Talk:List of Muslims/Proposed Organization A

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I moved the proposal to the "article" page, so we have room to talk here. --Striver 23:46, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, i have several comments. Lets see if we can work though them in a pleasant manner, God willing. But before that, I would like to applaud Joturner for making this proposal. Although i have comments, i love the spirit behind it.

I would like to have a article about the specific proffesion, for example "Islamic medicin". Those article whould bo more theoretical and historical, going through what the Sharia was said to opine about "Islamic medicin", where it originated, evolved and how it went compared to other forms of medicin.

Then we could have a article about "Muslim doctors" that talka about the more human side of it, maybe the usual age of becoming a Muslim doctor in different ages, what the recuirments was to be called that, where the doctors usualy practiced and who could afford their services, and such.

A contrast between "Muslim doctors" and "Islamic medicin", in the same way that Fiqh talks about Sharia and schools of thought and historical aspect, while Ulema goes to the human level, talking about what roles the Ulema has in different countries, what they studie, how old they are and such.

At first, i thout that we should link it this way:

For the theoretical level:

For the human level:


Then we could link Muslim doctors and Islamic medicine to eachother.

At first, i thought we could creat List of Muslim doctors to accomodate for only a list of individuals, according to birth, and then add stuff like nationality, school of thought and such, just like in Muslim soldiers. And then link Muslim doctors and List of Muslim doctors to eachother. But now, that seems redundant, lets have Muslim doctors and List of Muslim doctors merged, at least until, and if, they get to big, then they can be split.

Also, i dont support merging Muslim astronomers and Muslim doctors into List of Muslim scientists. First, i want three different list, one for each. Muslim scientists should have a total list of all scientist, while Muslim astronomers and Muslim doctors do not. Some people will go multiple lists, for example Al-Razi who was many things. Second, since we dont merge Islamic astronomy and Islamic medicine into Islamic science.


In short, here is what i propose:

For the theoretical level:

  • Islamic Studies - the umbrela term, linking to Islamic science and Islamic philosophy
  • Islamic science - the specific field of studies, linking to subarticles like Islamic astronomy and Islamic medicine. Talks about Sharia, comparing with non-Islamic sience, talks about its own development in history, talks about the instruments it developted and how it benefited science and such.


For the human level:

  • Muslim - the general term, linking to Muslim sciencists and muslim philosopers
  • Muslim scientists - the specific people, linking to subarticles like Muslim astronomers and Islamic doctors. Talks about the general enviroment of each era, for example going to universities and speicalizing now days, while they mastered multiple fields in the past, how it generaly impacted on family relations, the scientists status in the comunity and a list of scientists.

What do you think? --Striver 00:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

We could try to build guidlines. Here is a example:


The theoretical articles like Islamic medicine should limit itself to:

  • More general text, avoiding to much information on individuals and focusing on the proffesion.
  • Boundries set by the Sharia.
  • History of each era
  • Comparision with non-Islamic counterparts
  • Hadith and Qur'an texts relevant to the issue
  • arabic Etymology of the word
  • Name of significant works and books
  • Impact on the world

The human level articles like Muslim doctors should limit itself to:

  • More specific text, avoiding to much information on proffesionand focusing on the individuals.
  • Typical life of the Muslim doing the proffesion, in each era.
  • How Family relations was affected by the job, in each era
  • How they got the education, in each era
  • The status they enjoied in their community on each era
  • Names of some most significant Muslim in the proffesion
  • A list of Muslims in the proffesion

Comments`? --Striver 00:39, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I think we should have articles for specific fields, but those seem like they are already complete. If you look at Islamic studies, you see links to several articles pertaining to Islamic studies. However, I do not understand why we need an article on Muslim doctors, for instance. Aren't those just doctors who are Muslims? What is so notable about that? If the description is short, it can go on the individual pages for the lists of professionals. joturner 00:44, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Section break

Yes, i created all links in Islamic studies. This is what it looked like before i got to it: [[1]]. Gues how much credit i got for that? Yeah, the usual amount: Zero (0).

I belive it would be good to have Muslim doctors and include all the things i listed above. Ill list them again:

  • More specific text about Muslim doctors, avoiding to much information on Islamic medicine.
  • Typical life of the Muslim doctors, in each era.
  • How family relations was affected by being a Muslim doctor, in each era
  • How the Muslim doctors got their education, in each era
  • The status Muslim doctors enjoied in their community on each era
  • Names of some most significant Muslim doctors
  • A list of Muslim doctors

Of course is that information available for each individual, but i was aiming at a more comprehensive article about how the Muslim doctor generaly lived, and doing so for each generation. there is a vast difference between the general life of a Muslim doctors now and in the 9th century. And this article could cover that.

What do you think? --Striver 01:02, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Thanks

Thanks you joturner, for leaving dialog, not responding to my objections and unilaterally implementing your plan. Of course, i wont just sitt and look while you totaly ignore my efforts to talk.--Striver 11:11, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I did respond to your proposal. The comments in the Section break section appeared to me to be a reiteration of your previous comments (and thus would attract the same response from me). Because no one was really responding to the proposal or the idea of reorganization, I decided to opt for the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. And also, I believe you said in your original post here, "I would like to applaud Joturner for making this proposal. Although i have comments, i love the spirit behind it." I love the spirit behind it? Didn't sound like a complete objection to me. If that was one, I didn't get that from your post. It just appeared to me as though you wanted a different organization system. Create a new one at List of Muslims/Proposed Organization B. joturner 11:25, 23 February 2006 (UTC)


I meant i liked your drive to make a atemp to improve Wikipedia, and also your effort to make Proposed Organization. I didnt mean to offend you, i just expected a respons, any respons. However, you are correct that you are entitled in being bold, and thanks for suggesting List of Muslims/Proposed Organization B, i will do that. Now, im going to be bold and revert you. --Striver 12:24, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

That is simply a copy of your post on Talk:List of Muslims/Proposed Organization A. Why don't you try making exactly what you want the page to look like. From your post and List of Muslims/Proposed Organization B, I still don't see exactly what you want. joturner 21:47, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Then i guess im stuck... i dont see how i can be more clear... sorry :S --Striver 22:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to say that you should probably make exactly like what will replace the current List of Muslims article. With List of Muslims/Proposed Organization A, I made exactly what I proposed for the actual page. When I overhauled the List of Muslims page, I just had to copy the code from List of Muslims/Proposed Organization A to List of Muslims and then remove all the comments. If you were to create an exact replica your proposal, I (and others as well) would be able to understand exactly what you're talking about and then potentially propose a List of Muslims/Proposed Organization C that would combine aspects for both organizations. joturner 23:15, 24 February 2006 (UTC)