Talk:List of Poles/Archive2

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Contents 1 in the List? 2 RfC on User:Antidote 3 Page Deletions 4 Mentioning Partial Ancestries and Polish Jews 5 Vote? 6 Signing comments 7 Names 8 Ethnic Identity, Anti-Polonism, and Anti-Semitism 9 World's Oldest Poles 10 List of Ancestry Continued 11 Don't be a Hyprocrite 12 Mariusz Pudzianowski, Poland's answer to Arnold Schwarzenegger 13 German Jewish American list, Polish Jewish American list 14 Site for Ethnic Germans, Site for Ethnic Poles 15 Neutrality 16 fine arts and painters 17 Who is not a Pole? 18 Discrimination against Poles 19 Homolka 20 Aaron Kosminski 21 People without Polish names and without any explanation as to how they are associated with Polish people or Poland 22 Ethnic Poles 23 Polish names 24 Sources, please 25 John Paul II 26 Clarification 27 Historical territory vs. current territory 28 Introduction 29 Ethnic Poles living in other countries 30 Artists 31 Where was the consensus reached before SylwiaS changed the introduction again? 32 Polish Americans 33 Racism against Polish family names 34 Voting 34.1 Comments 34.1.1 By Informationguy 34.1.2 By Piotrus 34.2 By Sylwia 34.3 By Informationguy 35 The difference between Fully Polish family names and Part-Polish family names 36 Vote on Introductory Paragraph 37 I wanted clarity and explanation, you only wanted citizenship and feeling 38 August Kubizek 39 Logical foundation for the support of Polish family names 40 Vote Results 41 Consensus is now reached 42 An Ethnic Poles list 43 Not Poles? 44 Red links 45 Request review of recent edit 46 Music

[edit] in the List?

Henryk Lipszyc

Franz Jakubowski

see also talk:List of Polish Jews

--Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 12:08, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I added him to both lists.--SylwiaS | talk 15:44, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

thank you!!(by Sheynhertz)

• Erich Przywara

[edit] RfC on User:Antidote

User:Antidote aka User:HotelRoom, who has arbitrarily deleted several people from this list, is subject to a request for comment for repeated violations related to lists by country and sock puppetry, please see Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Antidote.--Pecher 13:42, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

A new maroon... The persons were Polish Jews of course. And what? According to this point of view Heine, one of the greatest German poets is not supposed to be listed on the list of famous Germans and Leśmian one of the greatest Polish poets is not Polish. Moreover, there are no Americans or Australians as almost of of them are of "foreign" descent. C'mon man... Find yourself a new toy. Yeti 21:06, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Page Deletions

Territories frequently change, and hence, peoples of a particular affliation are sometimes born in a territory of another nation. The Germans of the Sudetenland were not Czechs, but they lived in the Czech Republic (or back then Czechoslovakia). Similarly, many Prussians/other Germans/Russians were born in the territory of Poland but were not Polish by any notable standards. If a territorial change occurred between Russia and Mongolia, the Russians who happen to live in Mongolia after the change are not in any way Mongolian except by territorial birth. The deletions that occurred here were not arbitrary, and those that did not make that much sense, were readded. Therefore, continuous reverts on this page to include these people can only be seen as a point trying to be made by USER:Pecher. Antidote 21:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Your argument, which goes along the lines of "who is Pole" or "who is Czech", misses the point of the list. The summary on top of the artcle says: "This is a partial list of famous Polish or Polish-speaking/writing persons, or persons born in Poland." Therefore, anyone who meets the above criteria should be on the list, whether or not they meet your definition of Pole.--Pecher 22:17, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

By your definition, "persons born in Poland", I added Paul von Hindenburg. Informationguy, 28 December 2005.

A simple solution to that would be to revise the heading. Honestly, nobody comes to a List of Poles to look for Prussians or Russians. Putting them on here is being a bit too politically correct. Antidote 23:20, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

No solution is required because there is no problem. At least, from the point of view of all editors, except Antidote.--Pecher 15:14, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

There is a problem that needs to be assessed. Assuming it is not a problem just because many are not concenred with it is a bad method to go by. You cannot just ignore others input as you have been doing. You are just as stubborn as I in many cases, perhaps more. Antidote 18:17, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mentioning Partial Ancestries and Polish Jews

I don't see why it's necessary to mention someone as Polish Jewish on this list, considering Polish Jews have been assimilated into the populace for centuries. I do understand the tags designating those who are only born in Poland, but it seems pretty much counterproductive when all that needs to be done is to change the header and most of these people will not have to be included. 72.144.68.229 08:02, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't see why it's necessary to mention someone as Jewish on the List of German Americans, considering that German Jews have been assimilating into the German populace for much longer and deeply than in the history of Jews in Poland. "More than half of Germany's Jews intermarried with German Gentiles." from "The Rise and Fall of Adolf Hitler" http://imdb.com/title/tt0168336/ Also most on the list are people who are Polish on both sides of their family, less than half on the list are of Non-Polish ethnicity such as Jewish or German or Russian or anything else. Informationguy

[edit] Vote?

Would a vote on whether only names and professions be listed be appropriate? Or if you want you could just edit the page the way which seems most appropriate to you.

Informationguy

[edit] Signing comments

I kindly ask all the partcipants of the discussion to sign their comments. Thanks.--Pecher 07:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for listening. I have removed the "unsigned comment" templates.--Pecher 07:56, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

There is one comment that I did not write but was listed under my name: the first comment "partial ancestries and Polish Jews". Informationguy

Feel free to remove the signature then and put the unsigned template there: {{unsigned|User date time}} . It is customary to sign comments with four tildas ~~~~ . To do that, you can press the second button from the right. Also, please make sure that you have logged in under your username before editing.--Pecher 08:07, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Names

Names ending with: uk (Ukrainian), zky (Ukrainian), sky (Russian or Ukrainian), stein (Germanic), berg (Germanic), man (Germanic), er (Germanic, English or French), ov (Russian or Bulgarian), ko (Belarusian, Ukrainian or Russian), ich (German or Russian), of (German or Russian), vili (Georgian), vicz (Russian). Informationguy

[edit] Ethnic Identity, Anti-Polonism, and Anti-Semitism

But Polish Jews from the US usually register as Polish too. As many as 3 million fromt he 8 million total Poles; plus few Polish-Jews were unassimilated in Poland. Antidote 23:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

--

Few German-Jews were unassimilated in Germany, and German Jews from the US usually register as German in addition to Jewish. Jewish history in Germany is much longer and deeper than the history of Jews in Poland. So why on the List of German Americans are the Jewish pointed out on the list? It seems counterproductive, why don't you deal with this page more so. I'm also aware that between 1881 and 1920, about 2-3 million Jews from the Russian Empire came to the United States, please provide facts as to if they listed themselves as being from either Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Estonia, Poland, Czech, Slovakia, former Prussia, etc. Informationguy

"Gang fights in Chicago were not always Black v. White. There was considerable trouble between Polish and Jewish gangs, and it was unsafe for Jewish boys to travel unprotected through Polish terrority or even into Douglas Park which was, in theory, a no-man's land. In the summer of 1921 Samuel 'Nails' Morton, by then already a decorated war hero, led a fighting gang into Polish terrority after some Jewish boys had been assaulted. The slogans of the day were 'Help the Hebes lick the Poloks' and 'Wallop the Polok'. The Syrian Persian community was not allowed north of Huron Street on Clark Street by the Assyrian Persian community. There were also German and Hungarian v. Italian and Poles v. Greeks and Italian gang fights, as well as Lithuanian v. Jews over the territorial rights to Stanford Park. See F. Thrasher, The Gang, pp. 196-200." from * Gangland International: The Mafia and Other Mobs by James Morton 1998, ISBN 0-7515-2237-6. "Reprinted 2000, 2001. Non-Fiction. The moral right of the author has been asserted". Page 417. Informationguy 28 December 2005

[edit] World's Oldest Poles

I believe that the birth and death dates in the military and crime section should be kept, since those in the military section signify the World's Oldest Poles, while those in the crime section signify when they lived and if they are still living. Informationguy

[edit] List of Ancestry Continued

Should their be only names on the list, on the bios the rest of the info? What about the categories? Informationguy

[edit] Don't be a Hyprocrite

If the the mentioning of someone being Jewish on this list is bad, as two people (72.144.68.229 and Antidote, have requested, then it should also be the case for the List of German Americans. Because if not, it would seem that it's customary for only German lists to single out Jews? Are not Jews listed as both a religious group and an ethnicity in Wikipedia? Also, why are Germans given their own category in the list of Poles if (72.144.68.229 and Antidote) don't want Jews to be listed as a separate category like Germans? Shouldn't then the Germans also be listed as Poles? Please explain this to me since it doesn't make any sense to me, I don't understand the logic in this. Informationguy

Since my list of people of Polish-Catholic origins showing whether it's from both parents or one, I have decided not to update this list anymore, so now others are going to edit it to their opinions. Please note that there were several people that edited this list in the past! Since I believe that language and identity are sometimes, but not always, separate, since I speak english but I am not of english ethnicity, nor do I have an english name. Thats all I got to say about that. Complete neutrality is what I aimed for. 29 December 2005 Informationguy

[edit] Mariusz Pudzianowski, Poland's answer to Arnold Schwarzenegger

What happened to the photo of Poland's manhood Mariusz Pudzianowski? Informationguy

You didn't source it or tag it - that's why it was deleted. I don't think its controversial. Antidote 18:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] German Jewish American list, Polish Jewish American list

Since someone added a German Jewish American list, I added a Polish Jewish American list, IF this is Anti-Semitic then I will delete my edit, but the person that added their edit should in that case also delete their list. This was an attempt to create EQUAL TREATMENT in Wikipedia, for I believe that due to a larger amount of German wikipedia users, there is a Pro-German unfair double standard for Poles. Informationguy

[edit] Site for Ethnic Germans, Site for Ethnic Poles

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_German

Ethnic Poles, Polonia

Informationguy

[edit] Neutrality

Since I believe that Poles have unfair treatement compared to Germans here, I don't think I should no longer contribute to this list, it's hard to be neutral in a non-neutral environment, I have been thinking of how to properly resign and I believe that this would probably be the best way. So, I will delete my edits if someone tells me they are Anti-Semitic. Other then that I will add no more to Wikipedia and quit Wikipedia. Right now. Informationguy

[edit] fine arts and painters

Please, ask before moving someone to the list of Polish painters. Sometimes those artists simply didn't paint a single picture, or like Rajkowska do things like a huge palm in Warsaw's street, and painting is only one of the skills she posseses but not her general domain. Some people are both painters and sculptors, and should be on both lists. Murak makes sculptures with grass, Kulik - mostly photographs and video arts, she's also a performer, Kozyra does video arts and photography.--SylwiaS | talk 23:09, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I have trouble deciding who merits inclusion in the small selection of Fine Artists on this list. Therefore I was moving the ones who weren't as famous. Antidote 18:58, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Who is not a Pole?

There have been many discussions here about who's a Pole, so maybe we should also decide on who's not a Pole. For example Fjodor Dostojewski was not a Pole, even though he had Polish name and Polish roots in his family. Leelee Sobieski is not a Pole, even if she claims she has anything to do with our late king. Monica Lewinsky is not a Pole even if she has a Polish name. So let's make it clear. If someone had to emigrate, but still claimed his Polish nationality, and cultivated and stressed their belonging to Polish culture, we may claim they a Pole. If someone was born abroad but their parents grew they up in Polish culture, taught Polish language etc, we still may say they're a Pole. But if someone just has a Polish name after some ascendant God knows how many generations back, or just got a Polish name without any relationship to Poles (someone named Aaron is not a Pole by any streach unless he was born in Poland) then they're not a Pole. So please, having a Polish name doesn't make one a Pole. If someone was a gangster in a Polish gang in the USA then I can understand he was Polish, at least he claimed his Polish nationality by choosing the gang. But if someone is simply named with the "ski" at the end, it really means nothing.--SylwiaS | talk 00:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Lets be clear Sylwia Monica Lewinsky is not a Polish name, it is a Russian/Ukrainian name. Because "sky" is Russian or Ukrainian not Polish. Lewinsky's parents were German Jews who had connections with either the Russian or Ukrainian nation. Those connections could of been by assimilation or name changing by which the original names should be listed, or through marriage, which would mean partial descent. By the way, there is a thing such as Ethnic Poles, Polish people whose descendants left Poland and went to USA and married only Poles, or sometimes other people and then they become mixed. And yes, having a Polish name does make one a Pole, having a Polish name means that in some way that person is connected to Poles (ether by adoption in which case both adoptive and real parents are listed, or by being Partly-Polish in which case the other ancestries would be credited, or fully Ethnic Polish in a country that is not Poland. And having the name Aaron does not always mean that the person is a Jew, sometimes it does through, but not always, people give first names according to one's personal taste, sometimes thats the case with last names, but if so, the original names would also be listed. So if someone has the suffix "ski" at the end, it means Polonia.

--Informationguy 6 January 2006

The ending "sky" being not Polish is just your definition. So let's be clear. Names ending with "ski" are Polish. Names ending with "sky" are often names of Poles that were russificated, and later translated into English from cyrylic. Check Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky.--SylwiaS | talk 00:31, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"The ending "sky" being not Polish is just your definition." - By your definition also, since you say that it's often "russificated" Poles, in other words: Changed Names, or assimilation, it's very important to clarify this, if not, they are not Poles. "ski" is Polish, "sky" is "russification" in other words, just as I said Ukrainian or Russian. - Informationguy

And any name ending with "ski" or "sky" is not of Jewish origin. Jewish people might wish to use a Polish name, but it certainly doesn't come from Yiddish or Hebrew. Also, give me one ethnic Pole who would name his son Aaron and I won't argue about it any more.--SylwiaS | talk 00:38, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I put that '"sky" is Russian or Ukrainian not Polish.' in the above article, please read it again. I know that "ski" is not from Yiddish, Ladino, Aramaic or Hebrew, but some Jews have assimulated changed names such as: Abramowicz or Jakubowicz, and some Jewish people changed their names to Polish names that end with "ski" but in the Wikipedia lists their original names are also listed. And I never said I knew an ethnic Pole by the name of Aaron, but some parents give their kids strange names because of personal choice, like Dawn, Hope and what about names like David, Moses, Benjamin, is everyone with those names Jewish? Or is everyone with the name Homer, a Greek? Like I said, there must be explaination given. - Informationguy

"Fjodor Dostojewski was not a Pole even though he had Polish name and Polish roots in his family." That means he's at least Partly-Polish, and unless you describe more with sources and explanations, fully Polish. --Informationguy 6 January 2006

"Leelee Sobieski is not a Pole", she's half Polish and half Jewish. If she's not a Pole to you, then neither is Frederic Chopin or Tadeusz Kosciuszko. --Informationguy 6 January 2006

Please, read the description from the article: This is a partial list of famous Polish or Polish-speaking/writing persons, or persons born on historically Polish soil. In the interest of fairness and accuracy, the minority of persons of mixed heritage have their respective ancestries credited.. You are free to reinsert anyone who can have listed his parentage. E.g. Leelee Sobieski as half Polish. And all the others as how much 1/16, 1/32 Polish? Just bring the sources. Chopin and Kościuszko were born in Poland, so they're Polish. Dostojewski hated Poles, so he wouldn't thank you for being listed here. And it's my point. Did the people really think themselves Poles?--SylwiaS | talk 00:26, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"And all the others as how much 1/16, 1/32 Polish", please bring the sources to show if they are partly Polish (half, quarter, 1/32 etc). Otherwise, they will be listed as either partly-Polish or fully ethnic Polish, depending on the information given. Informationguy

Dostojewski may have hated Poles, but if he's part Polish that doesn't change his descent. Chopin was only half Polish, and Kościuszko is a Belarusian name similar to the current president of Belarus. So I believe that the description also needs ethnic Poles will also be listed. And they could have thought themselves Poles, or other people could have thought so, both reasons are legitamate. - Informationguy

Deciding someone's descent on names only is rather silly. In this manner you would think me 100% Pole, what isn't true. On the other hand I am 100% a Pole and not my descent decides about it, but I do. Not everyone who wears a Polish name is a Pole. People have the right to choose. You shouldn't choose for them. I even think that if someone was born to Polish emigrants but didn't speak Polish and didn't think himself Polish, they shouldn't be here. But ok, let's say that the first generation born abroad still had Polish as their mother tongue. But what with the rest? If someone's great grand father was a Pole and the Polish name comes from him, but no one in the person's family spoke Polish, nor cultivated Polish tradishions, are they really a Pole? Or if someone was born to Jewish emigrants from Poland, and their parents had Polish name, but never spoke Polish living in Poland, didn't assimilate with Polish neighbours etc., is the person still a Pole? The description in the article is good. It says born in Poland or speaking/writing Polish. It doesn't mean everyone with a Polish name.--SylwiaS | talk 00:52, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"Not everyone who wears a Polish name is a Pole. People have the right to choose. You shouldn't choose for them. I even think that if someone was born to Polish emigrants but didn't speak Polish and didn't think himself Polish, they shouldn't be here." - People do choose for other people when they immigrate from a country on whether that person is Polish or Russian or Jewish, it's listed. That goes against the entire reason of lists of ethnicity. Regardless, an ethnicity does not come from personal choice, it comes from unchangable descent, and people who tried in the past to hide or assimilate their ethnicity failed as many encylopedias such as Britannia show. Informationguy

Does Britannica defines someone's ethnicity merely on one's name?--SylwiaS | talk 02:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Encylopedias commonly define ethnicity as parental origin, or the origin of the birth parents, grandparents, this answer is repeated several times through the text. Informationguy

"I even think that if someone was born to Polish emigrants but didn't speak Polish and didn't think himself Polish, they shouldn't be here." - Why bother having any lists of ethnicity, lets all choose what to be? What do you want to be today? Thats being sarcastic and completely ridiculous. Informationguy

Well, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic. But if ethnicity goes so many generations back, then indeed we shouldn't have any lists. We all come from Adam and Eve, or monkeys, choose whatever you prefer.--SylwiaS | talk 02:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Talk to the guy who invented ethnic lists about this. Informationguy

Many Encylopedias list where people were born, what ethnicity their parents or great-great-grandparents were, what religion they were, what there original name was, if they were adopted: if so their natural birth parents' origins are listed, if they are of mixed heritage: then their other ancestries are credited, not just what language they spoke or which country they lived in. Informationguy

Ok, so provide the information.--SylwiaS | talk 02:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Look into the lists, all the explanation is given, if only a Polish name is listed, then that is one source to be connected to Poles, information can also be added. Informationguy

"If someone's great grand father was a Pole and the Polish name comes from him, but no one in the person's family spoke Polish, nor cultivated Polish tradishions, are they really a Pole?" - Yes they are a Pole, and 100% Polish if the family married only ethnic Poles, but if none of them had children with any Poles, then that person would be 1/8 ethnic Polish. Informationguy

And that certainly makes him a Pole! If someone's ascendant emigrated in 19th century, no one in the family married with a Pole, and the person is now 5th generation after the one who gave the family name, then he is 1/16 a Pole. Is he still a Pole? Just because of the name? We're going to have the longest list ever here. Unless you are going to list everyone with English or German name as English or German.--SylwiaS | talk 02:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"then he is 1/16 a Pole. Is he still a Pole? Just because of the name" If someone is 1/16 Polish then that person is partly Polish, it still makes them more of a Pole then someone who was just born on former Polish soil or who speaks Polish or is only a citizen of Poland. Informationguy

"Or if someone was born to Jewish emigrants from Poland, and their parents had Polish name, but never spoke Polish living in Poland, didn't assimilate with Polish neighbours etc., is the person still a Pole?" - It doesn't matter if they didn't assimilate with Polish neighbors, that means either changing their names or intermarrying with Polish Gentiles, if they intermarried they would be Partly-Polish, if they changed their names they would just be assimilated Polish-Jews or Polish-Jewish-Americans, and they original names would be credited in encyclopedias of them. Informationguy

Well, their original names wouldn't be credited if the families changed the names many generations ago. Only 10% of Polish Jews were assimilated before the war, and even less used to marry with non-Jews, but much more changed their names.--SylwiaS | talk 02:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"Well, their original names wouldn't be credited if the families changed the names many generations ago. Only 10% of Polish Jews were assimilated before the war, and even less used to marry with non-Jews, but much more changed their names." Please proof these allegations with sources as I did in ( "More than half of Germany's Jews intermarried with German Gentiles." from "The Rise and Fall of Adolf Hitler" http://imdb.com/title/tt0168336/ ) in the above articles. Informationguy

Furthermore, it is possible to know or find out if one's family name was changed many generations ago, and then that original family name can be found and credited. Please prove to me, that it isn't possible, for I believe that is it possible to find this out, due to the many Ancestry tracing products that are available to the public, just type into msn.com search engine: ancestry tracing, or family tree research, many Ancestry tracing products have been successful at finding out people's changed names (even if changed many generations ago) and these products are for sale. Informationguy

The definition of Ethnic Poles includes Poles who never spoke Polish or lived in Poland, nor have citizenship with the country of Poland. Informationguy

The definition goes: Ethnic Poles (usually simply called Poles or Polonia) are those who are considered, by themselves or others, to be ethnically Polish rather than anything else but who do not live within the country of Poland nor hold its citizenship. So, if someone was born in the USA, never met his distant Polish ancestor, speaks only English, has roots like Polish, Irish, Jewish, Greek, and is an American in third generation he is concidered American rather than anything else, even if he has Polish name.--SylwiaS | talk 01:58, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

They are considered Ethnic Poles, Polish-Americans, a Non-Native-American just like Serb-Americans, Lithuanian-Americans, Slovak-Americans, Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, English-Americans, Mexican-Americans. With credit going to the full ancestry. If the person has Polish-American parents, grandparents and only loved the country of USA, then they would be fully 100% Polish-American, they can love Poland too but it doesn't change their descent, even if they immigrated there Ethnic descent wouldn't change, only if they had children with a Non-Pole could the child be partly Polish. However, if they had roots like "Polish, Irish, Jewish, Greek", then persumably they would be one quarter Polish, as it's called partly Polish. But you must be specific, what was the descent of the father, and the mother, along with their great-grandparents. It also depends on how the person's descent is mixed, the person may be 90% percent Polish, for example, as I said, there must be a full explanation, not political censorship or statements based on emotion rather than factual evidence. Polish name signifies Polish-American, for these reasons and the numerous reasons given above. Informationguy

No, you must be specific. If you want to add someone here, please, add also the information about this person's Polish heritage, not the person's name. And is it fair? How about people who are 1/4 Poles but haven't got Polish names?--SylwiaS | talk 02:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

You can add in details, but a Polish name signifies a Polish connection, and those who are Partly-Polish and don't have Polish names, feel free to add them. With an explanation if they don't have a Polish name! Informationguy

How do you decide that Homolka is a Polish name?--SylwiaS | talk 00:56, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Two reasons: it ends with ka, see this source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Polish_surnames and the name of Wladyslaw Gomulka, a Pole. Informationguy

I think that name ending with "ka" may come from any Slavic country from Russia down to Macedonia, so there is a big chance that she's not Polish. Of course someone with a name ending with "ski" can be found in any other country too, so it doesn't prove anything.--SylwiaS | talk 02:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"I think that name ending with "ka" may come from any Slavic country from Russia down to Macedonia, so there is a big chance that she's not Polish." I think you are completely wrong. Here are my sources: on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name#Poland lists the suffix "ka" as being Polish, while on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_name#Russia has the suffix "va" as being Russian. So since Homolka's name ends with "ka" this is proof that it's Polish, and of course a name ending with "ski" is in many other countries, because Poles immigrated to those other countries. This is the proof. Informationguy

A Pole might have immigrated to another country 500 years ago. The name may be still used, but the ethnicity would be 99% non-Polish. The link you gave doesn't list the suffix "ka" as Polish. The "ska", "cka" etc suffixes derive from Polish grammar and are used for women's names only. The name Homolka is not an adjective but a noun. Its masculine form would be the same. E.g. Tom Homolka. The word probably means something in some slavic language, but not in Polish, because I have no idea what it is.--SylwiaS | talk 03:38, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

A Pole might have immigrated to another country more than 1000 years ago. The person can then use Ancestry tracing products that are available to the public, just type into msn.com search engine: ancestry tracing, or family tree research, and research into the areas were his ancestor has lived, ask Archeologists about the shape of the skulls and Historians about the historical significance of this. I'll remind you that there is an Old Polish language and the modern Polish language, in that case, then the persons name would be in Old Polish, which an English-speaker would understand as being similar to Old English in the English language. And even just 200 years ago, the Polish language was different than what it is today, certainly 500 years ago, the Polish language was much different than what it is today. So even 1% Polish is still partly Polish, even 0.0000001% Polish is still partly Polish if one has any Polish connection such as a Polish surname. Homolka might be a Czech surname, but give proof please. I'm now pretty sure that Homolka is a Polish surname because it ends with "ka" and because Wladyslaw Gomulka, a Pole with a very similar name to Homolka. Gomulka is a Pole, Homolka seems to be a Polish name, please provide your proofs, not "I have no idea what it is", that is insufficent. Provide sources, like I did. Informationguy

"This is a partial list of famous Polish citizens, Ethnic Poles, Polish-speaking/writing persons, persons born on historically Polish soil, persons of Polish descent or heritage, or those considered by others or themselves to be a Pole with the reason explained. In the interest of fairness and accuracy, the minority of persons of mixed heritage have their complete ancestries credited." Informationguy

[edit] Discrimination against Poles

"Table 1 shows an index of how different the Irish and others were from native Americans. (Philadelphia was one of the few cities with a large native American working class.) The data show the Irish were about in the same position as German immigrants, and much less liable to being boxed into a job niche than blacks, Italians, Poles or Jews."

From http://tigger.uic.edu/~rjensen/no-irish.htm "No Irish Need Apply": A Myth of Victimization by Richard Jensen, a Retired Professor of History, University of Illinois, Chicago.

Informationguy

I always thought that native Americans are Indians. Which means that actually every white American is from somewhere else. If we’re going to be so picky about their ethnicity, then the list of famous Americans shouldn’t exist, or list only famous Indians. Although one can’t choose their ethnicity, everyone can choose their nationality. That’s what all white Americans did. Anyhow, I don’t say that all the people are not Poles, but we don’t know if they are. Moreover, it’s unlikely that they are. I didn’t remove those people who were said to have Polish parents. But let’s keep to some realities. If we know nothing about someone’s heritage, their name really doesn’t mean anything. Let’s limit the list of emigrants to people who are at least ½ Poles.--SylwiaS | talk 03:02, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"Anyhow, I don’t say that all the people are not Poles, but we don’t know if they are. Moreover, it’s unlikely that they are...But let’s keep to some realities." Again, I disagree with you. Lets keep to ALL realities not just some, as you recommend. And moreover, if they have a Polish surname then they definately have a connection to being Polish and belong on the list. Informationguy

There are sources to find out if people are Poles. Their name signifies that without a doubt they are connected with Poles, and could be fully 100% Poles, the list should stay, and any with mixed hertiage will have their complete ancestry credited. So, (their having a Polish name does make one a Pole, having a Polish name means that in some way that person is connected to Poles (ether by adoption in which case both adoptive and real parents are listed, or by being Partly-Polish in which case the other ancestries would be credited, or fully Ethnic Polish in a country that is not Poland). - Same answer to the same question you are repeating yourself. Informationguy

And what if someone for some reasons only changed his name to a Polish one? And to some other thing which you wrote somewhere up, but it's easier to answer here. If someone was born in Poland, grew up in Polish culture, and thinks himself a Pole than he's certainly more Polish than someone who has only some distant ascendant. I really don't understand the blood percentage rule. It reminds me Hitler saying that everyone who has at least one of grandparents a Jew is a Jew.--SylwiaS | talk 03:48, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

If someone only changed their name to a Polish one, like Roman Polanski (born Rajmund Liebling), then his original name is credited also, not just his changed name. There is a difference between a descendant of a Polish citizen and an Ethnic Pole, but you obviously don't seem to care. The list clearly says anyone of Polish ethnicity (blood) or citizenship/culture can be included and their complete ancestries are credited in the interest of accuracy and fairness. Informationguy

I do care, that's why I think there should be some reasonable frames. And I really don't think that the names say anything. Ok, let's try such an example: Woody Allen, (born Allen Stewart Königsberg). So the article says that he changed his name, but it doesn't say when he's family changed their name to his previous one. Because Königsberg certainly was not their original name. And now, does the name mean that he's Polish, German, Prussian or Russian?--SylwiaS | talk 04:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

It's a Germanic name, German or Yiddish. If your interested in Woody Allen then you can research whether his family changed his name to Konigsberg from something else. Informationguy

Königsberg is a German name, not Yiddish. It’s a name of a town that belonged to German Teutonic order, then was a Polish fief and then was in German Prussia. Today it’s in Russia. Woody Allen’s family took the name, so they had to live there. Let’s say that they lived there for many centuries. One time they would be German Jews and the other Polish Jews, though they married only with Jewish people. Is Allen now German or Polish?--SylwiaS | talk 04:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Your question is wrong. The question is, is Woody Allen descended from Polish-Jews or German-Jews or Russian Jews, since the question is only about the ownership of the soil his ancestors were born or lived on, then he his ancestors can be both German-Jews and Polish-Jews. Another question can be asked is, whether anyone of his ancestors was Polish? If so, which one? Then he could be added to the list as being partly-Polish if that were the case. Since Wikipedia lists Jewish people as not only a religion but an ethnicity as well. Informationguy

Then imagine that none of his ancestors was either Polish or German, as probably none of Aaron Kosminski’s was. If Woody Allen himself was born in Poland or Germany, he would be added to a relevant list, but as he’s born in the USA he’s not added anywhere. The name doesn’t make him neither Polish nor German.--SylwiaS | talk 05:11, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Aaron Kosminski's parents were most likely assimilated Polish-Jews or perhaps he had a Polish father or grandfather, research him if your interested in him. If Woody Allen's ancestors were born on former Polish soil, then add him to the List of Poles, with the explanation: ancestors born on former Polish terrority. After all, I added von Hindenburg because he was born on current Polish land. Informationguy

"Reminds you of Hitler" I don't see you complaining about this on the List of German Americans or lists of Germans, but you have a problem with Polish lists doing the same thing on Wikipedia. This seems like an obvious double standard against Poles, and in favor of Germans, as I said before. Informationguy

First of all, it's not a list of Polish Americans but of Poles. Second, I don't care about list of Germans, because I'm not a German only a Pole. Third, no, I don't have to prove you that people are not Polish, you have to prove they are if you want to place them on the list.--SylwiaS | talk 04:10, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

It's not a list of only Poles, it includes Ethnic Poles which includes Polish-Americans. And if they have a Polish surname that is proof that they are in some way connected to being Polish. If they are in some way non-Polish, then their full ancestry should be included. Having a Polish family name is proof enough to list them there with the explanation that the person has a Polish family name. Informationguy

[edit] Homolka

So Oskar Homolka [1] is also Polish? And this place in Czech called Homolka [2] is in Poland really? This famous bohemian Homolka dynasty mentioned here is Polish as well? And this Czech cyclist Adam Homolka [3] must also be Polish? Great, names tell everything, indeed!--SylwiaS | talk 04:28, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

- Polish and Czech are both West-Slavic languages just like Slovakian, while Serb is South-West Slavic. Polish belongs to the Lechitic group of West-Slavic languages. Now, on to those people, first provide sourced information as to those people you listed as being completely Non-Polish without a trace of Polish origin (as you claim), provide the proofs. Perhaps, those people you listed are Polish or partly Polish. Names tell origins, so far you have not stated the origin of Homolka other than Czech citizens with the name, I can claim Wladyslaw Gomulka also as a source. Names do show origins. Informationguy

Old Polish language to modern Polish, Old English language to modern English. "I'll remind you that there is an Old Polish language and the modern Polish language, in that case, then the persons name would be in Old Polish, which an English-speaker would understand as being similar to Old English in the English language. And even just 200 years ago, the Polish language was different than what it is today, certainly 500 years ago, the Polish language was much different than what it is today."Informationguy

You mention European dynasties? Those dynasties such as the Queen of England's heritage or the Habsburg-Lorraine dynasty which ruled the Austrian Empire, had mixed heritages, and those heritages are listed. Informationguy

There are also places in Czech Republic with German names, does this mean the Czechs are all German? First give the sources that the name Homolka is Czech and not Polish, then move her to the Czech list then. Informationguy

Does Wladyslaw Gomulka have a Polish or a Czech name then? Informationguy

Gomułka not Gomulka has Polish spelling, but it's the only characteristic thing. The name doesn't have to be Polish at all. And it's not similar to Homolka in any way. I don't have to prove that the woman is not Polish, you have to prove that she is. Otherwise it's original research. So find her heritage or she must go.--SylwiaS | talk 04:56, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"Gomulka..doesn't have to be Polish at all", whats that supposed to mean. You didn't answer the question. Is the name Gomulka Polish? Yes or no, if no, then what language is it in? Informationguy

The claim that the name Gomulka is not similiar to Homolka is ridiculous, almost identical spelling, and the same sound, and the same suffix, the Polish "ka". These are significant evidence to her being Polish, you have to prove that the name Homolka is not Polish, because in light of the above evidence, it seems she has a Polish name. It's your original research that her name isn't Polish, I used Wikipedia's sources, and found that the name Homolka seems to be Polish. So if you prove that she's Czech and not Polish or partly Polish, then you move her to that list, or she should stay. Informationguy

You seem preoccupied with this Homolka person, it really does seem like she has a Polish name thats why she was added under the caption Polish name, so if her name is Czech and she's not Polish then move her to the Czech page, but give sources as to where you got the information. Informationguy

Gomułka spelled with ł is Polish, Gomulka may be from any other Slavic language. I don't have to move Homolka to Chech list. She's Canadian, it's where she belongs.--SylwiaS | talk 05:23, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"Chech list?" Did you mean Czech or Čech, the legendary founder of Bohemia, in Czech Republic or the Chechen people of the former USSR. Since Wikipedia does not have a "Chech list".

Thats completely wrong, if Gomułka is Polish, then Gomulka is also Polish not from any other Slavic language, I repeat if Gomułka is Polish, then Gomulka is also Polish not from any other Slavic language. This is because people in English-speaking countries don't offically write Polish names with the accents. Now you have yourself admitted that Gomulka is Polish, and it seems that Homolka is a Polish-Canadian (fully or partly). There is a thing called Ethnic Poles not living in Poland, writing in English or other languages, not just citizens of Poland who write every word and letter with Polish accents. So, if Homolka is not Czech, she seems to be Polish, she would then be a Polish-Canadian (fully or partly), you'll have to provide sources on her family name/tree to list her properly then. She seems Polish-Canadian. Informationguy

What I meant is that it's very possible that in other Slavic languages the name Gomulka would also be present. It's not popular in Poland, maybe somewhere else it is. Slavic languages are really very similar to each other. As well as the names. Usually names mean something. Like Smith in English. Homolka is a name of a place in Chech, maybe the place belonged to the Homolka family. I don't understand how Gomulka proves that Homolka is a Polish name, and in the same time the Czech name Homolka doesn't prove to you that Homolka is a Czech name.--SylwiaS | talk 05:46, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

All I seen is the name Wladyslaw Gomulka in the Polish language, of a famous Polish politican. The Russian/Ukrainian "sky" is different from the Polish "ski", etc. Slavic languages are very different to each other such as the Polish "ek" and "ak" compared to the Belarusian "ko" or the Ukrainian "uk" or "zky", for example when it comes to East-Slavic languages like Russian, Belarusian or Ukrainian compared to Polish. And your ridiculous statement "the Czech name Homolka doesn't prove to you that Homolka is a Czech name" makes no sense, show that it's a Czech name, there are German names of areas in Czech Republic but this doesn't prove that Czech's are Germanic rather than West-Slavic. Gomulka shows similiarity to Homolka being a Polish name, if Homolka is a Czech name, you bring her to the list of Czechs with an explanation of yours. Informationguy

Really Gomulka isn't popular in Poland? Is it in the Top 16 lists? or the Top 20 lists? Where is this proof that Gomulka isn't popular in Poland, or more importantly where's the proof that the name Gomulka isn't Polish? Informationguy

[edit] Aaron Kosminski

I checked Kosminski. He was born in former Poland's territory. At least this source says so. It doesn't make his ethnicity Polish, but the place of birth is correct. I'm not going to search all of them. If you want to add them, you bring the sources.--SylwiaS | talk 05:40, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Check the introduction it states anyone connected to the Polish land, language, ethnicity, culture or that is considered by others to be Polish is the main criteria for the list of Poles. It's not only a list Poles or complete or partial Polish ethnicity. Informationguy

Good then he was born in Poland then, he is "a person born on former or current Polish terrority", add him with the caption, born in former Polish territory. I never said Aaron's ethnicity was Polish. There is a big difference between Ethnic Polish and Polish citizen, Aaron Kosminski, Jack the Ripper suspect, is most likely descent of assimilated Polish-Jews, or perhaps his father or great-grandfathers was Polish-Catholic? Informationguy

If I want to add someone with a Polish name, the name is proof enough that the person is in some way connected to Poles. A name signifies heritage, either one's ethnicity or where one lived and changed it too the original name if available should be added. But a Polish name can be added with the explanation: Polish name. Why are there people on this list without Polish-names and without explanations as to how they are Polish? There should be an explanation given for this. Informationguy

They didn't write where exactly he was born, so I don't know if it's former or current Polish territory now. It was former Polish territory then, because Poland was partitioned. As to his parents or grand parents. I know that it may seem strange now, but they didn't intermarry back then. They started in 20th century. Maybe some in very late 19th century. And if they did intermarry, they stopped being Jewish. He would become a Catholic then or an atheist. At least it's very little probable that a Catholic would convert to Jewish religion. And a Polish Catholic would never name his son Aaron. It's just a thing of different cultures. Jews were just changing their surnames to have them sound Polish. It doesn't mean Polish ethnicity. Many Polish Jews had Jewish first names and Polish surnames. Similarly many Polish Jews changed their names once again when they emigrated to the USA. Just check the list of Polish Jews and see how many of them changed their names then. So now, if Kosminski had children, they wouldn't belong to the list. Because they would be neither of Polish ethnicity or born in Poland, though their names would sound Polish. I hope we can agree at least on that.--SylwiaS | talk 06:09, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"I know that it may seem strange now, but they didn't intermarry back then. They started in 20th century. Maybe some in very late 19th century. And if they did intermarry, they stopped being Jewish." They did intermarry back then also, Jacob Frank did, and if they did, they still were Partially-Jewish, just as when a German intermarries with a Pole, the child is Partial-German and Partial-Polish. Informationguy

"Because they would be neither of Polish ethnicity or born in Poland, though their names would sound Polish. I hope we can agree at least on that" No agreement on that ridiculous statement, a Polish family name indicates that the person's ancestors were connected with the Polish land, and Aaron Kosminski's children's ancestors were in some way connected with the Poland land/language so his children should also be on the List of Poles, if they made somewhat of an impact on people, such as all the people listed on the List of Poles have. Informationguy

Do more research, find out where exactly he was born. Informationguy

"He would become a Catholic then or an atheist." Again, I strongly disagree, they would become either a Catholic of Jewish parental origin or a Jewish person, if there mother is Jewish, (if their father would be Polish they would also be half-Polish ethnically) or a half-Jewish person if their father is Jewish. While, being an Atheist (one who does not believe in God or Gods) is a personal choice made by many people of former Catholic religious affliation.

"He would become a Catholic then or an atheist. At least it's very little probable that a Catholic would convert to Jewish religion." - This is a ridiculous claim, as it's commonly known that any Rabbi would accept a person with a Jewish mother as being Jewish, (however, if their father would be Polish they would also be ethnically half-Polish) while someone with a Jewish father, would be listed at least as half-Jewish. There are many Catholic born people who become Atheist. Not only Jews become Atheists, thats ridiculous. Informationguy

"And a Polish Catholic would never name his son Aaron." A Polish Catholic can name their son whatever they feel like, like Moonchild, it does not change their descent. How do you know, you have any proof that Polish Catholic's follow strict traditions? No, they don't, not all of them. Also, if he had a Jewish mother, he would be considered Jewish, (however, if their father would be Polish they would also be ethnically half-Polish) while a Jewish father, then half-Jewish. Informationguy

True, their child would be both Polish and Jewish. But a Polish Catholic father would very likely not agree that his child would go to synagogue, no matter what the Rabbi would say. A Polish Catholic father would not name his son Aaron. I don't say today, though it's still very rare. There are some Davids and I know one Samuel. So yes, the custom of giving Christian or Polish names is still observed. But in the beginning of 20th century the custom was observed strictly. My name is Sylwia. Believe me, there are very few Sylwias born in older generations. Even though it's just a Roman name. Still, it's not a name of a saint, nor of Polish origin, so it was very rare. If Kosminski had a Polish Catholic father, he wouldn't be named Aaron. If you think that surnames say something about ethnicity, than first names say even more.--SylwiaS | talk 07:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

"both Polish and Jewish". Wrong wording, it's half-Polish and half-Jewish. What about Leelee Sobieski, her father is Polish-Catholic and she goes to the synagogue, but if a Polish Catholic father would marry a Jewish woman then he would obviously care enough about her to let her culture also be shown to her child, of course neither you or I can speak for all people, because if we all use stereotypes, like "a Polish Catholic father would not name his son Aaron" then I can also say "All Poles are car thevies", both have equal validity. "So yes, the custom of giving Christian or Polish names is still observed." Many Christian names have Hebrew origins, so your claim is foolhardy, and who observes this? There's no rule for Poles to obey naming traditions, so no one has to observe this, it's not enforceable. Where's the proof that many or all Poles do this? Informationguy

There's no rule for Poles to have meatless Christmas Eve, and still no one eats meat. Those are traditions and customs, and they are observed.--SylwiaS | talk 07:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

How do you know if no Pole eats meat on Christmas Eve, there are Poles who don't obey those traditions and customs, those are cultural, not obeying them does not change one's Ethnicity or their birth religion. Poles can become Atheist, but if their born to parents of Polish-Catholic origins then they are listed as being being of Polish-Catholic descent regardless if they decided to become Atheists later. Poles that don't obey holiday customs still can be Ethnic Poles. There are some Poles who would spit in your face if you would say "all Poles do this or all Poles do that" to them. Informationguy

"If Kosminski had a Polish Catholic father, he wouldn't be named Aaron." - A Polish Catholic father who would care enough about a Jewish woman to marry her it's reasonable to think that he would respect the child's mother's wishes, and of course Poles do whatever they want they can give their son the name Moonchild or Israelovitch but that wouldn't change their Polish-Catholic origins. Informationguy

"If you think that surnames say something about ethnicity, than first names say even more". Again, I completely disagree, since people in English-speaking countries commonly give their children English first names (even if their immigrants from any European country) but keep their family name as to keep their ancestrial heritage alive and known. Having English first names but Polish family names among Poles in English-speaking countries is common, and usually to many English names there is a Polish translation such as Wladek (Walter). Informationguy

Yes, that's the problem. You try to apply modern English/American customs to old 19th/20th century customs in Poland.--SylwiaS | talk 07:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Also in modern Poland there are citizens with Polish first names, but non-Polish family names, such as Miller thats not a Polish name, while many Poles in Poland do still have a Polish family name, and yes, in this Century! Informationguy

I compared English/American customs to Polish-American customs, Polish-Americans are ethnic Poles who live in an English/American culture. And many english first names have Polish translations, while Polish family names are kept Polish by the spelling and letters not by accents on each letter, by Ethnic Poles in countries outside of Poland. Your claim about me is completely non-valid. Informationguy

Thats why I think that surnames are more important than first names. Even though, sometimes first names indicate ancestry, in that case, list their other ancestry. Informationguy

"It's just a thing of different cultures. Jews were just changing their surnames to have them sound Polish. It doesn't mean Polish ethnicity." Again, wrong extreme stereotyping. The truth is that some Jews changed their names to Polish ones, and they are listed as Polish-Jewish or Poles with Jewish parental ancestry.

Many Polish Catholics have Polish names, and they aren't Jewish. While many Polish-Jews have Yiddish (Germanic) names, and some have assimilated Polish names and there ancestries are documented.

Usually, a Polish name signifies Polish ethnicity, don't forget that most Jews came to Poland during 16-19 centuries, and in Poland there was the Baal Shem Tov who stressed with Hasidism that Jews should not assimilate into foreign culture, while in Germany there was the opposite with Reform Judaism, and the assimilation philosophies of Moses Mendelssohn being widely popular.

I know about it. That's why they didn't intermarry. But changing one's name doesn't mean assimilation.--SylwiaS | talk 07:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Changing one's name is a form of assimilation. A name signifies language connection, and that language was created by a specific group of ethnic people. Informationguy

Yiddish is mostly German and Hebrew, the Polish contribution seems smaller than the Russian, and on former Russian terrorities came Khazars.

"Many Polish Jews had Jewish first names and Polish surnames". I think more had Yiddish surnames and sometimes Polish first names, but of course, if one changed his name, then it's documented as to what it's changed to or you can research it. Informationguy

I really wonder how you want to research names changed hundreds years ago. And that in territories where buildings and all the papers were burnt. Try for example searching when Kosminski's family changed their name.--SylwiaS | talk 07:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

While I really wonder how you can prove those names were changed hundreds of years ago, it seems like a wild conspiracy theory. I really wonder how you have the gall to claim that "all the papers were burnt". Where is the proof of this? Papers have survived same with records and they are preserved and documented. Kosminski's family history can be found with "Ancestry tracing products that are available to the public, just type into msn.com search engine: ancestry tracing, or family tree research, and research into the areas were his ancestor has lived, ask Archeologists about the shape of the skulls and Historians about the historical significance of this. I'll remind you that there is an Old Polish language and the modern Polish language, in that case, then the persons name would be in Old Polish, which an English-speaker would understand as being similar to Old English in the English language. And even just 200 years ago, the Polish language was different than what it is today, certainly 500 years ago, the Polish language was much different than what it is today." You see, I have already answered your question several times throughout this talk, it seems that your purpose here was making as long as possible text without regards to the repetativeness of your questions, which I can only respond with a repetative answer. Informationguy

Also where is the proof that Aaron Kosminski's father was not a Polish-Catholic that married a Polish-Jewish woman? Please provide sources, not "maybes", because then I can also say that maybe he was half-Polish and half-Jewish on his mother's side. Informationguy

More Polish Jews had Yiddish surnames and sometimes Polish or Yiddish first names. Informationguy

"Because they would be neither of Polish ethnicity or born in Poland, though their names would sound Polish." No agreement reached. They would be listed as having been descended from Polish-Jews that changed their name, with their ancestrial name credited like Roman Polanski, his name was changed from Raymond Liebling to Roman Polanski. Still, this is a list of Poles not only Ethnic Poles although Ethnic Poles are also credited. Informationguy

Polanski is of partial Polish ethnicity. Also he grew up in Poland. Studied here and started his career here. He speaks Polish. He's a Pole.--SylwiaS | talk 07:17, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Polanski is Partly-Polish, and should be listed as a Partly-Polish person, since their is a difference between a Polish citizen and an Ethnic Pole. Those who you don't believe to be Ethnic Poles, prove that their not, for without proof your word is meaningless. Informationguy

They would be decendants of people born in Poland, unless you want to make it a list of only Ethnic Poles then they should not be on the list. And I never added Aaron Kosiminski which you seem to imply, but you did mention that he was born on former Polish land so he belongs on the list under the current definition. I added Joseph M. Kuklinski brother of Richard Kuklinski who had Polish-Catholic parents. Informationguy

Yes, they would have somewhere in their papers that someone from their family was a Polish Jew, but does it really mean that they should be listed as Poles? The list is very long already. There were separate lists made not to list everyone here. Like list of Polish painters, writers etc. Maybe there should be a separate list for people who had at least one ancestor born in Poland? This list is the main one, and it shouldn't list everyone, just the most important names.--SylwiaS | talk 07:17, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Then credit their full ancestry if they have someone in their family as Non-Polish. Thats the point here. Informationguy

I disagree with not listing everyone, the wording is wrong. Since how would it be possible to list millions of Poles on a single Wikipedia web page? No, it should list Poles who did things that made an impact on people (whether good or bad). Those separate lists made not to list everyone here are hyprocritical lists. Since those same people appear on both lists, such as list of Poles and list of Polish Jews. So why are you arguing for a separate list, when the same person is listed on both lists. Either, one person should be mentioned once on one list but then you would definately have to re-word the introduction into a stricter meaning or the page's criteria for being a Pole as it is. Go right ahead, if you want to attempt this feat, since this would logically seem to be what your trying to say with "separate lists" unless you don't really want to find an answer to this problem that you presented with your innuendo. To make more but smaller lists, but keep one person on one list, or to keep it how it is. There's the possiblities to dealing with this. Informationguy

[edit] People without Polish names and without any explanation as to how they are associated with Polish people or Poland

There are many on this list but it seems that people with Polish names are questioned. Thats a complete break from logic! I question the one's without Polish names and without any explanation as to how they are associated with Polish people or Poland, there are quite a few on the list. Informationguy

Well, some of the people simply live in Poland and were born here. Name really doesn't say everything. But show the people and we can add the information.--SylwiaS | talk 06:21, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Non-Poles with Polish names, if they were Part-Polish or Polonized Balts, Lithuanians, Germans, Jews, Gypsies, Ukrainians, Russians, Slovaks, Serbs, Sorbs, Czechs or anything else, their full ancestries would be attempted to be credited, this is an ongoing effort, not something that will take a short time. And assimilated Jews like Polanski's family would be listed as having been descended from Polish-Jews that changed their name, with their current name credited like Roman Polanski, his name was changed from his ancestrial Raymond Liebling to Roman Polanski. Still, this is a list of Poles whether by citizenship, birth on soil, with an ancestral connection with "Polish writing/speaking" people which can also refer to people with Polish names. The original author wrote not only Ethnic Poles but anyone with a connection to anything Polish, and of course Ethnic Poles are also credited. Informationguy

Of course, in Germany there's also Part-German or Germanized Balts, Sorbs, Serbs, Lithuanians, Poles, Jews, Gypsies, Ukrainians, Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks, etc. But the German lists are subject to very little criticism on Wikipedia. I do feel a pro-German bias against Poles here. Informationguy

"Name doesn't really say everything." - This is a change from your "name doesn't really say anything". A name definately says something, and it's definately a start to showing their origins. Since a name shows their connection to that language and/or people and it's worth knowing whether someone has a Polish family name or not. Informationguy

[edit] Ethnic Poles

Look at the many Poles of Polish ethnicity there's Richard Kuklinski I wasn't the one who edited that article you can check the page history there's sources there too, but here's also some sources: http://www.angelfire.com/amiga2/iceman , http://www.angelfire.com/amiga2/iceman/photo_album/ , http://www.angelfire.com/amiga2/iceman/richard/family.JPG . And don't forget to read the article, you can do that by clicking on it.

Thanks, but I didn't remove Kuklinski :)--SylwiaS | talk 06:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Polish names

A Polish name shows a Polish connection to the person, if no other information is immediately available other than a Polish name, it's worth saying that it's a Polish name on the List of Poles. "An ancestral connection with "Polish writing/speaking" people which can also refer to people with Polish names". Informationguy

[edit] Sources, please

Wikipedia policy doesn't say that other users have to find sources for the one who writes an article. It says that if someone wants to write an article, one should bring sources. So please, bring yours. It's a list of Poles = people of Polish ethnicity or born in Poland. So please, bring sources proving that. Otherwise, create a list of People wearing Polish names and move the people there. Good night.--SylwiaS | talk 07:38, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Please prove that those born in Poland are of Polish ethnicity, or they would just be people of citizenship nothing more. Otherwise, create a list of People with Polish citizenship, or in your style People wearing Polish citizenship, and move those people there. Since a Polish family name is a source showing there connection to Poles, not only citizenship should be counted. Otherwise, why are non-Jews with German family names on the list of Poles being listed as ethnic Germans, there are also ethnic Jews (listed as both a religious group and ethnicity on Wikipedia) or ethnic Ukrainians that are being ignored. A person of Polish citizenship is not always an Ethnic Pole, while an Ethnic Pole is not always a Polish citizen. While a Polish family name signifies a definate connection with Polonia. You should also prove that those people with Polish family names are not Polish if you claim that. For it seems, that people with Polish family names are ethnic Polish until proven otherwise. Informationguy

Anyone with an ancestral connection with "Polish writing/speaking" people which can also refer to people with Polish names, regardless as to how they got them. Of course, their complete ancestries should be credited so that no confusion abounds as to who is considered a Pole. A Polish name signifies connection in some way to "Polish writing/speaking people", and as you show know the inventors of the Polish language were most likely Ethnic Poles! A Polish family name is significant to someone being Ethnically Polish rather than just being a plain citizen or being born on Polish land. Since people born in Poland are listed, people with Polish family names should also be listed. Informationguy

Ok, let's make the other list. Now really good night.--SylwiaS | talk 07:53, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Make what other list. A separate list for Ethnic Poles, people born in Poland, partial Poles, assimilated Poles, Germanized Poles, etc. People with Polish family names seem to have just as much right to be listed as Poles, as some who were just born on current Polish land, like von Hindenburg. Informationguy

Where is the proof that the people with Polish family names are not Ethnic Poles as well, their family name is their identity too, not just those who speak Polish only because they live in Poland, there are documents surviving of people's family name histories. I would like to see you prove that anyone of the people with Polish family names are not Ethnic Poles as well. Even if you attempt this, you still haven't attempted, it still wouldn't change their connection to "Polish writing/speaking people", unless some editor figures out a way to change the wording of the introduction and/or to make more separate lists of Poles, with a person written once on one list. It would be quite a feat. Informationguy

[edit] John Paul II

A Wikipedia editor wrote that there is evidence that John Paul II, born Karol Józef Wojtyła, his mother "is of Jewish extraction". Informationguy

[edit] Clarification

1. I never said that Poles changing religion would stop being Polish. I said that Poles marrying Jews in 19th century would raise their kids as Catholics and give them Catholic names. How Polonia members call their kids today is irrelevant to this case. What names are given to Poles born in Poland even today you can check in Polish phone books. List of names of many millions of Poles should be enough for a proof. Unless you’re going to argue that only people with traditional Polish names are allowed to have a phone number. Jews in Poland today rarely give their children non-Polish first names. It’s a sign of assimilation. It wasn’t the case before the war. Anyhow, many people of 100% Jewish ethnicity have Polish surnames. Check here: Family_name#Ashkenazi_Jewish_surnames. Polish surname didn’t mean assimilation. Maybe you should also read History of the Jews in Poland. Also, here is more information on various topics: Intermarriage of Poles [4], intermarriage of Jews FAQ [5], examples of intermarriage – you can see how many kids of Jews and Catholics are raised as Jews even now, adhering to Judaism in such cases was much less probable in 19th century Poland [6], Jewish intermarriage statistics [7], here is the only one known convert to Judaism Valentine_Potocki as you can see he’s totally legendary. Some Polish Catholics did convert but to Protestantism.
2. The situation of Jews in Germany was much different than in Poland. It shouldn’t be taken as an example. In Poland Jews made about 8-10% of all Polish citizens. Before WWII about 10% of them were assimilated. It doesn’t mean that they all intermarried. It also doesn’t mean that in 19th century there was 10% of assimilated Jews in Poland, on the contrary.
3. Polish-Jewish origin means that someone is both partly Polish and partly Jewish. Polish Jew means an ethnic Jew living in Poland. If the Jew leaves Poland, he’s no more a Polish Jew only e.g. an American Jew. A member of American Polonia is not a member of English Polonia. Aaron Kosminski was a Jew born in Poland, similarly as Paul von Hindenburg was a German man born in Poland. Neither Kosminski’s nor Hinderburg’s children born abroad would be Polish. Their ethnicity wasn’t Polish, no matter how the name sounds.
4. Please, don’t change the description of who should be on the list of Poles and who shouldn’t be. Things like that should be discussed first.
5. There are some people on the list, who shouldn’t be there. It doesn’t justify adding more people without any references to their ethnicity. It only means that the list should be cleaned up.
6. I didn’t write that all papers were burnt only that all papers were burnt in the buildings that were burnt. Today professional historians have difficulties with investigating some facts referring to WWII history, and you claim that you can trace the genealogy tree of anyone born here even hundreds years ago. Well, good luck.
7. Many Poles have names that you wouldn’t consider Polish, as you seem to stick to the general trend as a strict rule. It doesn’t mean that the people are not Poles.
8. I read authors like Mikołaj Rej and Shakespeare, or rather I should say, I’m not 6 year old, and I accomplished my education.
9. Please, don’t disrupt my post. Give your answer below.--SylwiaS | talk 08:23, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

1. "I said that Poles marrying Jews in 19th century would raise their kids as Catholics and give them Catholic names". There's no proof of this, some Poles marrying Jews in the 19th century would either convert to Judaism or raise their children as Jews.
2. "Polish-Jewish origin means that someone is both partly Polish and partly Jewish." - No it doesn't, it means a Jewish person of Polish citizen and has been referred to various times like this.
3. "If the Jew leaves Poland, he’s no more a Polish Jew only e.g. an American Jew." - No, his ancestors would still have been connected to Poland.
4. "Unless you’re going to argue that only people with traditional Polish names are allowed to have a phone number." - A telephone number means nothing to ethnicity, a black African can also have a phone number listed in Poland and a black African can also be a Polish citizen.
5. "Anyhow, many people of 100% Jewish ethnicity have Polish surnames" So what, they would still be connected via ancestry to Poland, and many people of 100% Polish ethnicity that are not Jewish also have Polish family names.
6. "Jews in Poland today rarely give their children non-Polish first names. It’s a sign of assimilation" A family name is a much stronger sign of assimilation than a first name.
7. "Polish surname didn’t mean assimilation", Again, your wrong. A family name is a much stronger form of assimilation than a given name.
8. "The situation of Jews in Germany was much different than in Poland. It shouldn’t be taken as an example" Again, I strongly disagree, many Jews in Poland, recently came from other countries such as Germany, Russia, Ukraine, England and France in the 16-19 centuries, so the situation of Jews in Germany should be compared to be seen how different it was compared to Poland.
9. "A member of American Polonia is not a member of English Polonia" Polonia means Poles not living in Poland, and Polish-Americans are not in the British-Poles section.
10. "Neither Kosminski’s nor Hinderburg’s children born abroad would be Polish. Their ethnicity wasn’t Polish, no matter how the name sounds." - Again, I strongly disagree, Kosminski's name is Polish not "Polish-sounding" as you claim but Kosminski is definately a Polish family name. A Polish family name (such as Kosminski) is a much stronger form of assimilation and much stronger connection to the Polish language than just a Polish given (first) name or just a citizenship. Since a family name is a much stronger form of assimilation than a given name, Kosminski's children would have their ancestors more connected to Poland than Hindenburg's. So Kosminski's children would also belong on the list of Poles.
11. "Many Poles have names that you wouldn’t consider Polish, as you seem to stick to the general trend as a strict rule. It doesn’t mean that the people are not Poles." Again, you made other wrong statement about me. Any family name that is Polish is Polish, while any family name that is not Polish, I would not consider Polish, or only family name that is Partly-Polish I wouldn't consider to be fully Polish. Just like I said before, those without Polish family names in their family history would not be Ethnic Poles, but they could be Polish citizens but not Ethnic Poles.
12. The word Pole, as commonly used in society not on this website, can mean having ancestors who were Polish citizens (assimilated or not) or Ethnic Poles, either partly or fully, you seem to ignore this aspect when you make your stereotypical statements.
13. Some people argue that birth on Polish ground is equal to citizenship, while it seems that having a Polish family name is a more solid foundation to being connected to the Polish language and/or ethnicity.
14. Polish-Catholics also became Atheists, it seems that more Ethnic Poles changed from Roman Catholicism to Atheism, rather than from Roman Catholicism to Protestanism as your innuendo seems to suggest.
15. Also where is your justification for changing the introduction?
16. I also never disrupted your posts, I gave answers below, so any innuendo suggesting that I didn't give my answers below is non-valid. Informationguy

I gave you many sources to read. So please, read them and bring sourced contre-arguments. Not your WP:POV.--SylwiaS | talk 19:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• I gave you many sources to read. So read Informationguy's posts and you will see the sources to my arguments. You however, many times have brought your own WP:POV (Point of View) without sources. Informationguy

[edit] Historical territory vs. current territory

Historical territory means the territory that was considered Polish in times when someone was born, even if it was under occupation. People born in Wrocław or Szczecin in 19th century shouldn't be added here, because the cities are not considered Polish in reference to 19th century.--SylwiaS | talk 09:02, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I think that the part Germans born on current Polish land is irrelevant. Germans born in the places that were considered Polish should stay, because they were born in Poland as all the other people considered citizens of Poland. The other names should be deleted. E.g. Gabriel Farenheit was born in free Poland, so he belongs here. Paul_von_Hindenburg was born in German occupied Polish town, so he belongs here too. But Werner von Blomberg was born in Stargard Szczeciński that was a part of Kingdom of Prussia long before the Partitions of Poland, so he shouldn't be here. Similarly Manfred von Richthofen who was born in Wrocław doesn't belong to the list.--SylwiaS | talk 09:37, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be easier to just put them all under one section called "Ethnic Germans born in Poland" ? That way we can just put them all there and stop the controversy that might insue from German nationalists. Antidote 16:31, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Why are German nationalists given more importance than the listing of other ethnic groups, why would you favor only the "German nationalists". Informationguy

....because they are the ones who are likely to complain....Antidote 18:47, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• Anyone has the possibility of complaining, this should not influence you to treating the Germans as more important than any other ethnicity. Informationguy

[edit] Introduction

Informationguy put:

"This is a partial list of people who made an impact on a society (whether in a good or bad way) and are considered to be Poles by being in any way connected to the Polish (former or current land), language, ethnicity, or culture.

In the interest of fairness and accuracy, the minority of persons of mixed heritage have their respective ancestries credited.

This list has been subject to dispute as to which persons may properly be listed as Poles, due to Polish terrorities having been at various times occupied by foreign countries, and due to the spirited discussions of ethnic identity across the world."

SylwiaS put:

"This is a partial list of famous Polish or Polish-speaking/writing persons, or persons born on historically Polish soil.

In the interest of fairness and accuracy, a minority of persons of mixed heritage have their respective ancestries credited.

This list has been subject to dispute as to which persons may properly be listed as Poles, due to Polish terrorities having been at various times occupied by foreign countries, and due to the spirited discussions, in recent years, of ethnic identity in the United States, Canada, the Americas, Europe, Asia, Oceania and Africa."

• The minority of persons of mixed heritage should be credited, not "a minority", suggesting that only some people of mixed heritage would be credited, rather all should be credited in the interest of accuracy.

• With Sylwia's introduction, all those people with Polish family names would have to be immediately removed, where was the consensus reached before Sylwia did this? Sylwia clearly changed the introduction so that no one with a Polish family name could be included, despite a family name being a stronger form of assimilation than a given name, and despite a Polish family name showing a visible connection to the Polish language and/or ethnicity

• Whether this connection is current or ancestrial should be described in the introduction, but if only a Polish family name is known, that is still a visible connection to the Polish language and/or ethnicity.

• People with ancestors born on former Polish land or ancestors having Polish family names should also be on the List of Poles.

• Why did you not first reach a consensus on the talk page before changing the introduction, since you definately are waiting for a consensus to be reached before you edit the German section of the list of Poles. Thats favoritism. Informationguy

You changed the introduction. I only restored the previous version. I couldn't simply revert it without destroying other changes that were made to the list in the meantime. And yes, the introduction excluded people without Polish ethnicity, and not born on Polish land. So you shouldn't have added people whose only connection to Poland it through their surname. Please, don't change the list until we reach consensus here.--SylwiaS | talk 19:12, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

• I can also argue that you should not include people whose only connection to Ethnic Poles is being born on land created by Ethnic Poles (Poland), so you should not have included those only with Polish citizenship if I should not have included those with Polish family names. It's simple logic. Informationguy

• If I shouldn't include Polish family names, you shouldn't include Polish citizenship. Informationguy

• You should rather say: I believe you shouldn't, rather than you shouldn't. Informationguy

• Antidote agreed with Informationguy's version, so what should be done now? A vote or what? Informationguy

I cannot see Antidote's agreement.--SylwiaS | talk 19:32, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

"(cur) (last) 18:46, 7 January 2006 Antidote (put back pruned introduction)" in the history section. - Informationguy

Here is the source on the history section http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Poles&diff=34265790&oldid=34256090 it seems that Antidote agreed with my version until Sylwia changed it. Informationguy

I can't see the big difference, I just thought InformationGuy's was good enough. Antidote 20:57, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

It makes a big difference because if Sylwia's version stays, then those with Polish family names get deleted. So you want to stay neutral? Sylwia has changed the introduction again. Informationguy

So wait a minute, you just said "I thought InformationGuy's was good enough." and yet Sylwia changes the introduction again, then later you claim to stay neutral. Where's the consensus? Informationguy

[edit] Ethnic Poles living in other countries

• Ethnic Poles in other countries have Polish family names while having English given names in English-speaking countries.

• English given names include Aaron, not only Jews are given this name. So, this is a logical conclusion that an Ethnic Pole could have had the given name of Aaron in 19th century England.

• Ethnic Poles in English-speaking countries adjust to the culture of the English-speaking society where they live in.

• So, commonly given names in the English culture, such as Aaron, Richard, Joseph, Paul, Thomas, David, Carl, Philip, Benjamin or Daniel, could have been given to an Ethnic Pole living in an English-speaking country in Any Century, I repeat in Any Century.

• So, where is the proof that Aaron Kosminski's father is not of Polish-Catholic descent? Where is the proof?

• Aaron Kosminski's children would have a connection to the Polish language and/or ethnicity, even if they changed their family names, the connection would remain because they had an ancestor that had a Polish family name, so they should also be on the list.

Informationguy

All would be fine if not for the fact that Aaron Kosminski was born in Poland, not England. And his first name was given to him in Poland according to Polish rules, not in England according to English rules. So English rules do not apply. And are you really sure it was a popular name in 19th century England?--SylwiaS | talk 19:01, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

How do you know that he didn't change his given Polish name to an commonly given name in England like Aaron. Please show your proof that he was born with the given name Aaron. Please note, that this still would not change his connection to the Polish language and/or ethnicity because of his Polish family name. Informationguy

Also know that if he got a given name in Poland like Homer, it wouldn't make him a Greek, it could mean that his parents liked that specific type of poetry and that would be the justification for that given name just like the name Aaron given in England, USA or Poland would not make anyone Jewish, they could be Christians with a respect to the Ancient founders of Christianity or it could have been fashionable to where they lived, or where they were moving their residential location to. Or they could have done what they just felt like doing. Informationguy

Polish family names in their family history are a much more reliable and evidential source to know if they have a connection with the Polish language and/or ethnicity. Therefore, family names are much more important when it comes to connections with language and/or ethnicity than given names. Informationguy

Please, just source your last statement. As to Kosminski, we know that he was a Jew. It was sourced. Anyhow, he's already on the list of Polish Jews, so I'll delete him from here. No need to double him. As to the introduction. To reach concensus you need to have 80% support, so 2/3 is not enough.--SylwiaS | talk 21:16, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm staying neutral on the heading. Also, if we can reach a consensus, then I think we should removed all Polish Jews already listed on List of Polish Jews. I honestly don't see the need in repeating so many people. Antidote 21:38, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Some Jews certainly may be moved, but some should stay. Some of them like Brzechwa or Leśmian are ones of our greatest poets. This list should enlist the most famous Poles, not necessarily ethnic Poles whom nobody in Poland knows. Ethnicity really isn't that important, rather what the person means to Poles. That's why I'm against adding all the people here, without even knowing who they are or if they are Poles at all. This doesn't serve anything. The really important Poles will disappear among long lists of names that mean nothing to us. Well, I'll ask this. Would the British want to have on their list of the most important writers, artists, politicians etc someone called John Porter? A musician quite popular in Poland who immigrated here years ago and nobody in Britain heard about him? Would Germans like to add Steffen Möller? A popular actor in Poland who came for two week holidays some 10 years ago and decided to stay? Would Greeks care about adding Eleni? I understand that Jews build their lists like that. Otherwise, because of the specific history of their nation, they couldn't have any important people before the establishment of Israel. But our situation is different. We have our country, and Poles are the people who were born here, and lived here, or eventually had to leave, but where still important to Poles for some reasons. Not every single person who has at least one drop of Polish blood in their veins. Come on, do we really believe in something like that? It's quite rasist to me. I don't have 100% Polish blood, should I feel worse? Well, I'm of the opinion that blood is not divided into nations only Rh groups and it really doesn't matter. Just look what the list looks like now? There is no Brzechwa or Leśmian anymore, but there are people like Grażyna Miller, Dagmara Dominczyk, and who are all the football players? Isn't it obvious that Poles don't play football? Or rather what Poles call football, Americans call soccer? Then on list of famous Polish football players there should be Lato, Boniek and Dudek, not John Matuszak or Jim Grabowski. If Informationguy wants to make a list of famous Polonia, he's free to do so. But this is list of Poles, not Americans. Brzechwa and Leśmian are Poles, Matuszak and Grabowski aren't. You can write it as trivia somewhere, but not list them on the main list of famous Polish people.--SylwiaS | talk 06:07, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• There is a difference between a citizen of Poland (anyone can be one), and an Ethnic Pole (not by choice). Why was the Ethnic Poles article deleted while the Ethnic Germans article stays? Also, if there is a list of Germans born in Poland with German names, the same should apply to all other ethnicities. Informationguy

[edit] Artists

Ok, I'm finished for now. I'll look at the list once again tomorrow. I still have some doubts. The same may be done to some other lists e.g. musicians or literature. But not everything at once. Please, adding article/stub remember to announce it here. Also, here you may check our subcategories for artists Category:Polish artists.--SylwiaS | talk 04:13, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where was the consensus reached before SylwiaS changed the introduction again?

Where was the consensus reached? She changed the introduction without a majority vote.

• The introduction should stay until more than just one person (SylwiaS) say that her introduction is better than mine. Informationguy

• Censor what you want, goodnight !!! Informationguy

[edit] Polish Americans

Here is a very interesting list that I have found just now, but Informationguy knew about it all the time as the article's history clearly shows List of Polish Americans. So now, you take all your Polish American killers, footballplayers, actors etc there, and let Poles have their list. It's unthinkable that there is no more place for great Poles, and I have to move them to separate lists, while tens of people not familiar to Poles are added to the article. Go and create lists for Polish Canadian, Polish Brits and whatever you like. There's no place for all the people here. And no, I don't object to killers only. I object to everyone who wasn't famous in Poland. And yes, there are black Poles in Poland, and they are Poles!--SylwiaS | talk 06:47, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, there are Polish citizens that are black. I also added Polish citizens to the list which you fail to mention, not just Ethnic Poles outside of Poland. Informationguy

• Also, you shouldn't have the same person on two lists, but you justify your claim by saying that if they meet your political agenda of what a Pole should be then and only then would you agree to having the same person on two lists. You said something about making exceptions to two names on a list! Thats complete hyprocrisy, ether keep your word, or admit that your a hyprocrite pushing your own Point of View (opinion) of what the definition of Pole is. Unless we have separate categories for citizens, ethnics, and other connections to what a Pole is being defined as. Too bad no one can write on the introduction simply: This is a list of Poles. Informationguy

[edit] Racism against Polish family names

• Since SylwiaS both claimed and gave innuendo, (why not just come forth as say so), that I'm a racist, I can state that SylwiaS is racist against Polish family names and is in favor of a pro-German ethnic agenda. Informationguy

• Hey at least there's freedom of speech in this country. Informationguy

[edit] Voting

Who should be listed on the list of Poles? I don’t mean all the additional lists, only this one here that is the main list for the most famous Poles.--SylwiaS | talk 09:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

1. People born in Poland or immigrants to Poland’s territory including periods when Polish territory was occupied by other countries – Partitions and wars.

• Support--SylwiaS | talk 09:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support--logologist|Talk 10:02, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support -- Elonka 10:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support Halibutt 16:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

2. People born in current Polish territory in times when the place was not in Poland in relevant period. E.g. Wrocław or Szczecin in times of Partitions.

• Oppose--SylwiaS | talk 09:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose. (I assume you refer to such persons if they were not ethnically Polish.) logologist|Talk 10:02, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Of course. Those two are currently on the list Werner von Blomberg , born 1878, Stargard Szczeciński; Manfred von Richthofen, born 1892, Wrocław. It was already agreed with Antidote that I may remove them, but since I decided to do the voting, I thought it would be better to have a concensus on it.--SylwiaS | talk 10:21, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• Weak Support--Elonka 10:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Depends, people born in Warsaw in 1943 were not born in Republic of Poland, eventhough they might perfectly fit the definition of a Pole Halibutt 16:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Warsaw goes with the first question. It was occupied Polish territory. Here are only places that weren't Polish before occupation, partition etc. So e.g. during partitions Poznań is considered Polish, while Wrocław or Smoleńsk are not.--SylwiaS | talk 23:32, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

3. People not born in Poland themselves, being born to Polish emigrants, but while living abroad still cared and supported Poland, were speaking/writing Polish etc.

• Support--SylwiaS | talk 09:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support--logologist|Talk 10:04, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• It depends -- This would depend for me on how someone self-identified themselves. In a case of someone from the Czartoryski family (such as August Czartoryski), born in France because their family was exiled from Poland, I can agree that yes, they were still definitely Polish. However, there's also someone like me: my father was born in Warsaw, from a long line of notable szlachta, but had to flee Poland because of World War II. I was born in California. I'm notable, I grew up surrounded by Polish language and food and culture, I definitely support Polish causes, I've been to Poland a couple times, I have done some public writing about Polish things, and I can speak and read a bit of Polish, but, in my personal opinion, it would still feel a bit odd to have my name on a "List of Poles", even though there are indeed certain circumstances in which I might say, "I am Polish." Ultimately though, I identify myself as an American of Polish ancestry. But I'll go along with whatever the consensus is. Elonka 10:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support, but agree with Elonka. She would quality as Polish American, I think, and so quite a few people who would fall into this section would belong not only on a List of Poles but on a List of some other nationality or a mix.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support Halibutt 16:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

4. People born to Polish emigrants – at least one parent of Polish ethnicity, but without any evidence that they spoke Polish etc.

• Oppose--SylwiaS | talk 09:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose--logologist|Talk 10:04, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose-- Elonka 10:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Neutral - see my explanation at No. 6 below Halibutt 16:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

5. People born to Polish emigrants – at least one grand parent of Polish ethnicity, without evidence as above.

• Oppose--SylwiaS | talk 09:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose--logologist|Talk 10:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Neutral - see my explanation at No. 6 below Halibutt 16:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

6. People who have any connection to Polish ethnicity, even one ancestor many generations back, or only alleged connections. E.g. Friedrich Nietzsche, John Kerry.

• Oppose--SylwiaS | talk 09:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose--logologist|Talk 10:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose-- Elonka 10:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Neutral - we might either exclude them, or list them under a separate section. Exluding them would most probably lead to constant problems with anon users adding them back, while listing them under a separate category would be a decent idea for me. But as I said, we could go either way here. Halibutt 16:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, if someone insists we can have a separate list for them. E.g. famous people with Polish heritage. They are famous people, and they may be partly Polish, but you would never consider them famous Poles, so they should go to another place.--SylwiaS | talk 23:32, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

7. People whose connection to Polish ethnicity is not confirmed but they have Polish surnames, or whose surnames may seem Polish. E.g. Howard Scott Warshaw, Andy Warhol, Joseph L. Mankiewicz, Paul Mazursky, Adrien Brody, Robert Siodmak, Zeev Suraski, Sergei Sakhnovski, and all the list of American football players, and wrestlers with Polish surenames [8].

• Oppose--SylwiaS | talk 09:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose--logologist|Talk 10:08, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose-- Elonka 10:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Depends on the case. Name is not everything, especially that Polish names are common among Jews, Ukrainians, Belarusians and so on. Halibutt 16:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

8. Children of emigrants, but not ethnical Poles, e.g. Ariel Sharon.

• Oppose--SylwiaS | talk 09:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Oppose--logologist|Talk 10:08, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• How is this question different from the other categories listed above? Elonka 10:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually you answered the question yourself writing about your upbringing above. Jews in Poland observed very different customs than Poles. There was almost no assimilation. It started to change in 20th century and so before WWII about 10% of Jews were assimilated, what in practice means that they spoke Polish. So imagine, if people lived for centuries in Poland without even learning the language, how different were those two words. There are chances that Polish parents would pass some Polish traditions to their children, but Jewish parents would pass only Jewish traditions that they cultivated here and would cultivate elsewhere. Their children would know that their parents were born in Poland, but they wouldn't feel Polish, not even they would consider their parents Polish. Similarly you can check Volga Germans. Their children wouldn't be Russian by any streach.--SylwiaS | talk 11:59, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh, the article about Volga Germans didn't discribed the whole story. Here's a bit more [9]. Generally in 19th century they lived in separate communes.--SylwiaS | talk 12:16, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

9. Anyone who is widely recognised by majority of Poles as a famous Pole.

• Support--SylwiaS | talk 09:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support--logologist|Talk 10:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support-- (as long as there are clear references) Elonka 10:48, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Conditional support as long as he considers himself a Pole as well.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support. As to what Piotrus wrote - not all cases are as clear as the one with Domeyko or Szopen. If we wanted confirmation of all cases, we'd have to exclude for instance most of notable people of Middle Ages. Halibutt 16:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

10. Anyone listed in the Polski Słownik Biograficzny

• Support--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support - though we should remember that it does not list all of the notable people. Recently I discovered that it had no mention of Stanisław Grzesiuk, for instance. Halibutt 16:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support--SylwiaS | talk 23:32, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

11. Any naturalized citizen.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• Support--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 15:11, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Being a citizen of Poland is equal to being a Pole for me. Halibutt 16:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)
• Support--SylwiaS | talk 23:32, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Comments

[edit] By Informationguy

• I want a vote on the introductory paragraph, so to be perfectly clear as to who's opinion wins. Informationguy

• None of those people have Polish family names "but they have Polish surnames" Wrong, those family names are only Partly-Polish. Informationguy

"or whose surnames may seem Polish". Wrong again, most of those family names are only Partly-Polish indicating that those people are only vaguely connected to Poland.

• Most Ethnic Poles have fully Polish family names. Informationguy

Howard Scott Warshaw, Andy Warhol, Joseph L. Mankiewicz, Paul Mazursky, Adrien Brody, [[Robert Siodmak, Zeev Suraski, Sergei Sakhnovski Those don't seem Polish, some are Partly-Polish names, this one is only Polish at the "Mazur" part like "Mazursky" but it has the Russian/Ukrainian "sky".

• Sakhnovski, the "v" added is Russian, and the affix seems visible Russian as well but it's partly Polish because of the ski. Informationguy

• Adrien Brody, how exactly is this name Polish?

• Joseph L. Mankiewicz, the "man" part seems to be of Germanic origin, i.e. Hofmann, Reichmann, etc. It seems to be Partly-Polish. Informationguy

• I clearly stated that there is a difference between fully Polish family names, and family names that are Partly-Polish either at the affix or the suffix. Yet again, Sywlia shows her disregard for the truth and denies the existence of visible Polish family names. Informationguy

There are:

• Fully Polish family names

and

• Part Polish family names (either at the suffix or affix)

If you continue to repeat your ignorance, this is known as a copy and paste situation and we need a referee.

• And what about people with a more visible Polish ethnic connection like having a Polish family name! That counts for either having a visible connection with Poles and/or the Polish language and/or Polish ethnicity.

• It seems that according to Sywlia, being Polish is a choice. Informationguy

• While in the life of an Ethnic-Pole, being Polish is not a choice. Informationguy

[edit] By Piotrus

Quite a few of those where I voted oppose, I meant 'they are not enough', however obviosuly they are not meant as 'they disqualify' a person from being Polish. I think that as long as a person qualifies into at least one of the statements we vote for, he or she is a Pole - but if that person does not fit into any of those, this case should be discussed here and not added to the main article unless a consensus is reached for an exception.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:54, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. One doesn't have to fit all the categories, but just one of them to be considered a Pole. On the other hand, I really think that all the people who fit at least one of the categories should be listed as famous Poles in their own domain e.g. famous painter, writer etc, so Grazyna Miller may be listed on the List of Polish writers if she's indeed famous, but she shouldn't be listed here, because she's not one of the most famous Poles.--SylwiaS | talk 01:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] By Sylwia

This list should be for the most famous Poles only. Not for the most famous people with Polish heritage, or all the famous Poles. People of Polish heritage may be very famous, notable etc, but if they weren’t famous as Poles, then why should they go here? We can have various separate lists, and actually I think we should make them. The List of Polish painters should list all famous Polish painters, but on the main list here only the most notable should be listed. Not all of them just because they are Poles. On the other hand there is the List of famous Polish Americans and many people may be listed there. Being a famous Polish American doesn’t make one a famous Pole. We really have enough famous Poles to fill any list, and here we should choose only the most notable for Poles. We can also have people on two or more lists. For example if someone was both a famous writer and a famous painter, they may be on both lists, and additionally if the person was actually Wyspiański or Witkacy they should be listed on the main one too.

But we should also be reasonable. Being a Polish painter doesn't make one a famous Polish painter, or one of the most notable Polish painters. Well, I used to work for several Polish colour magazines, also for three years I was a chief editor of one of Polish niche magazines. I can be found in internet and it may be sourced. But I'm not a famous Pole, and it would be silly to claim otherwise, so I definitely shouldn't be listed on any of the lists as e.g. a famous journalist. So please, let's not create the longest lists in the world only because many people may be found in internet.--SylwiaS | talk 01:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

To Informationguy - I am really glad that people of Polish heritage are famous and make their career abroad, and I cheer them heartily, but they are not Poles, they chose otherwise. They live where they live, because they decided so, the name can be changed. Anyone could change their name into a Polish one in the past, and everyone may change their name into not a Polish one now if they wish so. It was never proved that Nietzsche had indeed any Polish roots, but he liked Poles very much and used to claim that his family’s surname used to be Niecki. It’s very kind of him, but it doesn’t make him a famous Pole. He could have come to Poland and live here, he’d be a famous Pole then, but he didn’t. It was his choice. And all the Americans may come to live in Poland if they wish, if they don’t do that, they are not Poles. Something like Polish blood really doesn’t exist. Our blood is not different than that of people of other nationalities. And we are a nation, not a race, so there is no distinguishing semblance of Poles etc. Please, you are still welcome to contribute into the article with the respect of the voting’s outcome, and post your comments here. I also believe that your hard work to find famous people of Polish heritage will be very helpful in expending the List of Polish Americans and the List of people of Polish heritage if you wish to create one.--SylwiaS | talk 01:04, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] By Informationguy

• I have clearly stated that you have the choice (and I do not) (since you won the vote) not to list people on the Wikipedia List of Poles who have a visible connection to the Polish language and/or ethnicity. Fine, you own the list, so do what you want since you got the vote. However, I wanted to point out on the talk page here that a Polish family name is a more stronger visible connection to the Polish language and/or ethnicity than a Polish citizenship, since a Polish citizenship would be the only thing that makes someone Polish, while being an Ethnic Pole has nothing to do with citizenship. Informationguy

• Please inform me, if bold text is not allowed. Please inform me, if me losing the vote also means I cannot write on the talk page. Informationguy

[edit] The difference between Fully Polish family names and Part-Polish family names

Lets talk affix and suffix! Informationguy

[edit] Vote on Introductory Paragraph

Lets have a vote on the introductory paragraph, for it seems the most important in describing the definition of Pole.

Do you prefer the detailed introduction I gave which credits all ancestries (in the cases where there are any):

Or do you prefer Sylwia's introduction of only citizenship and supposed culture:

Informationguy

Ok, fine, congratulations on the winner of the democracy! Now, you are symbolically handed the key to the web portal, do as you wish!

Informationguy

I am happy to vote on this, but I'm a bit confused at the moment as to what I would be voting on. Could you please supply the two alternative wordings? Also, I can follow the discussions a bit better with standardized signatures, so if you could please end each comment with ~~~~, that would make things a bit easier to understand. Thanks! :) Elonka 11:01, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• The vote is finished, what more do you want? SylwiaS gets her opinion, and thats that. My opinion is I don't agree with a single word SylwiaS says but hey, it's a democracy. Apparently citizenship means everything to her, while a Polish family name is trash to SylwiaS. Informationguy

[edit] I wanted clarity and explanation, you only wanted citizenship and feeling

If a person has a Polish family then that person has a connection to the Polish language and/or ethnicity, you may care about citizenship, while I care more about a family name. There would be Polish-Americans not just Americans, Polish-Americans. Anyway, you got two votes, so you can edit the list the way you want. I wanted a clear list detailing every ancestry, if there is one while you only cared for citizenship and feeling (i.e. "if a person loves being Polish"). Informationguy

Hey, just because you got the votes doesn't mean I can't write on the talk:page, or does it? Informationguy

A name isn't everything, either way. There are many Poles in Poland today with German names, because a German ancestor became Polonized. There are Poles outside Poland with non-Polish names, because such names seemed more practical in those individuals' current circumstances. logologist|Talk 11:34, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• A Citzenship isn't everything, either way, also, but you don't care. I suggest you put in "citizens" only, since a citizenship isn't everything, while a family name is a direct VISIBLE connection. Informationguy

Most importantly, review all my posts since many types of different questions were answered there and you are deliberately ignoring my previous answers by asking questions that were already answered many, many paragraphs earlier, your questions or opinioned statements I have already answered, just scroll up and read. You want me to simply copy-and-paste? Why don't you bother to read. Informationguy

• What about Ethnic Poles in Germany? You never conceived of that fact did you? Since your giving inneundo that only foreign influence can come into Poland, you ignore the fact, that yes, Ethnic Poles can come into Germany or Austria as well.You state your opinion as a fact, it's not a fact, you should begin with I believe, or it seems to me. For I disagree completely with every word you say with the arguements I listed above in the many paragraphs of argument with SylwiaS. Repeating myself would only be cut-and-paste. Why do you always ignore family history, "because such names seemed more practical in those individuals' current circumstances" this does not prove anything and goes to show your ignorance in ignoring their family history, thats where their Ethnicity information is. However, having a Polish family name is very important because it shows a visible connection, more than anything else to being connected with the Polish language and/or ethnicity. I would not consider someone in Poland with a German family name to be a fully Ethnic Pole.

• I would not consider someone outside of Poland without a Polish family name to be a fully Ethnic Pole either, unless prove is shown that they changed their birth Polish family name. You claim they are Poles, they are not, you only consider them Poles, just as I have the right not to consider them Poles. Again, you are unclear, are you talking about Ethnic Poles or just Polish citizens, since the Ethnic Poles list was deleted. A Polish family name is a stronger connection to the Polish language and/or ethnicity than a meaningless citizenship. A citizenship is a choice, a family name is much less a choice and is more visible via the family history. The argument is this "being Polish is a choice" vrs "being Ethnic Polish is not a choice". So bring the proof, not your plain opinioned statements dressed up as facts.

• A Polish family name is a much more stronger connection to the Polish language and/or ethnicity than just a plain-citizenship. This statement is the logical foundation for the support for listing persons with Polish family names. Informationguy

[edit] August Kubizek

This man, August Kubizek he was a personal friend of Adolf Hitler and he would fit well in the controversial persons category since he either has a Polish or Czech name. Informationguy

Someone should add August Kubizek to the list of Poles because he either has a Polish or Czech name. Informationguy

[edit] Logical foundation for the support of Polish family names

• This should be stated again, for I feel that the same ignorant statements are being repeated over and over again, it's all pro-citizenship vrs. family names.

This is the statement below:

• A Polish family name is a much more stronger connection to the Polish language and/or ethnicity than just a plain-citizenship. This statement is the logical foundation for the support for listing persons with Polish family names. Informationguy

Do you think that Józef Haller de Hallenburg, Leon Schiller, Władysław Anders, Juliusz Zulauf, Józef Unrug or Aleksander Brückner were less Polish for having German names? logologist|Talk 13:00, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Or Tadeusz Manteuffel. I disagree with Informationguy, not to mention that his abusive use of headings is making this talk page almost unreadable. We have a vote going above that clearly illustrates that Informationguy is a solo warrior here, and from reading the text above I cannot fail to notice that he fails to cite any sources in support of his personal opinion, which does look like his original definition. Nonetheless if both (?) sides would like to have another vote on the lead paragraph with clear definition of 'who is a Pole', then we could finally end this once and for all. If any side wants more comments, I'd like to remind you of the Wikipedia:Request for comments section for articles.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 16:31, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

• Where exactly would be my "personal opinion", other than the logical conclusion that the subject of family names are more important than citizenship. Other than that, I have cited many sources which goes against your claim that "fails to cite any sources. Look at ALL my posts, I have cited many sources. " Yes I think they were most likely not fully Polish by ethinicity for having German names. But anyone can be a citizen. Again, those people you listed are Poles by choice, while an Ethnic Pole is a Pole not by choice. We already had a vote yet you seem to want to keep the introduction despite me agreeing that you won the vote. See above, you repeatedly ignored my comments. "The vote is finished, what more do you want? SylwiaS gets her opinion, and thats that". After you winning the vote you can choose whether to change the introductory paragraph, but you don't seem to want to. I would like to make a Crime in Poland section and yes I do have sources for this and I will list the sources in the section! Since Crime in Poland is a topic linked to Poland I will add it to the "see also" section. I believe that the family name is more important than citizenship since a Pole can be a citizen of whatever country they like, but their family name shows their direct connection to the Polish language and/or ethnicity. But since I didn't win the vote, SywliaS gets her opinion. Informationguy

[edit] Vote Results

We already had a vote and SywliaS definition of Pole wins, yet you try to claim or give inneundo that I don't agree with the voting results, when I have clearly stated that I agreed to the voting results and the voting results give the choice of the editor. "I'd like to remind you of the Wikipedia:Request for comments section for articles." - Looked through it found nothing, where is your argument that I didn't agree with the voting results and the result of those votes? Thats not true, I clearly said that since she won the vote the results of winning the vote are that SywliaS get the choice on the definiton of Pole on the Wikipedia page. Informationguy

"Abusive use of headings" Thats the only way I know how to type. Nothing was intended to be "abusive" as you seem to claim. So why don't you answer if I'm allowed to post anywhere on the talk page or the article or nowhere? I await your response, since this is the only way I know how to type alright. Each of those "headings" are meant to illustrate a separate point, if this is not allowed you did not inform me. Informationguy

• I also clearly asked am I now allowed to post on the talk page, and am I not allowed to post on the article page? Yet, my question was ignored and is currently being ignored. Informationguy

[edit] Consensus is now reached

I ask again, am I allowed to post on the talk page? And and am I allowed to post on the article because of the voting results? Informationguy

Please notice that I'm not talking about the definition of Poles, I am only talking about the result of the votes here. So it seems SywliaS won the vote so she gets to choose how to edit it. It seems I'm not allowed to post on either the article or the talk page anymore because of the Vote Results. My questions are fully ignored and complete disregard for any requests I have for clarity from the winners of the vote, is present. Since, they were very active in editing before the vote they have stopped editing after the vote and ignored all of my questions as to: 1. Whether I can post on the talk page or not, it seems that I can't post on the talk page either, so bye! Informationguy

[edit] An Ethnic Poles list

"Please, you are still welcome to contribute into the article with the respect of the voting’s outcome, and post your comments here" - So it seems I am welcomed to post my comments here. "It was never proved Nietzsche had Polish roots" - See there is no visible connection in that case, which could not be the case with a person with a Polish family name. "we are a nation, not a race". No, that is not true. There is a Polish national citizenship and a separate unique category called Polish ethnicity (or race as some call it). The same as any other European people have defined as being their own ethnicity. Since an Ethnic Pole is a Pole by ethnicity (ethnicity, race, descent or origin are words frequently used interchangably with one another) not by citizenship. "our blood is not different than people of other nationalities." Wait if you say that, yet other nationalities claim to have Ethnic blood also. i.e. Poles have just as much right to be called a race like any other European peoples, i.e. "The Scottish Race", "The German Race", and "The Polish Race". Why do other Europeans call themselves a race, yet you have a problem with Poles who do the same as say the Scots? How is being Polish any less of a race than the Scots for instance? An Ethnic Pole is a Pole not by choice but by birth having visible connections such as Polish family names, this would translate as being criteria for ethnicity (or descent or race as some call it) not just a "nation" whatever definition one so chooses to give to that word. An Ethnic Poles list with Visible connections such as Polish family names being a criteria should be defined. There was an article on Ethnic Poles, similar to the Ethnic German article but it was deleted and created into a redirection into the vague word "Poles" which could be only defined as nothing other than citizens of Poland with no other connection to being "Polish" other than citizenship. Informationguy

I would support the creation of new lists, as Informationguy suggests. Perhaps "List of notable people of Polish ancestry" or "List of notable people with Polish surnames"? It would be a lengthy list, but if he desires to compile it, I see no problem with it, and can also think of ways that it could be useful, perhaps for researchers who desire to seek names to promote during a "Polish heritage" day at a school. I do recommend that whatever new list is created, include a clear paragraph at the top which defines its scope. It can also be linked from this "List of Poles" page under a "See also" section. Elonka 20:33, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok I see your point, but once we specifically know how someone with a Polish family name (or surname as it's sometimes called) is Polish, either through their birth parents or through assimilation, then they would have to be moved into the Ethnic Poles and/or Poles list. Informationguy

Why move them? I think it would make more sense to list someone in multiple lists, depending on what it was that they would qualify for. For example, someone like August Czartoryski could potentially qualify as a Pole (his father was Polish), a Spaniard (his mother was Spanish), or a Frenchman (he was born in France, or whatever that area was called when he was born). So he could be listed on all three lists. Elonka 20:45, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, the subject of multiple lists had a lot of conflict as the subject most commonly used was "we don't want lists too long". And I'd also like to add, that I frequently see the word "race" being used when people discuss European ethnicities, they write "Scottish race", "German race", etc. And also, since Wikipedia has an entry for Ethnic Germans, there should be the same for Ethnic Poles, for Poles have an Ethnicity, not unlike the Scots, or any other people. Informationguy

If you could include all the names that you think appropriate, how long do you think that the longest of the lists would be? Elonka 21:02, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Well it's written on the Wikipedia editing page that "...36 kilobytes may be longer than preferable" and it also has a link to Wikipedia article size. Informationguy

• I started an List of Ethnic Poles since I was given the impression that I was allowed to do so. Please inform me if I was not permitted to do so, in that case I would not object to it being removed, since I was given this impression (that starting a list of Poles would be permitted) strongly as in comments from others on this talk page. I have started a new list of Polish people, but I cannot guarantee that I will continue to work on it, perhaps it is allowed that someone else will expand and/or rework (if possible, if not remove) the article. If this approach is "wrong", then I will have no objections to the List of Ethnic Poles being removed, or the same to any other contubutions I made, since I lost the vote. [Instead of a new list of Polish people, I think just a subject will do, such as the information from List of Ethnic Poles to the Subject of Ethnic Poles, and how would I delete the List of Ethnic Poles and replace it with the Subject of Ethnic Poles? Sorry, but I'm not too talented in the arts of discussion or putting things on the internet. Bye! Informationguy

I think the most appropriate page name is List of ethnic Poles (wikipedia-style capitalization). I went ahead and moved the information to there, and added a scope paragraph. Please comment at Talk:List of ethnic Poles? Elonka 06:28, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Not Poles?

I'd like to remove few individuals from Category:Polish nobility, as I think they don't fit the defintion of Poles agreed upon above. Your comments appreciated.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 22:04, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

• Elfi von Dassanowsky
• Robert von Dassanowsky
• Irakli Danylovich

I think Dassanowscy should be removed. Where Irakli Prince was born?--SylwiaS | talk 17:39, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Btw, his name was Irakli Danylovich, so I've moved the page there. Valentinian ^(talk) 23:11, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Red links

Please, don't remove the red links. Some of the people are much more important than the people who have their articles already. Sometimes we are just working on a topic and we start an article for someone because the person is mentioned in the main article. It doesn't make the person more important than some who still don't have their articles. I know that it might seem that the most important people should already have their articles. But in practice there is much less Polish speaking editors on Wiki than e.g. English or German ones, so we need much more time to make the work. I added some of the deleted names back. I still need to add the rest of them. (You made me work hard, really!). I won't add someone if I clearly see that the person is not a Pole according to the voting above, but I'll add all the rest. They should be here until separate lists for their professions are created. Otherwise we'll lose them all and someone will have to do the work once again in future.--SylwiaS | talk 12:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, there are certain Polish editors who spent a lot of time (and sadly also the time of others!) on articles about German or Prussian issues etc. (and it seems they also fish in some other neighboring ponds). --Matthead 03:41, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

No offense to you personally Matthead, but the same can be said of other German editors. There are fanatics on both sides. Again, not saying you are, just that there are German ones too. Cheers Philip Gronowski ^Contribs 03:56, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

I wonder if Podolski and Klose will still be on this list here if they sent the polish team back home during the WC with their goals for the german national team.

[edit] Request review of recent edit

I just added a list of names to the list (from Piotr). I would appreciate it if someone could review my edit to ensure that I categorized everyone appropriately and alphabetized correctly. Also, some entries could probably use a more descriptive entry (particularly the soccer players and politicians). I'm not familiar with soccer terms or the political parties so I avoided attempts to elaborate on those listings. Thank you. SWAdair | Talk 06:45, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Music

If such world-renowned singers as Natalia Kukulska and Kasia Kowalska have been located on this list

Why not add guys from Papa Dance, Doda and Michal Wisniewski?

Sorry for being sarcastic, but please, let us show the world our cream of the crop, not 3rd rate personalities Tymek 04:07, 3 February 2007 (UTC)