Talk:List of Roman Consuls

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How can Sextus Pompeius be listed as consul for 35 B.C.? That is really weird. I'll have to check out what the real answer is the next time I'm near a copy of Pauly-Wissowa, but if someone else has the opportunity, could they check it out too? Thanks.Jmkleeberg 17:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

It's an different Sextus pompeius. The Pompeius above is better called Sextus Pompeius Magnus Pius. The Consul of 35 B.C. was a relative of Octavian. Marcus Cyron 19:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Carolus Martellus

I found that Carolus Martellus was offered a title of Roman consul in 739 but he rejected.--Dojarca (talk) 07:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Policy of the list

There are errors in the 1st centuries BC and CE lists. Some consuls are given names which are modern speculations, or nicknames which were never used officially. What is the prevailing notion/policy about admittance of nicknames and speculative identifications to such formal lists? I'd suggest that where a name is modern speculation it be omitted or (where it is generally accepted) only included within square braces, perhaps with an additional question-mark inside the braces to represent the true nature of the evidence. Nicknames should only be added, if at all, inside quote marks or round braces. Since it is a scholarly convention to include a name/surname acquired after the consulate in round braces, nicknames should be represented differently, i.e. inside quote marks, or better not represented at all. What do others think? Appietas (talk) 01:30, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Which names are speculation? ---Μίκυθος (talk) 08:35, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


29BC suffectus M.Valerius Messalla Potitus

true, two inscriptions from his biennium command of Asia province have simply "Messala Potitus proconsul" in that order (IDidyma 147, IGR iv.1338); but the lack of any forename is a warning that something unusual is happening on those dedications.

Second, he must have been brother of either Messalla Corvinus (cos.31) or (less likely) of Messalla Barbatus (cos.suff.32), and both of them were Marcus, so Potitus must have been a Manius. Third Manius is confirmed as his forename in the inscription from Asia attesting his quaestura there (SEG 37.959): "Manius Valerius Messala Potitus quaestor". Finally the career elogium found in Rome gives him Potitus as forename (ILS 8964). Therefore the two Greek inscriptions in his proconsulate have swapped around his unusual forename and famous cognomen, so it would appear that he began life as Mn.Messalla Potitus (similar style to his brother M.Messalla Corvinus) and sometime between quaestura and consulate converted his agnomen Potitus into an even more distinctive forename, no doubt following the example of the youngsters Paullus Fabius, Africanus Fabius and Nero Claudius Drusus (who was initially Drusus Claudius Nero).

in addition to the fasti of the vicorum magistri attesting Potitus as his forename at the time of his consulate, and the ILS 8964 elogium after his consulate, there is the extant filiation of L.Messalla Volesus (cos.5CE) in the fasti Cap: Potiti f.M.n.

Appietas (talk) 09:03, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

2CE suffectus P.Cornelius Lentulus Scipio: fasti Cap. extant in full for this name, which is: P.Cornelius P.f.P.n.Scipio - the addition of Lentulus looks to be a modern error

No, Lentulus was even the Top-gentilname, see CIL 10, 2039a and 6, 1385


Thanks, non vidi. Are you sure these texts apply to the cos.suff.2CE (name the colleague) rather than 24CE? Appietas (talk) 14:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, look this site [1] and give in "Beleg" 10, 02039a or 06, 01385

61BC M.Pupius Piso Frugi Calpurnianus: the "Calpurnianus" appears to be a modern tautology, repeating the job already done by "Piso Frugi" (according to the 1st century BC style innovations in adoptive nomenclature) in identifying the stirps (rather than gens) of the man's birth. At least there should be consistency; if mod. scholarship insists on this unattested Calpurnianus, then so too the name of Metellus Scipio (cos.52) should end with Cornelianus, M.Varro Lucullus (cos.73)and A.Varro Murena (cos.des.for 23) both Licinianus, and so forth.

The Chronograph of 354 give the name Calpurnianus. He was a Calpurnii and was adopted by a M. Pupius. The gentilname Calpurnius get to Calpurnianus.


Yes it's an important source but not error free. You seem to be missing my point that no contemp. source attests Calpurnianus, and that there is no parallel for an adopted man using the cognomina/agnomina of his birth family (in this case Piso Frugi) AND also the gentile adjective. It's a pointless repetition. The 354 Chronograph also gives Mamerco and Iuliano for 77 and Cicerone et Antonino for 63. Calpurniano for 61 is probably the author's error. Probably the same source's most important contribution is Caesare et Turmo under 64 BC; i.e. L.Caesar and the Minucius Thermus attested by Cicero as a front runner for a 64 consulate. So it looks like Marcius Figulus was a suffectus. Here's an online text by the way; http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/chronography_of_354_08_fasti.htm Appietas (talk) 14:03, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I can say no more to this guy. When you have actuelly literature, do you can this correcting.

41BC - the Pietas addition seems to be attested only on coinage, where it is a political totem, and not part of the name; the name form of this noun was Pius.

Well, Pietus was not official part of his name, Cassius Dio has given him the name. We Could Pietas in parentheses L. Antonius (Pietas).


Appietas (talk) 08:40, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

--Μίκυθος (talk) 11:15, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Abbreviating forename Manius

This list uses a standard modern abbreviation M'. (apostrophe after the M) to differentiate Manius from Marcus. Well and good theoretically, except that it is sometimes difficult to make out, and very easy to overlook. I'd suggest an alternative: M/. which is much clearer and was an ancient epigraphic standard for abbreviating Manius (most notably in the Capitoline fasti). Appietas (talk) 02:06, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

This isn't an epigraphic list. This is a modern list. So we have to use the modern terms. Marcus Cyron (talk) 22:46, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Forename problems

There are a few examples where common forenames are given in full, inconsistently with normal practice of abbreviation (everywhere and on this list in general). E.g. 199 Publius Villius, 111 Lucius Calpurnius, 22 Marcus Claudius, 13 & 7 Tiberius Claudius.

Also the forename of Lentulus Spinther (57) was P., the list has L. by a slip. And Spinther was a nickname rejected by this haughty prince (although used by his son), so better would be; P.Cornelius Lentulus ("Spinther" pontifex)

Appietas (talk) 14:17, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Scipiones Nasicae

The line of Scipiones Nasicae is quite well documented; none of the nicknames (like Corculum and Sarapio) were hereditary, while Sarapio was a mocking epithet applied to the cos.138 by an enemy. Better would be P.Cornelius Scipio Nasica ("Corculum", pont.max.), and P.Cornelius Scipio Nasica ("Sarapio", pont.max.). Also Sarapio aut. sim. was not inherited by the cos.111 and should not be applied to him, as in this list.

Appietas (talk) 20:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)


[edit] More on speculative names

Q.Marcius suffectus 36 this name appears to survive only as "[M]arcius"; Syme Augustan Aristocracy p.456 etc. only prints Marcius (1986 and 1989). It is a very good idea to identify this fellow with Q.Marcius Philippus the Caesarian vir quaestorius commander of Cyprus, but there are other possibilities. Anyhow, where does the Q. come from, as in this list without query?


P.Cornelius Dolabella suffectus 35 I've not seen this guess before and think it is brilliant and can be supported by various diverse evidence and arguments (son of the homonymous pr.69). Still, only "P.Cornelius" is extant and so there are many competing possibilities, ranging from P.Lentulus Marcellinus (recently proposed on a Roman history email list), to P.Scipio (father of the cos.16 - so Syme AA p.456) and P.Sulla Caesar's commander at Pharsalus, son of the cos.des.for 65 and father of L.Sulla P.f. cos.5BC with Augustus XIII. It's disturbing to see Dolabella's name without any query or qualification.

for Marcius and Dolabella see link [2] and give in "Beleg" AE 1991, 00894.

Many thanks, a sensational find. Pity the 1989 revision of Syme AA missed it. It resolves the sole remaining anomaly about the development of Roman nomenclature in Asia prov epigraphy (OGIS 451, with typically Augustan period features, attributed to P.Dolabella pr.69). Btw- are there wiki articles on fasti of the provincial commanders ? Appietas (talk) 17:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

L.Cornelius Cinna suffectus 32. This is a much favoured resolution, also in Syme AA. But again, what evidence beyond "L.Cornelius" in the extant fasti? Another very strong candidate is L.Cornelius P.f.Balbus who triumphed pro cos. from Africa in early 19 BC. The immediately preceding vir triumphalis (also ex Africa, 18 months earlier in late 21 BC) was L.Sempronius Atratinus the suffectus 34. And under Augustus the African command seems to have been confined to viri consulares. Cinna (the q.44) can legitimately be preferred, but hardly without query or bracketing of some sort.

L.Volcacius Tullus cos.33 is correct; but his homonymous father (cos.66) is "Volcatius" in this list, presumably just a slip.

correct

Addendum on Potitus Valerius Messalla suffectus 29; his forename Potitus as consul is also attested in extant fasti: "Potit.Valeri." (Degrassi Ins.Ital.xiii.1, 512), the very same source which attests "[M]arcius" in 36, "P.Cornelius" in 35 (Degrassi, 508), and "L.Cornelius" in 32 (Degrassi, 510)


    • My apologies for misreporting above ("Policy of the list") the suffectus 2CE as P.Cornelius P.f.P.n.Scipio in the fasti Cap., where he is P.Cornelius Cn.f.Cn.n.Scipio

Appietas (talk) 08:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Late Byzatine consuls

There was a large number of late Byzantine consuls, we do not know dates for all of them. For example, here are some names of ex-consuls:

references to the logothetai. and to the sakellarios and his important rote during the reign of Constant II already mentioned, the first references to the leading officers of the developed establishment occur for the year 680. when certain high officials accompanied the emperor at the sessions of the sixth ecumenical council. These are named In order as follows: Nlcetas, most glorious ex-consul, patricius and master of the Imperial offices; Theodore, most glorious ex-consul and patricius. coma of the Imperial Opslklon and deputy general of Thrace; Sergius. most glorious ex-consul and patricius; Paul, also most glorious ex-consul and patricius; Julian, most glorious ex-consul, patricius and logothete of the military treasury: Constantlne, most glorious ex-consul and curator оf the Imperial estate of Hormtsdas: Anastaslus, most glorious ex-consul, patricius and second-in-command to the comes оf the imperial excubitorts; John, most glorious ex-consul, patricius and quaestor: Polyeuctes, most glorious ex-consul; Thomas, also most glorious ex-consul: Paul, most glorious ex-consul and director of the eastern provinces: Peter, most glorious ex-consul: Leontius, most glorious ex-consul and domestic of the Imperial table.[3]

Here are some consular coins: [4][5][6][7].

I do not know how to include them all.--Dojarca (talk) 07:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

There is a major misunderstanding here: hypatos ("consul") was used, since the early 8th century, merely as a court title. It was a relatively lowly title (8th in the hierarchy) and had lost all connection with the former Roman consuls. The same goes for "apo hypatos": while this is means "ex-consul", by the 8th century this was nothing but a mere honorary office, as no one served a consular term any more. To claim that the commerciarii (treasury and customs officials), logothetes or even the petty Italian princes that were awarded this title have anything to do with the Republican/Imperial office except the common Greek name would be very misleading. Everything from Justinian II onwards should be deleted. If one wants to have list of hypatoi, there is the hypatos article. Cplakidas (talk) 22:14, 31 May 2008 (UTC)