Talk:List of Oceanian Jews

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Thanks User:Davidcannon for additions. Cleaned up slightly: added dates, removed unnecessary links (see here). One question: does anyone have any external confirmations for Ernest Davis, Pei Jones or Colin Kay? I couldn't find anything online. -Udzu 23:45, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You're welcome:-) Colin Kay is listed as Jewish in Encyclopedia Judaica (I'll have to look up which edition - it was published in the 1980s). Pei Jones - his father was Jewish, according historian Michael King (see his biography on Te Puea), so I've listed him as half-Jewish. Ernest Davis - I don't have any sources, but I remember him being spoken of as having been Jewish. I will try to find confirmation. As for the other two, I'll try to find page numbers in the next few days. David Cannon 01:09, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks again! PS I just found that Pei Jones' father was a European immigrant called Daniel Lewis, which fits in. -Udzu 08:48, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Addition of Religious leaders

A list of Religious leaders were added by an anonymous user in this diff.

The people added were general not of sufficient notability for an encyclopedia, and were focussed on the Sydney chabad community. Few would be internationally known as gedolim to the Jewish community, let alone to the wider community. Wikipedia states that it is NOT an indiscriminate collection of information, and that some things that are true still need not belong in an encyclopedia.

Of recent/current religious leaders, I would have added Rabbi Raymond Apple before any other as he is recognised in:

  1. The Chief Rabbis cabinet [1]
    Rabbi Apple was the Chief Rabbi of The Great Synagoge Sydney, which was the first Shul in Sydney and has a few offical Rabbis thats why they call him the chief Rabbi, and he personally makes that very clear. He personally has not that much to do with other shuls in Sydney. Also that page does not mention about the services he started in with the Great to help the comunity and that he retired in 2004. 220.233.48.200 14:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)
    If you look at the link above, I think you'll find that's incorrect. Chief Rabbi is not a title at the Great Synagogue. jnothman talk 13:56, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
    For a much better summary of Rabbi Apple's achievements in the Sydney Jewish community on a whole cf. the RCA Profile at [2]
  2. The Senior Jewish chaplain to the Australian Defence Forces since 1988
  3. The Sydney Morning Herald [3], the ABC [4] and general Australian leadership
  4. His membership as an Officer in the Order of Australia

For more perspective, I would have then put the late Chaim Gutnick.

Can others please add other notable religious leadership, particularly of yesteryear?

jnothman talk 12:11, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

Rabbi Pinchas Feldman, I have no idea why you removed him, he has done more for the comunity than any other Rabbi with the help of Rabbi Borch Leshes, a few of the majors:

Current years:

  1. Rabbi Feldman brought Rabbis and, students to become Rabbis from overseas (and melb.), which have opened up many of 32 shuls in Sydney, with all of them currently having Rabbis that Rabbi Feldman brought to help Sydney.
  2. Rabbi Feldman this year alone brought 45 men to help the comunity, about 15 of them are studing to become Rabbis this year, with the rest studing to become Rabbis next year. Over his 35+ years of being in this comunity he has brought well over thousands students/Rabbis to help build the comunity, many of which started families in Sydney and are helping it grow.
  3. Rabbi Feldman is considered the Chief Rabbi of NSW as he brought most of the Rabbis to NSW.

Earlier years:

  1. Rabbi Feldman expanded Yeshiva College from a school for 20 kids to hundreds of kids with in the first few years of being incharge, and bought the old Tafe campus to allow the school expand even bigger...
  2. Rabbi Feldman started Yeshiva Kashrus with Rabbi Leshes, to fit with the higher standards of the Rabbis, Rabbi Feldman was bringing, which he latter convinced the Mizrachi comunity to combind their Kashrus with Yeshiva's to form KA, which would follow the stirctness that the Yeshiva comunity followed, so the comunities were not spilt, like what was happening in other places. Rabbi Feldman at the begining was in charge of KA but he steped down as he was needed more in the school, with Rabbi Moshe Gutnick being put incharge.
  3. Rabbi Feldman would send his children, with a few other student-Rabbis (which latter on happened to marry some of his daughters) every festival to lead the smaller comunities around Australia and mainly NSW until he started the RARA program.

I could cont. this list but this is not the place, I am going to move most of this to his page with some editing and cont. there... some time in the future. 220.233.48.200 14:01, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


The reason I removed Feldman initially was primarily because your listing of prominent religious leadership was notably from a particular point of view. I still think this applies as to Boruch Leshes who you continue to call Borch Leshes; as a religious member of the Sydney Jewish community, I barely know of him or his impact. I know that Pinchas Feldman has had a large impact on Sydney Jewry, and I think that DOES make him notable enough here, but not as the owner of Diamond Rose, which is itself not entirely notable. jnothman talk 00:32, 22 November 2005 (UTC)
I know I am not registered but I think your getting me mixed up with other unregistered users. Rabbi Borch Leshes is the Rosh Yeshiva of the only Yeshiva in Sydney, that it self is a big enough reason, he is the only person that give smicha in Sydney up until recenently when he started to give smicha with Rabbi Perlow, I could go on saying everything he does for the comunity but its 5:30AM. And you say Rabbi Feldman is the owner of Dimond Rose, well your getting mixed up in between him and his children. 220.233.48.200 18:23, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I should be more accurate to say his wife founded it and son owns it. It is nonetheless not particularly notable; certainly doesn't make Sholom or Pnina notable through it, IMO. jnothman talk 13:50, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Groner

Please feel free to take part in the discussion at User talk:Hyim#Groner. Ems2 21:22, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alphabetical order

Should be by surname, in accordance with standard style in encyclopaedic listing of names, as well as that used on the rest of this page. (Comment regards this edit). jnothman talk 00:26, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abraham Rabinovitch?

Is Abraham Rabinovitch a religious figure? I thought he was educational / communal / pioneering / philanthropist?... but not seen as a major religious figure/leader/guide. Comments? jnothman talk 00:27, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

He is a religious pioneer. IMO he is the most noteworthy from the whole list. Ems2 11:42, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

As in he pioneered in religion? Or he was a religious person and pioneered? He pioneered in Jewish religious education, but I wouldn't say that makes him a religious leader.
And I again contend that Raymond Apple is fairly notable, though without article. As are the Chabad leaders. It doesn't really matter who is most notable, and maybe time will tell, and maybe it won't. At least of Rabinovitch, though, there are written biographical accounts and I might try find something at Mandelbaum House / Aust. Jewish Historical Society and expand his article, and maybe then be able to classify him better here. jnothman talk 12:11, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Rabinovitch was a Russian. Ems2 12:52, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

There is a bit of infomation on him here. Ems2 13:02, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, cite it as a reference! Rutland's books was the first place I would look (easier now that she is back in Sydney and I could just ask her). jnothman talk 13:35, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] YDG description

A better description is needed. He is NOT the founder of chabad, which is what might be implied from someone without any background knowledge in the sudject. He can't even be called the 'founder' of chabad in Victoria, as Rabbi Chaim Gutnick was there before him. I am going to blank it till a better one is made. Ems2 12:00, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Is leader (and shaliach) of Chabad in Victoria sufficient? jnothman talk 12:19, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
It would be better to put what makes him noteworthy as a description. Is there anything, that he is noteworthy for that can be said in the same fashin as everyone else in that section? Ems2 12:45, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Of course RYDG started Chabad in Vic, and for that matter, he was the first in Australia... While Rabbi Gutnick preceded RYDG by a few years, his tasks were located at one Shul at which he was employed. He also didn't have a beard which is a distinctive mark of Chabad Shluchim. If someone feels that RCG began Chabad, please come forward with some documentation.Hyim 14:34, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

PLEASE STOP JUDGING PEOPLE. Did you even read Prikie Avot? As a matter of fact the Rebbe Rayatz's son also didn't have a bread. ems 15:06, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, the Rebbe Rayatz had no sons. Three daughters, but no sons. Number two, it is clear that all Chabad Shluchim maintain full beards. Number three, if you can document that RCG began Chabad in Melbourne, all the power to you! I just don't see it happening. Best, Hyim 16:06, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I wrote that without a clear head because I was upset. I meant son-in-law. Gutnick was the first chabad person in Victoria, making him the founder, this is simple logic. (Yes I am timezone impaired; I sleep in 2 hour peirods throught the whole day and night) ems 18:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry for upseting you, if I did. Weren't there Russian Chasidim (Feiglin, Althaus etc) that preceded Rabbi C Gutnick? No matter, I thikn we can all agree that RYDG was the first Chabad Shaliach to anywhere in Australia, and certainly to Victoria. I do not believe that in any of the hespeds to RCG was it claimed that he was the first Shliach. If you can prove otherwise, please do so.Hyim 21:24, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
You are forgiven. Who is defined as a Chabad Shaliach? A Shaliach according to Halacha that also happens to be Chabad? If you are going to say a Shaliach sent by one of the Rebbeim, then what about all those thousands of shluchim sent by Rabbi Krinsky, and what about all those million (yes, I know) more not sent by anyone that call themselves chabad shluchim, which according to Halacha aren't valid shluchim? And it isn't that we have to prove you otherwise, you need to prove yourself right, if not it just wont be mentioned. ems 15:47, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
A Shliach of Chabad ought to be defined as either an individual who was sent by a Rebbe to perform a specific task (not merely one who recieved the Rebbe's blessing in response to a question--otherwise, every one who accepted a job offer based on the Rebbe's advice would be considered a Shalaich to that company!). Another definition of Shalaich in the Chabad vernacular would include those who were dispatched as "Shliach Oseh Shliach" meaning that one Shalaich appointed another one to continue and expand the Shlichus that the first recieved. I am unaware of Rabbi Krinsky sending Shluchim, although I have heard that in places that there are no Shluchim the merkos linyonei chinuch board can appoint a Shalaich. Those "million" who call themselves Chabad likely do so as members of Chabad, or Chasidim, but it is clear to any person with NPOV that they are not Shluchim per se, and this is reflected by all central Lubavitch organizations that were established by the Rebbe. You can check www.chabad.org/centers for an updated list of Shluchim and Shliach-Oseh-Shliach-Shluchim.
Chabad is Orthodox Judaism, right? Chabad has no offical members list, anyone can all themselve Chabad, besides for the few the Rebbeim clearly said "This isn't Chabad." These so-called shluchim, that I was referring to, where not sent by anyone, however, just turn up somewhere and felt like opening a chabad house. Just a note, Schneerson, gave everyone the sluchas to bring Moshiach, by selecting only certain people to make Chabad houses, shows, opening chabad houses isn't what we need to do, as a whole, to bring Moshiach. I am not going to explain any further, incase... ems 10:25, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Adam also was orignally located at one place. Does that make him any less of the first man on earth? ems 15:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Please clarify? Hyim 16:06, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Read it as an analogy to what you said. ems 18:00, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I talked to sdf today, and I have a lot of corrections to do. Firstly there was Chabad in Australia before both wars, so nor Rabbi Chaim Gutnick (I recall he had a middle name, anyone know it? Or should I ask sdf?). Secondly Rabinovitch wasn't the only founder of Yeshiva Centre, Rabbi Chaim Gutnick along with a few other got together and founded it, Rabinovitch put the money in for the foundation, unlike how it was Moriah College (would he still be called a founder for Yeshiva Centre?). The more you know, the more you realize you know next to nothing. I think I need to get a lot more information off sdf and others, before I start making and extending these articles. Maybe we can interview them and publish this infomation? What do you think? ems 13:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Interview may be original research. There are histories written on these topics, with particular data archived at places like the Australian Jewish Historical Society as well as in the works of Jewish historians like Suzanne Rutland. Who is SDF? A Feldman of some kind? I had a feeling Rabinovitch was more of a philanthropist than a founder, although it does seem he was the founding visionary when it came to Moriah. jnothman talk 12:04, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the part that says "However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is strongly encouraged." would refer to an interview. Yes he is some kind of Feldman, type: human :D ems 14:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
P.S. I was not only referring to get info about Rabinovitch, but also Gutnick. ems 14:36, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Groner again

Hyim, you can not claim Groner is the first chabad halachic shaliach, without disproving the others before him as non-shilichim. AFAIK Rabbi Chaim Gutnick was sent by the Rayatz. ems 16:07, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Please prove that Chaim Gutnik was a Shaliach. He didn't work for Merkos... He shaved his beared (not having an opinion on that-just stating a fact that would disqualify likely disqualify him)... Again, Groner is certainly the senior Shalaich listed on chabad.org/centers, is he not? (Cached versions are available on www.archive.org)
Again with the judging. The Rebbe Rayatz's son-in-law shaved, wow the sky is going to fall, everyone run for their lives. Its his business if he shaved, and its my business if I want to even believe this claim you make. You need to prove your self correct, please see WP:CITE. There is a very big possiblity that there were shluchim before Groner even if Rabbi Chaim Gutnick isn't one. Being a "senior Shalaich" doesn't automaticly make you the first. ems 08:54, 5 March 2006 (UTC)