Talk:List of Kings of the Picts

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[edit] Questions on Naming

Hmm, I have a problem, not with the dates, as they will be varied from source to source, but I have a problem with names, the source i got this from gives slightly different names to one i am looking at on the net, I think it's due to translation, but it shows that all the Drest's were called Drust, which affect the numbering; here is the source: [1].

I think I will use the above website, as it's what i am using for the kings of Dalriada. I also believe the website is quite accurate. -fonzy

Drest/Drust and Bridei/Bruide are just spelling differences in this case, not word differences. You should also be aware that some scholars think that the words "Brude" and "Drust" may actually be titles rather than names but no one is very sure about it. -- Derek Ross

They're probably language differences actually (Bridei/Drust being Pictish; Bruide/Drest being Scottish). - Calgacus 22:54, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Surely these names should be rendered in Pictish since the names of Gaelic monarchs are renderd in Gaelic?
84.135.196.115 17:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Since surviving documentary sources are almost entirely in Old Irish, Middle Irish, Latin, and Middle French, this isn't really an option. The only king names found on monumental sources, from memory, are forms of Drost[en], Custantin, Talorg[an], Nechtan and Ferat, and only Onuist/Ungus and Bruide are convincingly recoverable from documentary sources. Anyway, by either of the competing theories concerning kings from 761 to 839, the great majority of rulers after 696 were of part-Gaelic origin. Then you'd need to consider the ones who were part Anglian (Talorgan f. Eanfrith and Bridei f. Bili at least). In my opinion, which counts as original research, Pictland and Picts are misleading constructs, and the Pictish language was only a group of dialects of Insular Celtic languages. Angus McLellan (Talk) 00:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Poppleton Pictish Kinglist

Here is the list of Pictish kings from Óengus I mac Fergusa (i.e. Onuist, son of Urgust), with the names and year lengths as they appear in the text. I was wondering where good old Bred was?

  • Onuist filius Urguist, xxx regnauit
  • Bredei filius Uirguist, ii
  • Ciniod filius Uuredech, xij
  • Elpin filius Uuroid, iij
  • Drest filius Talorgen, iiij. uel v
  • Canaul filius Tarl'a, v
  • Castantin filius Uurguist, xxx.v
  • Unuist filius Uurguist, xii.
  • Drest filius Constantini et Talorgen filius Uuthoil, xii conregnauerunt
  • Uuen filius Unuist iij.
  • Uurad filius Bargoit, iii
  • Bred, i

(the list has been cut off here, were Ciniod filius Elpin would have appeared).

It's generally accepted that Bred is an alternate name for Bridei VI of the Picts. Since this text was written in Latin and possible translated from the Scottish language with Gaelic language intrusions, it is very possible that they are variants of the same name. I used the Poppleton text for the compiling of this list of Pictish kings. The link at the bottom of the main article goes to a very good translation of it and compares it to the Latin text, also listed.
–Whaleyland 23:02, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] List of Kings in the Lebor Bretnach, a Gaelic translation (with additions) written in Scotland

This is a Pictish kinglist, going from Bridei, the first historical king from other sources. It was inserted into the Lebor Bretnach in the 2nd half of the 11th century, when the Lebor Bretnach was composed (probably at Abernethy; which held a king-list):

  • Bruide mac Maelcon .xxx. a. r. Mochtaauuo anno regni eit baibtizatus est. Esancto Columba.
  • Gartnait f. Domnach .xi. a. r.
  • Neachtan nepo. Uerp .xx. a. r.
  • Cinhoint f. Luitriu .xix. a. r.
  • Gartnait mac Uiud .u. a. r.
  • Tolorc frater eorum duodeicim a. r.
  • Tolorcan f. Enfret .iiii.
  • Gartnairt f. Donuel .ui. a. r. & deimidium anni.
  • Drusc frater eius .uii. a. r.
  • Bride f. Fle .xx. a. r.
  • Taran f. En Fidaid .iiii.
  • Brei f. Deirilei .xi. a. r.
  • Nechtan f. Deirile .x. a. r.
  • Drest & Elpen conneganaueint .u. a. r.
  • Onbes f. Urgurt .xxx. a. r.
  • Breite f. Uugut .xu. a. r.
  • Ciniod f. Iuuredeg .xu. a. r.
  • Alpin f. Uuoid .iii. annis regnauit & dimidon regni.
  • Drest f. Talorcan .i. a. r.
  • Talorcan f. Drostan u uel .u. deg.
  • Talorcen f. Onust .xii. & dimidoin a. r.
  • Canul f. Tang .u. a. r.
  • Cuastantin f. Uurguist .xxxu.
  • Uidnust f. Uurgust .xii. an. r.
  • Drost f. Consatin & Tolorc f. Uuthoil .iii. a. r. conregnauerunt.
  • Unen f. Unest .iii.
  • Urad f. Bargoit .iii. a. & Brod .io. a. r.
  • Cinaed f. Ailpin .xui. a. r.
  • Domnall f. Ailpin .iiii. r. & Custantan f. Cinaeda .xx. a. r.
  • Aed f. Cinaed .io. a. r.
  • Girig mac Dungaile .xi. uel .iii. a. r.
  • Domnall f. Consantin .xi. a. r.
  • Constantin f. Aed .xlu. a. r.
  • Maelcolaim f. Domnaill .ix. a. r.
  • Cuilein f. Ildoilb f. Constandtin .iiii. a. r.
  • Cinaed, uel Dub, f. Mailcolaim .uii. a. r.
  • Cuilein .i. dimidoin r..
  • Cinaed f. Duib. ocht a. r.
  • Maelcolaim mac Cinaeda .xxx. a. reg.
  • Dondchad ua Mailcolaim .uii. r.
  • Macbeathad mac Fin mic Laig .xui. a. r.
  • Lulach .u. mis.
  • Maelcolaim mac Colaim mic Donncaid iar sin.


I notice that Bred (as Brod) is mentioned again, reigning with Urad. - Calgacus 23:09, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

This list does not seem to contradict any of the previous lists of Pictish kings, including that on the main page. The name Bred/Brod is the only real inconsistancy as the names begin with the kings of Alba thereafter. The Pictish Chronicle states that the last three kings of the Picts were against Kenneth I of Scotland, an account that seems to parallel this list considering there are two kings simultaneously.
–Whaleyland 00:11, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Pictish kings" in the (mainly Irish) Annals

Here's something bodged up from material on the CELT site (Annals of Ulster, Tigernach, Innsfallen & the Four Masters, Chronicon Scotorum) which may be of assistance to anyone editing articles on Pictish kings. It is surely not exhaustive. There are translations on CELT, which would presumably be under copyright, of all but the Annals of Tigernach. The EH and CB entries are from the etext (pdf) of Sellar's translation at CCEL.

  • AU580: Cennalath, rex Pictorum, moritur.
  • AT581: Mors Bruidhe maic Maelchon, rig Cruithneach.
  • AI583: Mors Bruidi m. Máelcon.
  • AU584: Mors Bruide mc. Maelcon regis Pictorum
  • AT597: Bass Gartnaidh regis Pictorum.
  • AU631: ... mors Cinedon filii Lugthreni, regis Pictorum.
  • CS631: Mors Cineda meic Luchtren regis Pictorum.
  • AI633: Mors Cinaeda, ríg Alban
  • AT633: Bas Cínaetha maic Luchtren, regis Pictorum.
  • AU635: Mors Gartnain m. Foith.
  • CS641: ... bas Bruide meic Foith.
  • AT656: Bas Tolorcain maic Ainfrith, ríg Cruithne.
  • AT672: Expulsió Drostó de reghno
  • AU672: Expulsio Drosto de regno
  • EH685: Egfrid, king of the Northumbrians, was slain.
  • AI691: Quies ... (Bruidi m. Bili), rig Cruithnech.
  • AT693: Bruidhe mac Bile rex Fortrend moritur et Ailpin mac Nechtain.
  • AU693: Bruide m. Bili, rex Fortrend, moritur, & Alphin m. Nectin.
  • AT698: Cath eter Saxones et Pictos, uibi cecidit filius Berníth, qui dicebatur Brechtraidh.
  • AU698: Bellum inter Saxones & Pictos ubi cecidit filius Bernith qui dicebatur Brectrid.
  • AU703: Fergussan m. Maelcon moritur.
  • AT706: Bruide mac Der Ile mortuus est.
  • AU706: Bruide m. Der Ili moritur.
  • AT711: Strages Pictorum in Campo Manand apud Saxonés, uibi Findgaíne mac Deleroith inmatura morte iacuit.
  • AU711: Strages Pictorum in Campo Manonn apud Saxones ubi Finnguine filius Deile Roith inmatura morte iacuit.
  • EH711: the commander Bertfrid fought with the Picts.
  • AT713: Cinaedh mac Der Ili et filius Mathgernan iugulati sunt.
  • AU713: Ciniod m. Der Ili, & filius Maithgernain iugulati sunt.
  • AT713: Tolarg mac Drostain ligatur apud fratem suum Nechtan regem.
  • AU713: Tolargg filius Drostain ligatur apud fratrem suum Nectan regem.
  • AT717: Expulsio familiae Íe trans Dorsum Britanie a Nectano rege.
  • AU717: Expulsio familie Ie trans Dorsum Brittanie a Nectano rege.
  • AT724: Clericatus Neactain reigis Pictorum. Drust postea regnat.
  • AT725: Simal filius Druist constringuitur.
  • AU725: Simul filius Druis constringitur.
  • AT726: Nechtan mac Der Ili constringuitur apud Druist regem.
  • AU726: Nectan m. Deir Ile constringitur apud Druist regem.
  • AU726: Tolarggan Maphan moritur.
  • AM726: Neachtan, mac Der Ili d'écc.
  • AT728: Cath Monaidh Craebi iter Picardachaib fein Aengus & Alpine, is siat tuc in cath, & ro memaidh ria n-Aengus, & ro marbad mac Ailpin and, & ro gab Aengus nert.
  • AU728: Bellum Mónidchroibh inter Pictores inuicem, ubi Oenghus uictor fuit & multi ex parte Eilpini regis perempti sunt. Bellum lacrimabile inter eosdem gestum est iuxta Castellum Credi, ubi Elpinus efugit.
  • AT728: Cath truagh iter Picardachaib ac Caislen Credhi, & ro memaidh ar in Ailphin cetna, & ro benadh a cricha & a daine de uile, & ro gab Nechtain mac Der Ili ríghi na Picardach.
  • AT729: Cath Droma Deirg Blathuug eter Piccardaib Drust & Aengus rí na Piccardach, & ro marbad Drust &, in dara la deg do mis Aughuist.
  • AU729: Bellum Monith Carno iuxta Stagnum Loogde inter hostem Nectain & exercitum Oengusa & exactatores Nectain ceciderunt; hoc est: Biceot m. Moneit & filius eius, Finguine m. Drostain, Feroth m. Finnguine & quidam multi, & familia Oengussa triumphauit.
  • AU729: Bellum Dromo Dergg Blathuug in regionibus Pictorum inter Oengus & Drust regem Pictorum, & cecidit Drust.
  • AT731: Cath eter mac Aengusa & mac Congusa sed Brudheus uicit Talorcum fugientem.
  • AU731: Bellum inter filium Oengussa & filium Congussa, sed Bruideus uicit Talorcum fugientem.
  • AT732: Nechtan mac Der Ile moritur.
  • AT734: Tolarg mac Congusa a brathair fen dia gabail & tuc i l-laim na Piccardach, & ro báidhedh leo-siden h-e.
  • AU734: Talorgg m. Congusso a fratre suo uinctus est, traditur in manus Pictorum & cum illis in aqua demersus est.
  • AU734: Talorrggan filius Drostain conprehensus alligatur iuxta Arcem Ollaigh.
  • AT736: Aengus mac Fergusa, rex Picctorum uastauit regiones Dail Riata, et obtenuit Dun Ad, et combussit Creic, et duos filios Selbaich catenis alligauit Dondgal & Feradhach, et pauló post Brudeus mac Aengusa maic Fergusa obit.
  • AU736: Oengus m. Fergusso, rex Pictorum, uastauit regiones Dail Riatai & obtenuit Dun At & combussit Creic & duos filios Selbaich catenis alligauit, Donngal & Feradach; & paulo post Brudeus m. Oengusa filii Fergusso obiit.
  • AT739: Tolarcan mac Drostan, rex Athfhotla, a bathadh la h-Aengus.
  • AU739: Talorggan m. Drostain, rex Athfoitle, dimersus est
  • AT750: Cath eter Pictones et Britones, i testa Tolargan mac Fergusa & a brathair, & ár Picardach imaille friss.
  • AU750: Bellum Catohic inter Pictones & Brittones in quo cecidit Talorggan mc. Forggussa, frater Oengussa.
  • AU750: Aithbe flatho Oengussa.
  • AT752: Cath Asreith in terra Circin inter Pictones inuicem, in quo cecidit Bruidhi mac Maelchon.
  • AT759: Aengus rí Alban moritur.
  • AT761: Aengus mac Fergusa, rex Pictorum, moritur.
  • AU761: Mors Oengusa m. Fherghussa regis Pictorum.
  • CB761: Oengus, king of the Picts, died; who from the beginning to the end of his reign, continued to be a blood-stained and tyrannical butcher
  • AT763: Bruidhi rí Fortrenn mortuus est.
  • AU763: Bruide, rex Fortrenn, moritur.
  • AU768: Bellum i Fortrinn iter Aedh & Cinaedh.
  • AM771: Aodh Finn, tighearna Dál Riada, d'eug.
  • AU778: ... & Aedh Finn m. Echdach rex Dal Riati, omnes mortui sunt.
  • AU780: Eilpin, rex Saxonum, moritur.
  • AU781: ... & Fergus m. Ecach ri Dal Riati, omnes defuncti sunt.
  • AU782: ... & Dub Tholargg rex Pictorum citra Monoth ... omnes perierunt.
  • AU789: Bellum inter Pictos ubi Conall m. Taidhg uictus est & euassit; & Constantin uictor fuit.
  • AU790: Bellum Conaill & Custantin hic scriptum est in aliis libris.
  • AU792: ... Donn Corci rex Dal Riatai ... obierunt.
  • AU794: Uastatio omnium insolarum Britannie a gentilibus.
  • AU802: I Columbe Cille a gentibus combusta est.
  • AI807: Guin Congail m. Thaidg i n-Albain.
  • AU807: Iugulatio Conaill m. Taidhg o Chonall m. Aedhaein i Ciunn Tire.
  • AI820: Mors Causantín meicc Fergussa, rig Alban.
  • AU820: Custantin m. Fergusa, rex Fortreinn, moritur.
  • AU831: Diarmait do tiachtain i nh-Erinn co mindaibh Coluim Cille.
  • AU834: Oengus m. Fergusa, rex Fortrenn, moritur.
  • AM835: Gofraidh, mac Ferghusa, toiseach Oirghiall do imthecht go h-Albain do nertughadh Dhail Riada, tré fhorchongradh Chionathe mic Ailpin.
  • AU839: Bellum re genntib for firu Fortrenn in quo ceciderunt Euganan m. Oengusa & Bran m. Oengussa & Ed m. Boanta & alii pene innumerabiles ceciderunt.
  • AU849: Indrechtach, abbas Iae, do thiachtain dochum n-Erenn co mindaibh Coluim Cille.
  • AI858: Cináed macc Alpín, ri Alban.
  • AU858: Cinaedh m. Ailpin rex Pictorum & ... mortui sunt.

Feel free to revise this if you see any errors or omissions, thanks ! Angus McLellan 14:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kineth Ciniod and Cinaed

Can I suggest that Kineth of the Picts be renamed Ciniod II of the Picts or Cináed II of the Picts; Kineth is Norman corruption (pre-Norman Insular languages do not use k, except in a few exceptional Latin words, like Kalends). - Calgacus 15:59, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Seemed good to me, so I did it. Ciniod II of the Picts it is. Which leaves Uurad of the Picts sticking out like a sore thumb. The PC lists in the back of Cummins The Age of the Picts give his name (assuming that all refer to him) as Wrad, Ferat and Ferech once each, and as Ferach twice. Ungus is at Óengus, the Drusts are Drests, the Brudes are Brideis. Why is poor Ferach mac (hmm, what is the OI name corresponding to Bargoit, if any ?) treated differently ? Angus McLellan 18:09, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
Wrad is exactly the same as Uurad, and it's generally better (and preferred by Celticists) to render it Uu rather than W, because W makes it look like an English consonant or a Welsh vowel. Many would think that all Drests should be Drusts, and names generally kept Pictish, even if it is relatively clear that they used the Gaelic language. Why are they treated differently? Arbitrariness, reflecting the incremental nature of the wiki editing. Bargoit, if it isn't Gaelic, doesn't seem to have any Pictish form. The only place I can find him is the Pictish king lists, and if this is the only source for his name, this makes his name very unreliable. - Calgacus 18:27, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Argh! My eyes!

I'm glad there's a table now, and the information in it looks useful and interesting, But the neon colourscheme really is very extreme. At the very least we should tone it down to more pastel shades, like Tallest structures in Paris. Moreover, most of the featured lists (of those that use tables) don't use colour simply to aid readability by alternating - while Tallest structures in Paris does, most (e.g. List of notable brain tumor patients, List of Northwest Territories general elections, List of signatories of the United States Constitution, List of United States Senate committees, and List of Portuguese monarchs) don't. I think we shouldn't use colour where it isn't meaningful. If we could ascribe some meaning to it (such as different colours for different noble houses) we should still use a more muted scheme, like Timeline of discovery of Solar System planets and their natural satellites. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 20:32, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree. The color scheme seems quite unencyclopedic and un-Wikipedia-ish. But I note that 20 months-on from Finlay McWalters comment, no editor has yet stepped up to modify it. N2e (talk) 14:59, 14 January 2008 (UTC)