Talk:List of Pokémon (1-20)

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Archive 1 (16/07/07 - 09/09/07)


Contents

[edit] Why can't we have both?

I believe it would make everyone happy. Wikipedia has damn near endless space for articles, I don't see why we can't have both your worthless list of vague paragraphs and a main article for the Pokemon themselves. Pikachu and Paras get to have seperate articles. These two get to have their own articles, and Good-Article/Featured-Article status pages were taken down for this seemingly unusuable list, so why can't there be a page for each individual Pokemon and the list? The Captain Returns 16:20, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Please read all the sections prior to this one. This has been gone over a thousand times now and it's getting old. You have left no reasons for having articles, we have left reasons for not having full articles. We can't go on explaining forever, maybe a template is in order. SpigotMap 16:26, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] you're being unfair

I have looked at other articles... and other shows have MORE articles than Pokemon EVER had. Either you need to condense all those articles, or bring back ALL Pokemon pages. 72.161.133.85 (talk) 02:06, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

What happens with other articles outside of the Pokemon WikiProject is none of our concern. That's like saying that we should do the same thing for Mount Everest as we do for Michael Shumacher. MelicansMatkin (talk) 17:33, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
What about use the {{splitsection}} tag on whatever you want split back to a separate article? Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando (talk) 00:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
For the record I'm an infrequent user (age catches up) who popped their head in and was appalled by this change. The amount of content that has been removed along with individual pokemon pages is immense. All plot information, series appearances etc. At least revert to 2005 content with a different naming convention ie Charmander -> Charmander(Pokemon). 58.105.178.30 (talk) 00:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sections to be deconsolidated into individual articles

I propose the following merge-to-list process on the following Pokémon entries to be undone: Ivysaur, Charizard, and Squirtle. Decimus Tedius Regio Zanarukando (talk) 00:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Reasons? MelicansMatkin (talk) 01:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ivysaur

First quadruped in Smash Bros.? How many legs did Pikachu and Pichu have again? 75.152.155.200 (talk) 00:58, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Eh, it's a pointless bit of trivia anyway. Let's not worry about it, let's just remove it when these things creep in TheBilly (talk) 01:16, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Agreed and already did it. :P -Sukecchi (talk) 01:20, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] I propose we give each Pokemon its own article once more.

The reasons for merging the articles were idiotic and show that the editors are lazy. If the former articles were trolled and had spelling and grammar errors, then why not clean them up? There was no good reason for the merge. These articles contain virtually no useful information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.46.115.0 (talk) 22:33, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

The reasons for merging weren't laziness and idiocy, they were notability and verifiability. Each individual Pokemon is of little importance in the real world. They've had little cultural impact whatsoever. This isn't a game guide (WP:NOT#GUIDE), it's an encyclopedia. The will of the fans doesn't dictate content, the whole community does, with the goal of making a real Encyclopedia. This sort of fancruft is being trimmed down all over the place..... except maybe with Harry Potter, because those fans are the most rabid TheBilly (talk) 00:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Pokemon has had little cultural impact...? You've got to be kidding me. You have seriously got to be kidding me. Pokemon was one of the BIGGEST things ever. Where were you when the Pokemon fad started? As soon as the games hit the states, Pokemon's popularity EXPLODED. It's as big as Star Wars and Harry Potter. You cannot deny that THEY had a great impact on culture, so why do you deny that Pokemon did? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.186.87 (talk) 03:08, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


You say that every Pokemon is of little importance to the world. Well, why don't we just condense every president of the US into one artivle? Sure, they may be important to Americans, but do the Chinese care? The Scottish? That logic is as retarded as this stupid project. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.77.225.79 (talk) 22:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree a lot. There where no good reasons for merging. --24.232.60.148 (talk) 18:50, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

That's not true. There were p[perfectly valid reasons for the merge. -Sukecchi (talk) 19:11, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
You are comparing real world articles with fiction. The U.S. presidents have a lot or REAL-WORLD info, it doesn't matter if all of the world knows about them, as long as it has real world info it can have its own article. Pokémon only have info available through the games, TCG and anime, unless you can find info about most of them by an interview, newspaper article, they can't have their own articles. Simple as that. But you could check out Bulbapedia. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 11:47, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Why do we even need these lists if the pokemon are of no importance? Does wikipedia even need a list of Pokemon? Ninja337 (talk) 02:56, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Truth behind the merge

I think it's painfully obvious why all the Pokemon articles were merged. It had nothing to do with notability and verifiability. Wikipedia wants to consider itself, and be considered by others, a real encyclopedia. Anyone hearing that line, after laughing heartilly, would simply point to the fact that Wikipedia had an article for each Pokemon. Since no real encylopedia would ever have an entry for each Pokemon, Wikipedia could have no article for each Pokemon. Of course, given that encylopedias can't be modified by anyone, it's a losing battle for them, but there you go. Scumbag (talk) 17:06, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

That's true. But why would no real encyclopedia have an article for each individual Pokemon? Oh, right, it's because they aren't notable. -Amarkov moo! 19:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
The reason why no real encyclopedia has nothing to do with notability. It has everything to do with the fact that real encyclopedias don't let everyone edit. When you let everyone edit something, it is no longer an encyclopedia. Scumbag (talk) 20:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, if you're going to assume that I'm wrong for no reason, I really can't argue. -Amarkov moo! 20:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
Please don't mislead people. There is an encyclopedia out there that deals with Pokémon, it's called Bulbapedia. It's a different encyclopedia that deals with Pokémon, and it's as real as Wikipedia, just deals specificlly with Pokémon. Don't forget that there are other encylopedias on the internet that deals more specificlly with a subject. Telling people that there aren't just is misleading. It doesn't belong to Wikipedia, that's the thing that counts. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 11:50, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, now, was Wikipedia made JUST to tell people to go to other Wikis?!?!?!?! I know that when you look at Wikipedia, your supposed to go get a way to verify the info, but... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.224.26.233 (talk) 00:10, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Individual Pokemon sections

There is hardly any information in this list as many people have stated. It was mentioned that they weren't important enough or something to that extent. That is completely ridiculous and biased. If that many people are requesting something, it must be important to them. Pokemon's cultural significance can't be denied. I've found myself curious about pokemon that I haven't heard of in 5 years and when I went to check on them here I was very disappointed. I found out nothing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.10.194.109 (talk) 05:39, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, it is quite ridiculous. Some characters on this list (especially the original starting 3: Bulbasaur was a featured article not too long ago!) are are prominent characters in their own right, each far more popular and recognisable than some other fictional characters on Wikipedia who have their own page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.52.83 (talk) 19:44, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] At least do this...

If we can't have the individual articles back (quite what harm they posed is beyond me), then at least the link to Bulbapedia should be more prominent, rather than lounging alone at the bottom of the page. The full articles to each still exist, just on Bulbapedia, so I feel it would do everyone a favour if this was made clearer to the casual browser. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.52.83 (talk) 19:41, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

External links go in External Links. The End. — TheBilly(Talk) 19:51, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, but the articles suck without images, what's the deal with not allowing them on lists? Makes absolutely no sense, because lists ARE articles, whether you wanna believe it or not. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 19:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't see how that really relates to where links are supposed to go....— TheBilly(Talk) 20:02, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bulbasaur

Seems like there's an edit war starting/happening based on whether Bulbasaur should be a merged article, or a stand-alone like the Pikachu article. Instead of edit-warring, let's have a mature discussion on the matter here first. MelicansMatkin (talk) 18:17, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Pikachu is the most used/recognizable pokemon, his importance to popular culture can not be denigned, I am not sure if the other pokemon have any of this impact at all?  Doktor  Wilhelm  18:19, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Most used? Hardly. Bulbasaur's used far more frequently, as it's one of three choices for starting Pokémon in four of the US main series games. Other than that I don't have anything to say about it (yet). Coreycubed (talk) 19:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Not "most used" as in the game (though Pikachu does feature in more games than any other Pokemon), I mean all forms of merch contain atleast a pickachu!  Doktor  Wilhelm  19:23, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

A new discussion isn't going to help anything. It's already been discussed on four different occasions, and each time someone decides to wikilawyer over consensus. TTN (talk) 20:32, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, you do. The consensus is to have Bulbasaur as a single article and for reasons that are clear and supported by policy. Just because you disagree does not make you right. And does not give you the right to edit war and to peddle your own viewpoint over consensus. —Celestianpower háblame 22:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
No, they do not. Characters need signifcant coverage in the form of creation and reception notes. You never added anything like that to the article. Being mentioned quickly as an example in a couple of articles because it's one of the first three starters is not notability. Is this all because you worked on the article when it first became a FA (at least I think you mentioned that)? That seems like the case because you would be making the same case for the other two first generation starters if you were [User:TheBlazikenMaster|TheBlazikenMaster]] (talk) 23:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
The arbcom has to do with edit warring to keep wikilawyers at bay and because people don't like articles being redirected, not because I try to merge single articles. Editors currently are working on updating and gaining a new community validated consensus for WP:FICT and WP:EPISODE, so that's already being done.
Anyways, try to focus on the matter at hand. Significant coverage is shown within our good articles, and what you provided was never close. TTN (talk) 23:36, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
But not being a good article has never meant not having an article at all, that's just silly. And guidelines have never overruled consensus on individual articles. Here, there are plenty of people (with valid arguments) who disagree with you. And as we can see when you redirect the article, it's nearly always a new person who reverts. You have no consenus, so you can't take the action. It's as simple as that. —Celestianpower háblame 23:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
And Blazikenmaster, I agree. It's a ridiculous amount of discussion, but what other options are there? —Celestianpower háblame 23:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Did I say that it needed to be a good article? No. I said that good articles show what signifcant coverage details. When you provide coverage that actually matches a something on the way to becoming a good article (not that is actually needs to be one), then you and the other people will actually have an argument. Until then, you are just trying to have a page based upon subjective popularity that cannot exist without reliable sources to assert notability. Guidelines (that are based in policy) overrule in this case. TTN (talk) 23:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
And can you answer the question of why this single Pokemon is more notable than any other starter or legendary featured throughout the metaseries? In the very least, the ones within the first two generations could easily have the same coverage as what you're trying to pass off. TTN (talk) 23:58, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
If we're going by TTN's logic then I say Pikachu is the only one who deserves a page. It probably does appear in more media than any other Pokémon. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 00:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
That's correct. It's the only one with any actual information to hold a page. TTN (talk) 01:04, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
The way Wikipedia operates, sadly, seems to go against TTN's logic. @pple complain 17:28, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
For those not following other talk pages related to Bulbasaur, TTN has recently suggested cleaning up the lists, dividing them up between "Lists of Pokémon" and "Anime/Manga characters and gym leaders". He stated that
"All of the anime characters will be merged to one list, giving a brief, concise entry for each one. The major humans and Pokémon will be covered, while the episode lists and the single Pokémon entries will cover the minor ones. Pokémon like Ash's Pikachu, Bulbasur and Charizard will recieve entries, while minor ones that only appear once and awhile (Snorlax, Muk, Corphish, ect) will be covered within the lists."
To date, no feedback regarding this has been posted. I don't know what his idea of a "brief, concise entry" is, but if it involves editing similar to some edits by him (see BTW below) then I think the subject is better off as it's own article.
BTW, I never got feedback about why TTN removed the cite that gave the names of the wiki-linked voice actors.Barnyard animals (talk) 19:19, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Brief and concise means enough for an encyclopedia. Ash and some other main characters will probably have up to three paragraphs, and the others will have between one and two paragraphs. As the English Wikipedia, we only cover relevant voice actors (the original language and the most signifcant English dubs). I removed the Spanish one, and assumed that the link following it only had to do with the Spanish voice actor. I believe I already explained that a while ago. TTN (talk) 20:25, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
You believe wrong then, you have never previously stated that you assumed the link following it had only to do with the Spanish voice actor, you only wittered about Eduardo Garza not being worth mentioning, despite the fact he appears notable to already have an article. "We only cover..."? on what exactly do you base your opinion that we shouldn't mention voice actors that have article to link to?--Barnyard animals (talk) 08:29, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Once again, TTN, as always, you're not listening. Wikipedia is based on consensus of editors, above anything else. Above policy. Above literally everything. There are many respected users arguing against you, so you don't have a consensus. It has nothing to do with "significant coverage in external sources" or whatever. If a consensus (or as close as possible to one) thinks an article should stay. That should be the end of the debate. —Celestianpower háblame 23:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
And as to "While the entry will be increased, it will not be above three paragraphs", how on earth can you make such a definite judgement like that? It's not solely up to you; you don't own the article (or any article). —Celestianpower háblame 23:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Consensus is based upon arguments, not the number of editors trying to assert something. Otherwise, we would still have articles on all of the other Pokemon. Your argument is not strong at all (if you don't believe me, try getting comments from the video game or Nintendo projects), so it does not overrule the others. One to three paragraphs is the proposed and obvious format of the entries, so that's how I can tell. TTN (talk) 00:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, consensus is based on arguments. However, as far as I can see, you give no arguments on your part, except for vainly negating other arguments by incessantly producing unhelpful PoVs. Before accusing others' arguments as "not strong at all", please give us your self-acclaimed so-called strong arguments rather than push us finding the answers from somewhere else. Anyway, we are willing to get comments from the video game or Nintendo projects. Ask them to join as long as no ignorant views are added to the discussion that is inherently full of those ones. @pple complain 17:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I can see some characters like Gary, Tracy, and Ash's notable pokemon having one to three paragraphs. But for characters that have been in the series for a while (oh, say, Ash) I don't think we can really say that three paragraphs is the 'obvious' format. As for Bulbasaur, though, it really doesn't merit it's own article if it's going to be covered on the lists and on this character page. Ageofe (talk) 02:07, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

The article has been protected until agreements can be made. bibliomaniac15 05:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think any agreement can be made. The scope of this discussion is no narrow that the talk may go on forever with same users saying the same things all over again. Please unprotect the redirect and the list, restore them to the former and non-controversial state, bring Bulbasaur to AfD or RfC or something, then get a consensus there. I might as well unprotect the page if no one objects. - PeaceNT (talk) 06:40, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Bulbasaur was sent to DRV here, redirection was overturned by the closing admin, so I've unprotected this page. Discussion is now held at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bulbasaur (2nd nomination), if anyone is interested. - PeaceNT (talk) 13:59, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

I have one thing to say, Ash Ketchum should be more than three paragraphs, I really find him notable enough to have his own article. I mean common, he is the main character. And I do believe there can be real-world information about him. As for the rest of the characters, they are probably not notable enough. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 18:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not about "more than three paragraphs" or so. Article's length has no role in determining the existence of the article. Notability and verifiability are the decisive factors. If you "do believe" that only Ash Ketchum is notable while the rest are not, justify your stance and the discussion will end here if your point meets consensus. @pple complain 13:06, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
No, I already typed everything I wanted to say. Besides I said "probably" that means I'm not 100% sure. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 18:51, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The way it was

Why on earth was this changed? It doesnt seem to contribute anything, and I do not seem to find any reason to get rid of the Pokemon Pages as they were. Before, it was easy to use Wikipedia to find Sugimori Art of the Individual Pokemon needed, and to look up facts on the myths and legends behind these creatures. Now these pages are useless, and serve no purpose, so why not bring back the old individual pages and revert it back to the way it was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SHTR (talk • contribs) 11:57, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe you should bring this to WT:PCP, that would be better than copying this to many talk pages at once. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 14:34, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
You want to see Sugimori art? You want to see facts about them? Go to Bulbapedia. -Sukecchi (talk) 14:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Bulbapedia is ridiculously slow, especially for Non-Broadband users. It seems discriminatory towards us if we are expected to waste half an hour or more just to view one page, when it could be on Wikipedia and would take about 2 minutes —Preceding unsigned comment added by SHTR (talk • contribs) 19:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I've mentioned this already several times before on other pages, but the reasons why images aren't allowed can be found at User:Durin/Fair use overuse explanation (especially 6.10). MelicansMatkin (talk) 19:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Is this being constantly discussed? Whenever I see a debate about keeping the articles, someone always goes "This has already been discussed." Frankly, I don't see why people who don't care about Pokémon tries to tear down the articles about Pokémon. If a Pokémon's not notable, and doesn't deserve it's own article, then what's the point of a list (with no pictures, making it even more irritating)? Wikipedia's strength ARE fans, as I see it. The Pokémon articles were never in the way for anyone. - Jetro (talk) 00:21, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I already made a video about my opinion about the pictures. Agreed, it is irritating to see the list without pictures. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 00:26, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

This list of single one paragraphs is completely absurd, the articles should be reverted to the way the used to be giving each pokemon is own article. Nothing useful can be found on this list the articles that were here before used to have information that even someone who has never seen or heard of Pokemon could use, an encyclopedia is supposed to allow someone to pick and article read it and leave with some understanding of what the just read but by looking at this pages nothing can be gather from it and no information may be gain. All the pokemon articles should be reverted to the way they were before or at least group them by family (i.e. Charmander with Charmeleon and Charizard, Squirtle with Wartortle and Blastoise etc...), also by not having a single picture of any of the pokemon in the list it makes it even less readable or helpful. WhiteStrike (talk) 16:57, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I have yet to see a damn good reason why the pictures can't be in the lists. I can't argue with that part. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 17:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

This is so ridiculous and unfair. As has already been stated, Wikipedia has endless room, and has room enough for many stubs about places most people will never ever see again (For example, I have seen 1 line articles for things such as Highways, Small roads, schools in the middle of nowhere etc). Surely if Wiki needs space, the useless articles like these should go, rather than mutilating a perfectly fine set of articles. Wikipedia has stepped out of line with this, and I seriously wish now that Wikipedia would go bust, or would get virused etc. It deserves it ATM. Its just discriminatory —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.10.54.182 (talk) 18:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the above few. There is plenty of room available for each article. Verifiability is hardly an issue with the amount of content which is available, the only issue is notability. But I do not understand why some people think that just because they do not find a pokemon important, that no one else does either. Besides, the least we should do is cut the lists down to 10 pokemon each, add 10 pictures (which really isn't that many) and expand the info. Greglo (talk) 05:10, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pictures?

Macoroni (talk) 22:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)Shouldn't the Pokemon on this page have pictures?

It would look nice with pictures, but alas Wikipedia Image policy doesn't allow that many on a single page. -WarthogDemon 22:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I still don't get it. Please see my rant (accessible from my user page) for more information. TheBlazikenMaster (talk) 23:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I say there should be pictures, but the copyrights...I wonder if a letter can be sent to Nintendo about using their images? brickdude^_^ 18:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Seed Species

Why are Ivysaur and Venusaur each listed as "the seed species" of Pokémon? I don't remember that designation ever being used, which is fine, but the article seems wrong. Shouldn't we be using "the" instead of "a" since they are different species? --B2xiao (talk) 01:32, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

It's in the Pokédex of RBY.--Goon Noot (talk) 01:53, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Alternate organization

I'm not going to waste everyone's time rehashing arguments for and against individual articles. I'd prefer them but I'm sure the change was made for good reason, and the folks who speak in proper English seem to be for it. I would like to suggest that the list be reorganized to four separate pages by generation. If that's too large, each generation might be split to two pages, or at the very least, pages should not split evolution chains or related pokemon e.g. legends. I feel cutting the pages into neat 20-pokemon sections 1) Is quite an arbitrary organization 2) Makes for too many, too short "articles" 3) Renders it nigh unuseable, even as a list and 4) Makes maintenance that much more difficult. Basically, since Wikipedia is not restricted to such short pages, a list article might as well have as many items as possible on the same page. Cheezmeister (talk) 21:14, 4 June 2008 (UTC)