information that's there, it's even less. As I said, there isn't a policy for an individual episode pages, but there are plenty for everything that should covered in the page. Why you two persist on wanting to include things that do not belong in an article, is beyong me. Here, why don't you try this. Including everything you want and put it on the List of Episode pages, and then nominate it for a Featured List page. I guarantee they'll laugh in your face, and it won't be because you have "so much information", it'll be because of the type of information you are choosing to put in there. QUOTES, MUSIC, ALLUSIONS are not encyclopedic but nature. The reason quotes aren't encyclopedic is because you can't distinguish any value in there, and people are choosing what they want. Pere's got quotes that have absolutely no value in some of those pages, yet he wants them there and sites IMDb as their source. The only reason you two really have for indy ep pages is "because everyone else is doing it". Yeah, and we have thousands of articles that do not follow policy and guidelines....gee I wonder why people criticize Wikipedia and it's "free editing" policy. It's because people like you two that see something done wrong, but like what they see, and decide to continue in the fashion further promoting this incorrect guide and making it harder to correct later down the road. Bignole 12:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Bignole, tone it down a bit and don't be a dick. This is supposed to be a discussion, and you've just been going off the handle this whole time. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong, you need to be a hell of a lot more respectful to Peregrinefisher. -- Ned Scott 12:18, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Understandible, and I'm sorry. But when he's going around behind our backs, seeing as this is a discussion on indy ep pages, and he's continuing to make them, I take that is disrespect to me and other editors who have requested that he stop. I mean, the polite thing would be to at least stop till this is all resolved. Bignole 12:32, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Plots can be important, but they don't need to be detailed. I could go detail for detail in half a page. The plot should really only consist of maybe a paragraph of information, if that. They aren't important to Superman (canon) because they are their own canon. If you want to know what happens then watch the show. You don't need comprehensive info on the cast and crew for each episode. Most of the crew doesn't usually change, and the cast never does (exceptions being write-offs and write-ons). The things that are solid for each episode should be place on the main article page. Those are things that don't change episode to episode. If you can find some good information about a guest star, like something they went through to get the job (not the fact that they appeared on another show), then that could be listed by an episode to episode basis. Cruft isn't part of an encyclopedia. It's fanboy stuff. We have a wikiquote for funny little one liners and other types of things. We have a page dedicated to the allusions to other media. Music is music and doesn't really have a bearing on the show itself. You can list the music and unless there is something special about it it is essencially fancruft also. Bignole 18:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] DVD table

Can we get rid of the DVD table? It isn't a very good table of contents now that their are six seasons. - Peregrinefisher 20:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, you should see the simpson's table. That's a huge one. I always thought it should be anyway, because it already exists on the main article page. Bignole 20:55, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Linking

If it's red then it's dead. If it's blue then it's true. This page is probably the definition of over wikilinking. If the article has no page then it shouldn't be linked. I know some people leave them red in hopes that some editor will come in and fill out the information, but if that was the case then it would have happened and the link wouldn't be red. Also, you should only link once (unless there's a special circumstance involved, which would really only be linking the cast). All these directors and writers have been linking in almost every episode, shouldn't be that way. Also, I know from working on the season pages that certain directors and writers don't actually have pages, but actually link to the wrong individual. Please check your links in the preview mode by "opening in a new window". Bignole 21:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I'll create pages for some and de-link the rest. - Peregrinefisher 22:12, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
If you want to create them then I'm cool with that. Just becareful they don't get deleted for lack of content. Bignole 22:25, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I've taken care of the linking. Someone may need to go through and check to make sure that I didn't leave any out, or that I removed one that was actually the only link for that name. Also, James Marshall doesn't have a page, his link goes to a disamb. page off several James Marshalls. If someone wants to make his page "James Marshall (Director)" then that would be cool. Bignole 04:49, 7 October 2006 (UTC)