Talk:List of Michigan trunklines

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[edit] Naming

[edit] List of Michigan Trunklines

Thank you for looking after Michigan trunkline articles, but your move earlier wasn't proper. According to USRD naming guidelines, there is the articles List of Interstate Highways in X, Lists of US Highways in X, etc. In both other cases, the "H" in highway is capitalized as shorthand for the Interstate Highway System or the US Numbered Highway System. In Michigan it is officially the Michigan State Trunkline Highway System as they are defined, so the list should stay at List of Michigan Trunklines since Trunkline is part of a proper name. It was moved once while I was creating the table, and yes it's very disorienting to have an article moved out from under you while creating/expanding it. I'd welcome any comments or questions you have.Imzadi1979 (talk) 05:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about that. But did not think Trunkline was used as a proper noun in the way it was formulated in the title. How was it determined that "Michigan State Trunkline Highway System" is a proper noun? I'm not familiar with that term and have not seen it used in that form on the MDOT web site. If you look at publications such as A Citizen's Guide to MDOT 2007, "trunkline" is only capitalized in headings and when part of a name, such as for a specific fund. There are only two instances of the words "Trunkline System", and in both cases, the words are lower case.
I think I see now where the name comes from. Public Act 51 of 1951, State Trunk Line Highway System established the system. However, even within that, trunkline is not capitalized in running text. In fact, if you look closely at the title of the act, Trunk Line is actually two words. I think there needs to be more discussion about how the List of Michigan Trunklines is titled and capitalized. older ≠ wiser 11:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, under the USRD naming conventions, names of systems of hIghways are compound proper nouns. Since the 1951 enactment of PA 51, "trunkline" has been concatenated to a single word. MCL 247.953 deals with establishing the Heritage Route System and uses the combined word form. The signs posted along municipal and county boundaries regulated snowmobile traffic, such as the ones here in Traverse City, mention whether or not the machines can run on city streets or just county roads and state trunklines. Yes, the usage has been inconsistent over the years, but you'll also notice that the relevent MCL sections on the highway systems don't capitalize Interstate Highway System, or United States Numbered Interstate Highway System, or variations on the names for those two systems. That's why when I originally started to overhaul the list into an actual article and split the lists out, it was named "List of Michigan Trunklines", although it probably should be changed to "List of Michigan State Trunkline HIghways". Imzadi1979 (talk) 16:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
A couple things:
  • First, looking at the Mich legislature page - I have to agree with BKonrad, but M-DOT doesn't use that, nor do many other reliable sources - so I'm confused. A Google search on "michigan state trunkline" shows that M-DOT, the Michigan Senate, and some universities use "trunkline" while other sources use "trunk line"
  • Second, the same search shows inconsistencies about whether it's a proper noun or not.
Recommendation - follow the law.  — master sonT - C 17:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I think I'd be OK with either List of Michigan State Trunk Line Highways or List of Michigan State Trunkline Highways (with slight preference for the former). One additional issue with the current title is that it is somewhat ambiguous, since railways also use the term trunkline and it is not clear that this list is about highway trunklines. While I don't think I would capitalize the name of the system either, if that is the accepted convention of the USRD project, then so be it. Section 247.651 states: All roads, streets and highways included in the state trunk line highway system, as constituted and defined in this section, shall hereafter be known officially, and may be referred to for all purposes, as state trunk line highways. older ≠ wiser 18:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Unless I'm mistaken, there's no such thing as "USRD naming conventions" other than WP:USSH, which doesn't say anything about systems of highways or titles of list articles.

That being said, if there's an established proper noun for a system (such as Interstate Highway System), then that can be used and should be capitalized. However, google search shows in no uncertain terms that "Michigan State Trunkline Highway System" is a neologism and should not be used. (Ditto Michigan State Trunkline Highways.) While I haven't gone through and checked every state, in my experience the most common title would be List of state highways in Michigan. List of trunklines in Michigan or List of trunkline highways in Michigan would be perfectly acceptable in this case though. -- Kéiryn talk 18:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Those titles would be fine by me as well. older ≠ wiser 18:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
As an aside, whichever one is chosen, all these other redlinks we've created would still be perfectly acceptable as redirects (even the capitalized neologism-y ones). -- Kéiryn talk 18:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Two things:

  1. It seems like the best name is list of state trunklines in Michigan or list of trunklines in Michigan, since the phrase as commonly used does not include "Michigan".
  2. Why doesn't this include Interstates and U.S. Highways? MDOT definitely includes them in the state trunkline system; see for instance page 7 of [1].

--NE2 20:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Re #2, once upon a time it did. Then it expanded to include county-designated routes, business routes, named expressways and various other stuff. The current list is the result of paring down the fat from the main article. But I agree with the point in general. If the list claims to be about trunklines, then it should include interstates and U.S. routes. If it is trying to be a list of "M-xx" numbered routes in Michigan, then the list needs a different name. older ≠ wiser 22:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)