Talk:List of Old Falconians

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A number of entries have been deleted from the list due to questionable notability. They are listed here, please add further non-notability deletions on that page and remove entries on the page with a strikeout that have since had their notability asserted and referenced. See project policy.

Contents

[edit] Citation

There is not enough citation on this page proving that these people went to North Sydney Boys. I'm not questioning their existence or achievements. Michellecrisp 03:32, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. But we might as well keep what we have until it is sourced. Readers can be discerning in that regard. Grumpyyoungman01 13:18, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Achievements?

Town crier? Really. Talk about bottom of the barrel stuff. 130.194.13.105 07:49, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tony Steele

Tony Steele has never actually played a Test for Australia? I only think Test Players who have earnt a Baggy Green cap should be considered as notable. Otherwise we will be debating this for every single school old boy or girl who may or may not have been part of a national squad for many sports such as rugby union,league, netball and cricket etc. It's a matter of consistency. Michellecrisp 08:05, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The criteria for inclusion on this list is whether (hypothetically) a fully sourced article on the person warrants inclusion on Wikipedia. Certain citations will provide that, such as the Monash Biographical dictionary, other citations are highly questionable, such as WWIA. Certainly not everyone ever listed in Who's Who will be notable enough. So we should aim for multiple citations where necessary, if someone has their own page then they are obviously notable, it is just a matter of sourcing that they attended NSBHS. Grumpyyoungman01 13:23, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
According to this Tony Steele has only played for NSW http://content-aus.cricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7672.html If he has played for Australia it's obviously not Test or ODI status (officially counted for statistical records). I would say even if he played one one day international it would make him notable. so unless we start including every State player... Steven Fitter 00:50, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
This is now being discussed at WikiProject Cricket, but in general the consensus is that all first-class or List A cricketers are sufficiently notable, on the grounds that the WP:BIO criteria for athletes includes the phrase "...have played in a fully professional league". While the definition of "professional" is problematic as far as cricket is concerned, the WikiProject consensus has generally been that having made appearances in a major first-class domestic competition like the Sheffield Shield is more than enough. Loganberry (Talk) 01:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
He's a bona fide first class cricketer and therefore he's a notable person. I've written an entry for him based on his perfectly respectable cricket career. I changed 'international' to 'first class' on your list because the status of his matches against New Zealand for Australia might be a bit confusing at first glance. They were for Australia against New Zealand but they weren't counted by Australia as Test Matches. In time every state player will have their own article on Wikipedia so why not list them here? Nick mallory 08:13, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable notability

A number of people have questionable notability that would not meet Wikipedia guidelines: A number of people in this section do not meet the following guidelines: The person has been the subject of published1 secondary sources that are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. The person has been the subject of a credible independent biography. The person has received significant recognized awards or honors. The person has demonstrable wide name recognition The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in their specific field. .simply being a former chief of an organisation with no record of significant achievement, is not notable. The above criteria is a stronger test than simply being a professor or appearing in who's who. Michellecrisp 07:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of Who's Who

Whilst Who's who is an accurate reference for biographical data, I question someone's current notability if they haven't appeared in who's who in the last 15 years. After all it's updated every year to reflect the most notable people in Australia. I'm proposing to delete people whose notability cannot be verified from a secondary source other than who's who and whose only reference is who's who pre 1992. Michellecrisp 02:56, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Woah, hold on. Dead people aren't listed in who's who and people are only dropped from Who's Who if they die. So a citation from any who's who, no matter how old, is as good as a citation from a newer who's who. It would be good to have a citation from the most up to date whos who, but I don't think it is crucial because if an older who's who can establish that someone is notable, then nothing will alter that, except that they may become even more notable.
"I'm proposing to delete people whose notability cannot be verified from a secondary source other than who's who" - As for this, I agree that whos who is a bad reference and I think in some cases this may be appropriate. Certainly inclusion in whos who, does not equal Wikipedia level notability, but if it says somewhere in the whos who reference that someone has done something that is notable to Wikipedia standards, then that should be treated as any other reference. - Grumpyyoungman01 07:21, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Grumpy, yes Wikipedia is a higher standard than Who's who. I guess my point is of currency. If someone appeared once in 1985 in who's who and hasn't appeared again you've got to ask if they're notable. of course secondary sources strengthen again. as for dead people, they may drop off current who's who but if they're notable they should be appear in other sources. Michellecrisp 07:28, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
If they appeared in 1985, and haven't died, then they are still included in the annual additions. But even if they weren't I can't see how that could affect their notability, given that notability isn't and shouldn't be asserted just because of an appearance in whos who.
If there are any entries on the list which are only there because the person is listed in whos who, then they should be deleted. Which is what you correctly did to a bunch of non-notable professors. As I scroll down the list I see lots of people who are on the margins of notability, without being too familiar with WP policies, they don't look non-notable, but neither do they look particularly notable. For instance: "Leslie Caplan AO, Elected Head of Australian Jewry, one of the founders of Masada College;" and what about school principals? Are they notable?
Anyway, delete what you see fit. Just put them on that subpage so we can keep track of them all. - Grumpyyoungman01 07:15, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
No problem. I think we agree that if who's who is someone's sole reference source then it doesn't meet notability. Michellecrisp 07:18, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] John Polson

Should not be on this list if he only completed year 7. Credit must go to the high school that he attended the most. Michellecrisp 07:30, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

now removed, was expelled at age 13 Michellecrisp 07:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
reference http://p068.ezboard.com/fmostlyrussfrm6.showMessage?topicID=6.topic Michellecrisp 11:23, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] James Morrison

same for James Morrison on this list. the ref says "Monash Biographical Dictionary of 20th century Australia - note: although he is connected to NSBHS as a soloist with its Big Band, he did not attend the school". then why is he on this list? it's very misleading. I'm concerned that this entry is becoming exaggerated in parts. Michellecrisp 01:13, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] James Powditch

sure he's an artist but the award he won? does he meet this criteria Michellecrisp 01:20, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Academics

I will be removing academics who did not fit academic notability guidelines. simply being a professor is not sufficient. Michellecrisp 01:22, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Another note on notability

This old boys list should not be a directory of everyone who went to NSBHS that is simply listed in Who's who or held a professorship or won 1 or 2 awards. Notability for Wikipedia needs to have a record of significant achievement and reporting of these achievements as in above post. Michellecrisp 03:30, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this totally. - Grumpyyoungman01 09:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Graham Neil

Air vice Marshal graham neil appears here as being educated at Boston Grammar: http://www.bluepig.plus.com/BGS/Boys/F/forman_g_n.htm Michellecrisp 06:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Roelof Smilde

is that achievement really notable? being hosted on some site that not many people would read. a google search as Roelof does not reveal this achievement. is coming 3rd in a not well known competition really notable? Michellecrisp 07:32, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Graham Keating

If http://www.abc.net.au/riverina/stories/s968057.htm is the best reference then he is not notable. the article is written in a non-serious tone. does Graham Keating act as a town crier as a full time job? I think not. is town crying a competitive serious profession? This fails this criteria. Michellecrisp 11:21, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Eric Gowing

simply being a bishop is notable enough? Notability requires record of significant achievement. Michellecrisp 01:12, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mark Aarons

Mark Aarons entry said he went to school in Fairfield. I know he grew up there http://www.abc.net.au/dynasties/txt/s1504619.htm and listed as alumni of Fairfield High School. is it possible that the NSBHS list has a namesake. If so, I am proposing removing Mark Aarons until there is concrete evidence that Aarons the author attended NSBHS. This kind of mistake shows the importance of secondary sources not just checking school rolls. Michellecrisp 01:52, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hugh Storey

Where is his record of significant achievement/biography? Being a senior judge is not sufficient for notability Michellecrisp 02:10, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Francis Nutley

Again no record of significant achievement or independent biography? I accept he held the position decades ago but the fact is no one has written about him: http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&as_qdr=all&q=%22Francis+Hutley%22&btnG=Search&meta=cr%3DcountryAU Michellecrisp 02:23, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ian Bund

what is so notable about being President of White Pines Ventures? simply being a president of a company is not notable. Michellecrisp 03:28, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ted Wolfers

saying he's the broker of the peace afford implies he did it all by himself. Wolfers in fact assisted with others in the peace negotiations.

Australia's Support for the Negotiations 4.104 In evidence, DFAT explained that Australia provides funding to support legal and other technical advisers for the negotiating parties. Anthony Regan (from the ANU), Ted Wolfers (from the University of Wollongong) and Ian Prentice, a Queensland lawyer. Together, these advisers are working in a team of 14 technical officers which has been formed to assist all the parties to the negotiations. http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/bougainville/BV_chap4.htm Michellecrisp 04:17, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Most Rev Donald Robinson

did he actually attend most of his high schooling at NSBHS? reference is dubious. if he didn't it's misleading to call him an Old Falconian. Michellecrisp 04:23, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Concerned

I am concerned that a lot of non-notable people are creeping back into this article. To be included on this list they must satisfy this criteria. Also glowing statements of their achievements is not for this list, if these people are so notable they should have their own individual article as well. Michellecrisp (talk) 00:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

It's starting again. Can I also say and this was discussed last year, that simply appearing in Who's who is not sufficient enough for inclusion. If they are notable they would be backed up by a variety of sources, preferably a reliable source that one can verify on the web. Michellecrisp (talk) 14:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)