Talk:List of Middle-earth Orcs
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[edit] Shagrat/Gorbag mixup
Was just reviewing the Appendices to the Extended Edition of Return Of The King DVD, and on this Wikipedia article, Shagrat and Gorbag have gotten transposed, because the Orc identified here as Gorbag is indicated to be Shagrat on the DVD. Think about it—why would Gorbag have Shagrat's lines, as well as Shagrat's loyalty to the Great Eye? not to mention that it's Gorbag that makes off with Frodo's mithril shirt. I'm not going to edit the article; I'll leave that to someone else. I've said my piece. Irishchieftain 09:30, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree 100% they did have a mix up with names —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.228.49.45 (talk) 22:09, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Why didn't you just edit it in the first place??? Uthanc 07:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
There was in fact a Shagrat/Gorbag mix-up in the original Wikipedia entry. It's an easy enough mistake to make as many of the lines and attitudes of the two characters were completely mix-and-matched in the film - ours not to reason why, probably something to do with the wretchedly pro-elf, anti-orc agenda that's been apparent in all of Tolkien's work (as plainly as the nose on Gorbag's face for example) all along. I'll rectify the switcharound by editing it in a minute. There's no doubt that Shagrat's the uruk in the film - it says he is on all my action-figures of him. (Dec 2007).17:00, 7 December 2007 (UTC)draylon —Preceding unsigned comment added by Draylon (talk • contribs)
Of course - why didn't anyone else mention the toys? Yes, Shagrat is the Uruk. [1] Uthanc (talk) 19:11, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
This is confusing. I don't have the Jackson DVDs in front of me, but if they identify the larger Uruk as "Shagrat" and the bandy-legged orc as "Gorbag", then the DVDs themselves are mistaken, as are the toys that came out subsequently. At some point in the film's production, an error crept in, and the misidentification persisted. Interesting that so obvious a mistake could be made and not corrected, but there are many errors and inconsistencies in the films that appear unintentional.
I have to disagree with the person above who said that the Shagrat and Gorbag characters in the film were mixed and matched to such an extent that identification is difficult. Although the whole scene (which could have been one of the best) was depicted hurridly and poorly, it is clear that the bandy-legged orc is Shagrat, Captain of the Tower, and the larger orc is Gorbag, from the City. The bandy-legged orc does everything Shagrat does in the book-- he identifies Frodo as still being alive and only paralyzed by Shelob's poison, orders the orc patrols back to the tower, is clearly in charge of the tower, refuses to "strip" Frodo but maintains that the hobbit and his possesions are wanted by Lugburz, kills the leader of the Minas Morgul orcs when he tries to take Frodo's mithril coat, and tortures Frodo in the end. Conversely, the larger orc, although not characterized as much, reprises Gorbag's book-role-- he is the leaders of the City orc patrol, goes back to the tower bit is clearly not in charge of the tower, is obsessed with having "fun" w/ Frodo, covets the mithril coat, and is killed by the tower's captain.
There you have it, in a nutshell-- the bandy-legged orc is Captain Shagrat, the Bigger Uruk is Gorbag. If the films themselves get this wrong and misidentify the two, it is a bit of interesting trivia. I can't imagine any motivation for "switching" names but leaving roles almost entirely the same, so I presume it was just a mistake. As far as wikipedia is concerned-- if the films "switch," the names, I guess you have to go with that, at least as far as images are concerned. I think it would be worth a succint reference to the fact that an apparent error was made, however. When I get a chance to confirm that the DVDs do indeed seem to misidentify the orcs (based on the roles they have in the books), I'll suggest an edit.
I also noticed that several of these entries contain inaccurate information or assertions. The most ridiculous is in the "Gorbag" entry where it states that Gorbag was so "disturbed" by the Nazgul in Minas Morgul that he "moved" to Cirith Ungol with Shagrat. Good grief. Gorbag was a captain, probably at the level of a company commander, in the service of the orc legion stationed in Minas Morgul. He was part of the garrison that remained behind and did not go to the assault on Minas Tirith. He did not "move" to Cirith Ungol! Shagrat was a Captain of higher rank, and the overrall commander of the Tower of Cirith Ungol.169.253.4.21 (talk) 13:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)TexxasFinn
[edit] Lurtz' etymology
The article suggests that Lurtz was named after Lugburz, but doesn't it seem more likely that he was named after Lurch of the Addam's Family? It would go along with his height and lack of speech. 137.21.66.141 19:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
- Is there any info from the writers on the topic? Uthanc 21:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
The story I heard I like best, and therefore officially believe, is that he was named after a kid who used to steal Peter Jackson's lunch-money when they were at school.
[edit] Guritz?
A Google search for "Guritz" and "Orc" shows nothing about this Orc. [2] So what is it? Fake? Is it from the Jackson trading card game? Uthanc 21:06, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Early legendarium orcs
Currently the article includes bits of information on the orcs from the early Tolkien's writings, namely: Balcmeg, Gorgol, Lug, Orcobal and Othrod. These derive mostly from the Fall of Gondolin written in late 1910s and never rewritten later. There is no evidence that Tolkien would have preserved them (nor that he would discard them, though). The names were at that time given explanation in Elvish languages, and though possibly fitting in style later conceptions of Orkish, can't be readily counted 'canon'. I propose creating some List of characters in early writings of J. R. R. Tolkien and moving them there, together with any other similar entities as Gimli the Gnome, leaders of Gondolin etc. Súrendil 08:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
- Sounds OK. They could also be a substantial addition to an article on the Fall of Gondolin. The list sounds really good. The sort of thing no-one has done, but which we can easily source directly to the books. You could also mention Gandalf the dwarf (who became Thorin), and other stuff from the early Hobbit drafts. Carcharoth 12:25, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- But where do we draw the line on "early" and superseded characters? Uthanc 13:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- Make the list(s) first, I think. Then step back and decide on a re-organisation if needed. Some of the names will be very obscure. Others will deserve to be mentioned in other articles (eg. Trotter). Carcharoth 23:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
- But where do we draw the line on "early" and superseded characters? Uthanc 13:40, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Grishnákh: Uruk or Orc?
In the film he was almost certainly an orc, and I have seen things on the internet that say he could have been either Uruk or Orc. While reading my lotr book I came across this piece of text:
"At that moment Pippin saw why some of the troop had been pointing eastward. From that direction there now came hoarse cries, and there was Grishnákh again, and at his back a couple of score of others like him: long-armed crooked-legged orcs." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.226.127 (talk) 16:38, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Gorbag 1.jpg
Image:Gorbag 1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 23:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Grishnakh.jpg
Image:Grishnakh.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.
BetacommandBot (talk) 23:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
