Talk:List of Quakers

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This article is part of WikiProject Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), an attempt to better organise and unify articles relating to the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers). If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion
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Contents

[edit] Dup?

We already have a list at the main Quaker article. Do we have enough references to individaual quakers to nessecitate a seperate list? Lyellin 14:18, Aug 12, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Who to List

What about Joan Baez? She was raised a Quaker and was obviously influenced by the Peace Testimony. Logophile 14:26, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I would suggest either going with how people choose/chose to identify personally, or create a separate section for other people "affiliated" with Quakerism (although that could become a slippery slope). I don't believe that Joan Baez identifies herself as Quaker, so I would leave her off (unless I'm wrong on that detail). --Ahc 15:13, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)
According to [1], "as an adult she claimed not to share her parents' Quaker faith." Sdedeo 19:31, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

Edward Backhouse was a forger. I'm not sure he should be in a list of Quakers, as his actions are not consistent with Quaker beliefs. Logophile 10:16, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Nor were the most notable of Richard Nixon's, but I think it's clear that he should be listed. I don't think it make sense to start trying to argue who is and is not a good enough Quaker to be listed, I feel we would quickly loose neutrality. --Ahc 15:05, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I take your point and agree with you. I retract my prior comment. Logophile 12:48, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Lyndon LaRouche article includes information that LaRouche was raised as a Quaker, which is in his official biographical information. LaRouche sought and obtained a conscientious objector status in WWII, but then changed his mind and enlisted. A researcher in Quaker history recently found records of the LaRouche family's involvement in the Lynn (Massachussetts) Monthly Meeting. Within 5 years of moving to the community, at the age of 18, LaRouche's conduct was discussed by the congregation at a quarterly meeting, apparently for slandering other members, among other charges. After further discussions he was "disowned" sixteen months later, and the rest of his family resigned in protest. I am not a Quaker myself, and I do not know what "disownment" is. It sounds like a removal from the congregation. -Willmcw 21:57, Mar 30, 2005 (UTC)
External link: The disownment of Lyndon LaRouche Austin Meredith, 2005, Brown University, the Kouroo Contexture: The History of Quakerism (PDF)

I think we should consider some guidelines for this list. A few of the people on it did not remain Quakers. Elisha Gray, for instance, became a Presbyterian. Logophile 20:28, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. Any suggestions for the guidelines? In a couple articles I've worked on the past, someone would propose a set of guidelines, and others would edit until a final set emerged. --Ahc 13:57, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if I agree with that suggestion. Is it proposed to limit the list to those who never left the faith? Who maintained membership in a meeting their whole lives? That would be a much less interesting list. -Willmcw 23:15, May 9, 2005 (UTC)
To be clear. I didn't mean to suggest that Elisha Gray should come off. I think the idea of guidelines is a good idea. --Ahc 15:26, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
I brought it up because Ahc had earlier advised not putting Joan Baez on the list because we do not know if she still considers herself a Quaker. If we don't put her on the list, then Gray, who became a Presbyterian, would not qualify for the same reason. Here's what I propose. Let's divide the list into two parts. Part 1 (Quakers) is people who were born and raised as Quakers or joined a Meeting and never left or were disowned. Part 2 is People with Quaker Roots. The only other alternative I can imagine is putting anybody on the list who was ever a Quaker. I could go along with that, too. Logophile 18:53, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
That's a logical distinction and I'd support it. -Willmcw 20:45, May 10, 2005 (UTC)
How about a Third Part: Quakers Who Were Disowned? It would include a wide variety of people: from [Betsy Ross] to Isaac Hopper (an abolitionist who was disowned by New York City Friends in the 19th Century) to Lin Marcus/aka [Lyndon LaRouche]. Might give an interesting picture of what kinds of behavior Friends of different eras thought were just going too far! -- Rich Accetta-Evans January 6, 2006
I think it would make the page too complicated. I think the current scheme is best, but I won't stand in the way of somebody else's adding a section like that. I think the various Quakers who have been disowned could be put in Quaker history, if the sourcing is good. Logophile 06:39, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Logophile. I think this would add too much complexity to the list. --Ahc 04:18, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Olaf Stapledon

Olaf Stapledon? --Eric Forste 21:28, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Uh no. I've read several biographies of him for the work I'm doing and he was pretty solidly agnostic. Before their friendship totally broke off he told H. G. Wells that "people actually think I've become a Christian", in kind of a mixture of disgust and amusement. Towards the end of his life he said if he'd be any kind of religion he'd be Quaker, but then went on to say how he felt they failed in certain areas.--T. Anthony 15:56, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Christopher Fry

Someone just forwarded me something that purports to be the the Economist obituary of playwright Christopher Fry. The obituary calls the playwright "a Christian and a Quaker". --Eric Forste 00:22, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Klaus Fuchs

Does Klaus Fuchs belong on this list? I am not aware of any evidence that he was a Quaker. I will not remove him until after giving anyone with more information a chance to respond. -- Rich Accetta-Evans January 6, 2006

[edit] The Pease Family

I recently discovered a big error in this list. Edward Pease was not the first Quaker member of Parliament. His son Joseph was. The mistake was probably based on a website that used an ambiguous "he" meaning the son but leading someone to think it was the father. We need to be on the lookout for other places where this might need to be corrected.

Also, the two Edward Peases are said by one website to be related, which I think is probably true. It would be nice to find that relationship and point it out. Logophile 12:31, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I took a look at the LDS's genealogy search engine, which does list both men, but I couldn't find direct ties. I've mostly used them in the past to track American Quakers which often goes better (they have reviewed much of the meeting minutes in various archives and so have surprisingly complete data), but that does not seem to be as carefully done for British Friends (I could think of several reasons for this). But a lack of a connection (particullary in 1 data source) is hardly evidence that there isn't one. --Ahc 14:38, 19 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cheryl Tiegs

I can't find a source yet and won't put her name in unless/until I can find one, but I have a notion that Cheryl Tiegs is or at one time described herself as a Friend. Does that ring any bells with anyone? Dpbsmith (talk) 13:30, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Lifetime TV says "Raised on a farm in rural Minnesota with no running water or electricity, Tiegs cherished her idyllic surroundings and the meditative quality of her family's Quaker faith." Apparently a birthright Quaker, anyway. Dpbsmith (talk) 13:34, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Roger Fry's sisters

I have added Joan Mary and Margery Fry to the list, as they were Quakers (Roger was not, I think) and have merited entried in ODNB. If no-one else wants to tackle these Redlinks, I'll probably get down to condensing the ODNB articles and googling around sometime before Christmas (year not specified)

Vernon White 22:17, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John L.P. Maynard Quaker Bagpiper and humorist and early silent spokesperson for Quaker Minimalism.

Any action on this dubious entry? ---Vernon White 07:06, 3 October 2006 (UTC) _____________

This entry removed and article page marked for deletion. Entry for William Martin "Actve Quaker naturist" removed as non-Notable. ---Vernon White (talk) 14:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC) _____________

[edit] David W. Dennis, congressman (R-Ind.)

I note that this person received a Quaker education. Does that make him a Quaker, please? === Vernon White (talk) 12:58, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

No, attending a Friends school does not make a person Quaker. Most people that attend Friends schools are not Quakers. --Ahc 13:49, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
No, I don't think he can have been a very active Quaker after he left Earlham. Friend of Nixon, though. I'll remove him from the List of Quakers.=== Vernon White (talk) 14:22, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Joshua Humphreys, ship builder, 1751-1838

If this person is "The Father of the American Navy" then he is unlikely to have remained a Quaker, although it is stated ([http://www.famousamericans.net/joshuahumphreys/ Famous Americans website]) that his grandfather was a Quaker settler from Wales.

[edit] John Lawrence, Suffolk Yeoman Farmer

Doesn't seem to be much point in having this entry, if nothing more is known of him. Does the editor who added him to the list intend to write an article, please?=== Vernon White (talk) 22:33, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

Now removed from list === Vernon White (talk) 00:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Piers Anthony

In what sense is this writer a Quaker? The article mentions he is an agnostic but not an Agnostic Quaker. He served in the U.S. Army, which is a rather unquakerly career choice. === Vernon White . . . Talk 19:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Now removed from "List of Quakers" Vernon White . . . Talk 13:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] F. Murray Abraham

Is this person a Quaker? The article makes no mention of his being a member of the Religious Society of Friends. === Vernon White . . . Talk 19:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Now removed from "List of Quakers" Vernon White . . . Talk 13:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tyne Daly

Someone has added her to this list. "(I know someone who has attended meeting with her in California)". I have asked them for further evidence. (She played a Quaker character in Christy (TV series), I know.) Vernon White . . . Talk 13:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edmond Privat

Someone has added to the list a redlinked Edmond Privat. As far as I can see, the Esperanto wikipedia doesn't mention that he was a\Quaker [2]. Vernon White . . . Talk 21:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

He was an important quaker for Switzerland Yearly Meeting. See fr:Edmond Privat, fr:Liste de quakers. -- Greetings from MHM-en (talk) 21:25, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
http://www.swiss-quakers.ch/english/histoire.html —Sladen (talk) 21:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reviving

This became a redirect based on the opinion of one person using an inaccurate precedent of List of Christians. Granted the example of List of Methodists was maybe not the best as I created that list. However for comparable examples I can cite...

The "List of Christians" was partly deleted for being too generalized. Specific denomination lists have generally been safer. (Except for a sneaky prodding of "List of Lutherans") Still if it's desired it go AfD is more honest.--T. Anthony (talk) 11:40, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

- - -
If there is to be an alphabetical list, then:
  1. There must be criteria for identifying who is and who isn't a Quaker, as well as what comprises "notability" in Quaker-historical terms.
  2. The list must be checked, frequently and regularly, to remove spurious entries or, if the subject has some contact with the Religious Society of Friends but not a member, place them in a separate list.
  3. As there is over 350 years of history, it is important that each entry includes a date of birth, death or period of activity.
  4. Please note that I have already started Category:Quakers by century, with sub-categories for the 17th and 18th centuries, so far. Vernon White . . . Talk 19:52, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not wedded to it being alphabetical. If anyone wishes to reorganize by occupation or nationality or something that's fine. I have tried to source it better, but I'm hoping not to be alone in that.--T. Anthony (talk) 00:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I have B-D, F. H, S, and W yet to source. I might do "D" later tonight, but I think I'll stop there and let others do the rest.--T. Anthony (talk) 04:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Vernon's rules. They seem sensible, and hopefully will encourage us to address the problems this list had during its last round of existence before it gets out of hand. --Ahc (talk) 05:21, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh I also agree in so much as I understand them. I might add some dates in certain cases, but others seem to be doing better on that.--T. Anthony (talk) 09:13, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but you should never simply restore a deletion (even soft deletion) when WP:BLP is clearly cited. We cannot have unsourced articles that give out information about living people, and this list was a poor example of that. I am happy to see that the restoration involved the addition of sources but there are still many entries that still don't have a reference - I know it's an arduous task but it needs to be done or the entries removed.

To clarify, the given precedent was not inappropriate and the examples given above are generally well-sourced, which this wasn't at the time. violet/riga (t) 11:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

It is sourced now, there was no discussion, and there was no deletion debate. Any BLP concerns would be just as true with a category if not moreso. If you see a name here that is unsourced and not categorized as a Quaker then remove it. The only basis for a redirect was one person's opinion about a precedent. Possibly that someone was you, but it makes no difference who it was.--T. Anthony (talk) 11:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
There is no mention of lists of living persons in WP:BLP. Should this matter be clarified? Vernon White . . . Talk 17:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes. I meant to do that, but I need to eat dinner here soon. I'd even be okay with removing all living people and renaming it "List of historical Quakers" or something. I mean if their presence is a big enough problem.--T. Anthony (talk) 00:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
There's some discussion at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons. Vernon White . . . Talk 14:42, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Henry S. Taylor

WP article on Henry S. Taylor makes no Quaker connection. Vernon White . . . Talk 00:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ned Rorem

The following added to the Ned Rorem talk page: "What evidence is there that Ned Rorem is a Quaker, please? BTW, a person who lives in a Quaker settlement or attends a Quaker School or College, or whose family have been Quakers for generations is not ncessarily a Quaker". --- Vernon White . . . Talk 09:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC).

Moved to "Quaker roots". Vernon White . . . Talk 13:55, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Rorem's Quaker background comes up in a number of his published diaries. I don't have them handy to quote, but if you run a google search with the three words < Ned Rorem Quaker > you will find a number of sources that cite not only a Quaker family background but Rorem's own identification as a Friend. In an interview concerning his upcoming opera based on Thornton Wilder's Our Town, Rorem makes a statement beginning, "We who are Quaker..." Fred Lane (talk) 02:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Is there any other evidence, please? There's a quote at ASCAP: October - November - December 1998 " I'm a Quaker, by the way, philosophically, though not religiously." This does not qualify him to be be called "a Quaker", which involves membership of a Quaker Meeting and worshiping with other Quakers regularly. Vernon White . . . Talk 23:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sally Nicholls

I removed "Sally Nicholls, British children's author.<ref>"Sally Nicholls, [http://sallynicholls.com/about/interview.php An interview], retrieved 2008-02-28.</ref>" as her WP article says she is an attender. An attender is not a member, although attenders at YFGM of Britain YM have an ambiguous position. Vernon White . . . Talk 22:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

To add to my points below, which were posted before reading the above, I would like to say the following. Attenders are not members, by definition, but nor are all people who identify as, or are known as Quakers all in membership. Would you deny the name to those who claim it, who are also active in voluntary involvement in the running of major Quaker groups in the UK, unless they are also formally in membership? SamBC(talk) 22:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
The following edit was originally started before the above finished:
Regarding this edit—since when is this restricted to people in official membership? I'll admit here and now to knowing Sally (through YFGM), and I think it's ludicrous to only list people here if they are in membership. Is this meant to suggest that attenders can't be considered Quakers?
Sally served, IIRC, as representative from her old Monthly Meeting to YFGM, and was also a volunteer at the 2005 World Gathering of Young Friends. This interview also has her stating that she's a quaker. SamBC(talk) 22:36, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Britain YM hasn't yet addressed the issues raised by Who do we think we are? Young Friends' Commitment and Belonging, the 1998 Swarthmore Lecture presented by YFGM. However I do not believe it would be good if WP List of Quakers accepted as a Quaker anyone who declared themselves to be a Quaker. A view has also been expressed that some people would strongly object to being labelled a Quaker in a WP article. May I suggest that we stick to the definition of membership in QF&P, chapter 11], for British cases, until the anomolous position of YFGM is resolved. I hope Sally has no objection to acquiring formal membership the old-fashioned way. BTW, The Friend has reported Sally to be "A Quaker Author" Vernon White . . . Talk 23:46, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
"However I do not believe it would be good if WP List of Quakers accepted as a Quaker anyone who declared themselves to be a Quaker. " Heavens, why on earth not? That's exactly the criterion you would use for the Church of England, Catholics, Buddhists, ... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.119.113 (talk) 12:01, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


The question of objection to being described as a quaker seems moot for someone who has described themselves as a quaker, as I linked to above. I guess if there's anyone on this list who lived before there was formal membership should be removed then...
This will especially limit the coverage of younger Friends, as many of us are loath to seek membership until we feel that we are likely settled in one area; otherwise we'll have to go through the extra fuss of transferring membership from one AM to another. The concept of non-geographic membership has been under examination by BYM for a while, but there is no resolution yet. I would point out that BYM will accept anyone as entitled to attend and participate in Yearly Meeting if the co-clerks of YFGM vouch for them. This leaves aside the issue of how objectionable many find it to deny the name of Friend, or Quaker, solely on the grounds of membership. SamBC(talk) 10:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
  • (For the avoidance of conflict/doubt, I first meet Sally Nicholls at a Quaker event in the mid 1990s).
I have deleted the troublesome word "attender" from the Sally Nicholls article. None of the references actually uses it. One reference does say "member", however the same source makes a slight slip-up on the naming of "RSOF".
Originally Sally Nicholls was added to the first section ("definite Quakers"). The top of List of Quakers contains guidelines for use of the first and second category. The guidance for the second list appears to be inclusive, though is qualified with "...but then converted to another religion, formally or informally distanced themselves from the Society of Friends, or were disowned by their Friends Meeting.". This does not appear to be the case, with the person in question—who comfortably self-identifies as a "Quaker" and is described by the relevant, leading Quaker press (The Friend) as being so.
—Sladen (talk) 11:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)