Talk:List of Naruto characters

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[edit] Removing unnecessary characters

So... as has been already pointed out, there are character whom we do not need to mention. The question is, which ones should get removed? As for my opinion on the matter, see here. I'll give this about a week. If there are no objections to who made or didn't make the list, then I will be bold and remove them myself. After that, I will decide my opinion for the others. If any of you wish to bring a character back after I remove them, as long as you have a good reason to keep them, I won't bother you. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 15:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

My doubt is that if you see those characters as unnecessary, why dont you want to delete Kushina Uzumaki who hasnt done anything in the series? I think that Anko and Kimimaro made more things in the series than her. If it is about how relevant the Kushina is, you shouldnt delete the three-tailed beast. Well, that was my doubt.--Tintor2 (talk) 22:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
That's a fairly inconsistent list o' suggestions; maybe removing Ninken, but not maybe removing snakes? Keep Kushina but remove Danzo? Get rid of the Sound Genin but keep Yashamru? And so on in that fashion. ~SnapperTo 22:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Mainly, characters that didn't make the list aren't there because of how difficult (or impossible) it would be not mentioning them. So I won't be filling up the talk page with explanations for each character, I'll do so on the sandbox page. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 20:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Yet you still have a consistency problem (assuming you've listed everyone you're considering). Nawaki and Dan aren't needed, on this I agree. But with the same reasoning for removing them you can remove most others relatives/significant others; Fugaku, Yashamaru, Hizashi, Hiashi, Shisui, etc. A good rule of thumb, I think, is that if the only mention a character gets is in episode/manga summaries (excluding lists of relatives), they're expendable. ~SnapperTo 23:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
While Fugaku might be understandible, the other's aren't. Not mentioning them as characters, rather "uncle" or "best friend", would make it very difficult for the readers to understand what the heck we're writing. (Imagine how confusing it would be if we removed Hizashi and Hiashi and only put "Hinata's father" and "Neji's father" ^_^) The Sound Four/Five, for example, can easily be avoided in articles (outside of episode summaries, of course), they aren't even mentioned in Sasuke's page. All that would need to be mentioned is something along the lines of "Eventually, Sasuke's desire to kill Itachi, coupled with his growing jealousy of Naruto's constantly rising strength, would lead him to seek Orochimaru for power." If a character can get removed without causing significant confusion towards readers or the articles, then there's little point in keeping them. Characters like Anko, Hayate, Baki, and Ibiki are example of that. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 20:01, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
As the various articles are currently written, Hizashi and Yashamaru aren't mentioned at all, Fugaku and Hiashi are only mentioned so far as being the father in their children's relevant sections, and Shisui's name need only be dropped from Itachi's entry for his removal to be complete. Their absence would be just as neglectable as Dan and Nawaki's. ~SnapperTo 03:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, seeing this, most of those you said are understandable. However, before we continue running around in circles any longer, perhaps we should get rid of the characters we can easily agree are just taking up space (Hayate, Ibiki, Baki, Anko, etc.) to get something done, at least. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 16:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

What about Kushina Uzumaki? I dont think she has made important things in the series.Tintor2 (talk) 16:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

She's been added as well. Well, it's been six days, and it seems like there aren't any others we haven't covered. I'll start now, but only for ones that are wasting space and nothing else (namely the tailed beasts). Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 16:30, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, because the villains article is pretty empty now, I suggest merge to minor characters article. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 17:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I've reverted a couple of your removals. Neither the minor nor villains list are strapped for space, so what is basically reducing them to four characters a piece is unnecessary. ~SnapperTo 19:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Major revamp

See my sandbox. I still need to work on the merchandise section and expand the reception a bit, but that's the general idea. List of major Naruto characters would be merged into this article, and needs to be anyway as the title itself is a WP:NPOV problem (minor is fine since tertiary characters are easy to identify). Discuss. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 07:18, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Also noting that this can go off to WP:FLC as soon as all the content is here and sourced. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 08:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

The sanity-stealing penguins give their approval. This article could use some content. — Trust not the Penguin (T | C) 07:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Looking good to me! My only question is should reception be above the list? I seem to remember seeing it both ways in character lists and wasn't sure what was the preferred order. Collectonian (talk) 08:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
It's after. See the WP:VG featured character lists. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 08:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
But that's for video games. :P Though the anime project should probably get around to writing up something similar. :) Collectonian (talk) 09:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
It looks awesome. The only thing I wonder is the length. The list of major Naruto characters is already 63 kylobites long (the longest Naruto article). Thanks Sephiroth for the message.--Tintor2 (talk) 16:32, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I concur. This Major/Minor thing is just plain ridiculous. This is one of those times where WP:SIZE can in fact be treated with common sense and the occasional exception. Not to mention, that article needs content, and the major/minor things have all the content we need. Endorse merge. Sasuke9031 (talk) 17:04, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Is Characters of Kingdom Hearts (FA) an exception to that?--Tintor2 (talk) 17:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Post-merge stuff

Merge done. To-do list:

  1. Add brief summaries for the characters that have articles.
  2. Figure out what the hell to do with the "Other characters" section
  3. Find more reception tidbits
  4. Rewrite/copy-edit the whole thing to death

Relevant comparisons include Characters of Final Fantasy VIII, Characters of Kingdom Hearts, and List of characters in Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow and Dawn of Sorrow. For the first item, be brief, summarize the article, and make sure everything is sourced. For the second item, I personally like what is done on the Kingdom Hearts character page (add a broad section in "Other characters" and use one-liners in prose for each character). For the third item, knock yourself out. However, do note that this is WP:FLC, not WP:GAN. Significant coverage is important. Trivial stuff should be disregarded. For the last item, the whole thing needs to be cleaned up (for instance, I haphazardly converted the seiyu/voice actor part into prose, with flow not in mind), and sourced entirely. After that, we'll probably have to recruit someone at WP:LOCE to look over the article considering how big it will be. That said, after the above is done, we basically have the model for WP:ANIME's first featured character list. Discuss. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 02:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion: Due to suggestions of merging Tsunade and Jiraiya, move them here under a Sannin section, with a link to Orochimaru's page as well. As for Other Characters, put characters in there that have major importance for a non-filler single arc, like Zabuza or Chiyo, or characters that have important affects on the outcome of the series, like the nine-tails. The characters who are either flashback only (First Hokage and Madara) or truly minor (Gato) stay in minor characters page. Team Snake is fine either way, though. Yes, this will drastically increase the size of this article, but, as it is pointed out, articles can be as large or small as possible as long as they have established notability. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 17:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
To the first suggestion, that splits up protagonists/antagonists, which is the main way the whole article is sectioned. To the second suggestion, that seems rather arbitrary. The only reason Orochimaru and Akatsuki are the only listed members in the "Antagonists" section is because they actually have individual articles and truly constitute the only real villains of sorts in the series (Zabuza/Haku were one arc, Kabuto isn't major enough, Sound Four and Snake for the aforementioned reasons). I personally think the choice lies between the setup at Characters of Final Fantasy VIII (listing all of them, impractical) and the setup at Characters of Kingdom Hearts (making big sections and listing with one-liners in prose). The latter could work, and I think the only two major sections would be "Konohagakure" and "Sunagakure." All other characters are too difficult to group together and just having these two big sections cuts down on space. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 00:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

What about Akatsuki? Shouldnt they be merged in the list of villains?Tintor2 (talk) 00:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I highly disagree with the merging of all Naruto characters onto one page. I liked the old system of articles by name, as it gave all relevent information about the characters including techniques, birthdays, family relations, etc., that is no logner present. Team "Snake" should be under Team Hebi, as that is the official name. Also, the names should be in Japanese order because it is a Japanese-based society, regardless of the dub name order. Akatsuki should not be merged into villeins. If this merging continues, we will have a tiny summary about Naruto on one page. Although individual articles are longer, this allows them to have much more information. If all else fails, I would say to make something along the lines of Military Characters of the Fullmetal Alchemist Manga, in which many characters are on one page but the information is not cut short. Also, there are ninja from Iwagakure and Bloody Mist as well as Konoha and Suna, and what about Temari? She is a liasion between the two, not exactly living in either place. Plus, there are really only a few characters from Suna as compared to Konoha, I beleive that to be a poor way of sorting. I also believe that all filler information should be removed from the articles and put under a seperate filler article, as it is not cannon story and should not be treated as such. Ruingaraf (talk) 00:21, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

All the former articles failed to meet Wikipedia:Notability (fiction). You aren't going to win that argument. Next, the majority of the information you're mentioning (techniques, birthdays, etc.) is in-universe cruft that is ultimately extraneous information. We're an encyclopedia that gives a concise summary of whatever we're covering, not a fansite that goes into any detail. Try the Naruto wikia if that's what you're looking for. As for the rest of your concerns: "Hebi" means "Snake," and we use English if at all possible, the names shouldn't be in Japanese order per WP:MOS-JP, as we're catering to an English-speaking audience, and all English media use the English order, and Akatsuki should be merged because it fails the aforementioned notability requirement. That we end up with "a small summary on one page" for all Naruto material is rather ridiculous and unfounded. As for the Fullmetal Alchemist articles, they're also in need of heavy cleanup, something editors are beginning to tackle there, and citing other poorly written articles isn't the best way to back your argument. As for the Iwagakure ninja, there's been like what, three filler characters and Deidara from there? The utter majority of Naruto characters are unimportant to the plot and can be largely omitted; those that are relevant are on the minor characters page. As for your issue with filler material, your so-called "canon" doesn't apply here. What is presented in the anime is official no matter how you want to put it, and we will present it as it is, as we don't support any point of view on the matter. At this point, you're really beating a dead horse. Honestly, the Naruto articles are in far better shape than they were six or so months ago, and when compared to most anime and manga articles, they're actually quite impressive (five featured lists, four good articles, one featured topic). Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 07:16, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] You know, filler characters are characters too.

What happens if I want information on them? - 4.156.54.55 (talk) 02:15, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

wikia:Naruto. ~SnapperTo 03:24, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
...Conveniently doesn't have any information on filler characters, such as voice actors and etc. Thanks for the thoughtless redirect though. - 4.154.239.195 (talk) 02:25, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
I take it you didn't even bother searching? Because I found a few quickly enough. ~SnapperTo 02:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Love intrest

Shouldent hinata have her own artical since she is the one of the main love interests Poohman0 (talk) 21:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

No. Unless Hinata has enough out-of-universe information, such as reception and merchandise, available to justify giving her an article (like the four articles that are GAs), then she will not be getting an article. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 13:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lee

There are three things we should probably mention about Lee:

  • Drunken Fist
  • Attacking while unconcious
  • Nickname "Bushy brows"

However, when I added these, they were deleted. Anyone want to discuss this? Noodle2D23 (talk) 19:03, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

We're strapped for space, so we can't mention everything. Since Drunken Fist and fighting while unconscious are of significance only once, they get shoved into non-mention. Bushy Brows, however, would be a fine addition. ~SnapperTo 19:10, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I think he should have his own page... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Megaman en m (talk • contribs) 20:47, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Final merging set

After mulling about it, I think List of minor Naruto characters can be merged here. Suggestions below:

  • Create a "Hokage" section under the "Other characters" section
  • Short paragraph briefly describing the position and the first two.
  • Section for the Third and Fourth and move Tsunade into this section
  • Iruka, the nine-tailed demon fox, Chiyo, and Konohamaru get merged into "Other"

Rest of the characters are one-shot characters that aren't necessary. My only concern is that we have 20k left until we break the upper limit dictated by WP:SIZE, but I think it's manageable. If it comes down to it, Chiyo can but cut altogether from the "Other" section, as she's really a one arc character, while the rest of the suggested mergers are still present in the storyline or were around long enough to warrant mention. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 23:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

What about the Shukaku? Although it does not play a big part in the series its totally important with Gaara.Tintor2 (talk) 00:41, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Doing a cursory check, I think the article would be able to accommodate First + Second, Third, Fourth, Iruka, Konohamaru, Chiyo, Fox, Shukaku, and Kushina (just 'cause I feels like it) without exceeding 100. Maybe 102-ish tops. And are Jiraiya and Tsunade still to be merged here? If so, I'd put more emphasis on the "ish" part. Since refs can make a big impact on article size, we might be able to shave off a few kbs if we pay better attention to WP:REF: that "all material that is likely to be challenged needs a reliable source", not the current practice of "all material needs a reliable source". ~SnapperTo 03:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I support adding Chiyo and Shukaku to the article. Even if she is a one-arc character, Chiyo still played an important role in the plot of the story. Shukaku plays an important role throughout the series as well. I support merging Tsunade to this article, but I think that we should keep Jiraiya and wait and see if he can be brought up to GA - status before we decide what to do with him. I still am concerned, however, about what to do with the antagonists list. If we really are planning on making the Naruto articles a featured topic, then what are we going to do about that? Improve the article, or merge it? Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 15:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Yeah how the hell can that be called a merge when you're barely merging anything from the other article? The Splendiferous Gegiford (talk) 18:46, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I still think she's a one arc character, but we were left with more room than I thought. Shukaku doesn't need to be included, and the relevant details are already present at Gaara - heck, it's more minor than Chiyo. The antagonists list will stay as is. It's not feasible to merge it when we have all the Akatsuki members on that article. Oh, and for the purposes of a FT, just List of Naruto characters would be sufficient if it was a FL. It's why we wouldn't need the individual character articles or say individual video games if List of Naruto video games became a FL. Now, if we wanted a Naruto characters FT, then that would be different, but we can worry about that another time. And to Geg, the rest of the characters were cut since they're one-shot characters present in one arc that are barely important to the plot and don't need to be included for reader comprehension. We're not having sections on characters that barely appeared for any given period of time (Kushina, Yahiko, Rin, Yugito, etc.). Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 19:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
That seems fine to me, but what about giving Rock Lee his article from this draft? (anybody else draft, I dont care). Though conception lacks, it passes notability and it will reduce the length of this article a bit, since Tsunade seems to be merged due to its issues.Tintor2 (talk) 19:42, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Tintor, perhaps it would be a good idea to separate the Itachi draft and the Lee draft so we can see how Lee passes notability without Itachi getting in the way and vice versa. Sasuke9031 (talk) 04:06, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Do you mean this?Tintor2 (talk) 16:41, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Even if Chiyo was a one-arc character, she played a much bigger role in the plot than several recurring characters we ARE listing, so I still choose to support mentioning her. Both Sasori's section on the villains page and Gaara's article still mention Chiyo, but without mentioning her, this confuses the reader and leaves them with no clue who this "Chiyo" is. I saw Shukaku coming, but I'm fine with that, it isn't that big a deal. As for Rock Lee, conception is clearly lacking, but other anime and manga article already made GA without conception information (Rukia Kuchiki, for example), so there really isn't much harm giving him an article (it would look good for us if we get another GA ^_^ ). Tsunade has no hope for meeting the criteria, so we should just merge her here already. And I know I've brought this up several times before, but why are we still ignoring the character article not at GA right now? (Naruto, Gaara, Shikamaru, and Jiraiya) Aren't they important too? Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 20:20, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

That's fine. I'll incorporate her when I have some time. For the individual character articles, it's because this will be the first character list for WP:ANIME to become a featured list if it passes, and I have a predisposition towards featured lists. Remember that we're volunteers - we aren't obligated to work on anything really. That said, I'll work on getting them up to par after this goes through. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 20:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Does that also mean Lee will get his own article, too? Also, if we want to be the first anime and manga characters list to make Featured List status, than we should hurry. List of Fruits Basket characters could beet us at this rate. Artist Formerly Known As Whocares (talk) 20:32, 10 June 2008 (UTC)