Talk:List of Jewish American show business figures

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To user 70.19.57.102

Obviously you do not have very accurate information if you think Cyd Charrise was Jewish and that Sean-Flynn Amir is Jane Seymour's son.

Charisse was not Jewish at all and Amir is the son of an Israeli father and a woman who is Erol Flynn's daughter. Jane Seymour is half Jewish, btw. But never mind that. Cornel Wilde was married in a Catholic ceremony because his wife was a devout Catholic, but he was Jewish and raised Jewish and never converted, etc. etc. I can continue with the rest of the actors but my space should be limited.

Now - Wikipedia aims to take the broadest view and these lists are not dictated by any form of Jewish religious law. If we did that then these lists would be, in essence, biased. Not every single Jewish person and certainly not every non-Jew accepts Jewish religious law (the whole Jewish mother thing). Many sects of Judaism have different view points on that subject too (some consider only people with a Jewish father to be Jewish).

Of course, ignoring that, "Jewish" is also very much an ethnicity and these lists aim to reflect that as well.

And yes, for example, Kevin Kline and Jerry Orbach were raised Catholic but both have Jewish fathers, and both (or Kline at least) have expressed identification as Jewish as well.

In the cultural melting pot that is today's America many have varied backgrounds and these lists should reflect that. Thus Kevin Kline can be listed under Famous Catholics, Famous Irish (his mother's ancestry), and indeed Famous Jews (his father's).

All of the people you attempted to delete are at least part Jewish and most, if not all, identify as Jewish ethnically if not religiously. If you want links proving every one give me a list of names and I will provide you with a link. But you can't go on enforcing the "Jewish mother" rule since Wikipedia is not run from a distinct religious viewpoint, obviously. Frankly if you keep deleting them I will just keep restoring them and that is counter-productive.

Wikipedia should aim to provide the fullest information available and let the visitor decide what they think. Someone like you may think these people aren't "Jewish" in your sense of that word, but others may differ on that opinion.

-User 24.141.149.226, July 30, 2005

Chris Klein - listed as having a Jewish father. Can anyone back that one up? I've seen no confirming info anywhere.

I doubt the claim that Victor Borge was Jewish. Does anyone have any documentation for this? -- Jmabel | Talk 19:24, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

Here's his obituary from the Encyclopedia Britannica – just search for "Jew".

Also see: [1], [2], [3], [4]. Juko 22:18, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Kevin Costner? I highly doubt that, does anyone have any evidence/circumstances that might back this up? Johnhpaulin

I did a bit of research into this, and found out that his hertiage is Irish, German and Cherokee. Not that German and Jewish are mutually exclusive, but I've found no evidence of him being half-Jewish (presumably on his mother's side) at all. I think that the entry should be deleted. Johnhpaulin

Kevin Costner is not Jewish. I read a full-length book biography. His mother was a Baptist and he was raised a Baptist. His father wasn't Jewish either (he was the one with the Native American roots).

[edit] many don't fit well into one category.

First of all, excellent list! Would anybody be opposed to the names being re-sorted by letters or groups of letters (A, B, ... W-Z) rather than by occupation(s)? Because many of these people don't fit well into one category. — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 08:32, May 11, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A Rather Verbose Unsigned Comment

(By User:207.200.116.12 who has previously vandalized this page by REDIRECTing it to Anal Sex [5], Spamming it with POV rants and replacing certain surnames with "Fridman" [6], and added various patent nonsense [7] and whose views therefore might be best taken with a grain of salt due to bad-faith edits and borderline legal threats.)

(begin posting by User:207.200.116.12)

This excellent list was compiled by taking all the names from Jewhoo.com with virtually no other sources used-except for Jinfo.org Little if any original research was done.

TO EVERYONE WORKING ON THIS PAGE PLEASE REALIZE THAT THE WHOLESALE LOOTING BY DAVE FRIDMAN (Juko) AND OTHERS OF JEWHOO AND JINFO.ORG IS DESTRUCTIVE TO THOSE SITES. TO TAKE PART OF THE INFORMATION WOULD BE REASONABLE--BUT TO LIFT NAME AFTER NAME, MANY OBTAINED AFTER HARD RESEARCH, TO BE PUT ON A FREE ENCYCLOPEDIA WITH SUBSEQUENT DISTRIBUTION TO PROFIT MAKING MIRROR SITES IS DESTRUCTIVE. JEWHOO IS SUSPENDED AND JINFO WILL NOT ADD ANY NEW CATEGORIES. IF YOU WANT THESE SITES TO CONTINUE FOR YOUR EDIFICATION AND TO TAKE AN OCCASSIONAL NAME--THAT IS UP TO YOU.

PLEASE REALIZE THAT DAVE FRIDMAN--AKA JUKO--HAS EVEN GONE TO THE POINT OF WRITING LETTER AFTER LETTER TO THE EDITORS OF THESE SITES PRESSING THEM FOR SOURCES WITHOUT IDENTIFYING WHO HE IS AND WHAT HIS INTENT IS. A LARGE PART OF THE DRAW OF THESE SITES IS THERE--I DIDNT KNOW HE WAS JEWISH FACTOR. YOU ARE DESTROYING THAT. YOU HAVE A MORAL RESPONSIBILITY NOT TO DESTROY TWO GREAT RESOURCES FOR THE SAKE OF THIS CONDUIT TO SOMEBODY WHO SIMPLY MAKES MONEY WITH NO WORK---LIKE THE MIRROR SITES. THINK ABOUT IT.

THERE ARE TONS OF JEWISH WRITERS, FOR EXAMPLE, THAT ARE NOT LISTED ON WIKIPEDIA OR THE SITES ABOVE. BUT THAT WOULD APPARENTLY TAKE SOME WORK TO FIND. RATHER, THE PATTERN APPEARS TO BE IN THE AREA OF POPULAR CULTURE AND THE SCIENCES TO SIMPLY SIT BACK AND WAIT FOR JEWHOO AND JINFO TO DO THE WORK AND IMMEDIATELY APPROPRIATE THE VERFIED NAME.

And you are a coward if you take this posting down.

(end posting by User:207.200.116.12)

Thank you very much, O anonymous one, for finally directing your opinions to a Talk page rather than vandalizing the article. Hopefully we can reach a consensus here. — FREAK OF NUR_xTURE (TALK) 09:36, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

As I recall---the Vandals were a Germanic tribe who came in and destroyed. You will forgive me if I engaged in a little vandalism back just to see how it would go. I did not re-direct to anal sex. You have to look elsewhere for that Vandal. Had I known about the talk option I might have pursued it earlier.

Shall I send you a copy of "Juko's" e-mails to me asking me, without identifying his purpose, for my sources? Shall I send you copies of Juko's e-mail apologizing for the same? Not that he did so without prompting. What happened was that Juko had repeatedly been pumping the editor of Jinfo for detailed information on his sources--ie how he knew someone was Jewish. Letter after letter. The editor of Jinfo told me the name--it may not be accurate-- is Dave Fridman. Revelation! I got the same name on a letter pumping me for sources. I put two and two together and confronted Juko aka Fridman. To his credit, he owned up to this letter and apologized. So far as I know, he has not apologized to the JINFO editor.

Shall I tell you that the editor of Jinfo is a state of great depression about this turn of events? That hundreds of hours of research in libraries etc. are immediately appropriated and posted on Wikipedia. But that wasn't enough for Fridman--he had to put the knife in. Just to be sure on his sources he would write the editor of Jinfo for more explanation of sources. But somehow "Dave Fridman" cannot see that he is doing anything wrong. There is no moral ambiguity in his world.

Essentially he did the same thing to Jewhoo. He just took vast amounts of material from the site and re-posted on Wikipedia with hardly an external credit. When Jewhoo was not updated, he sought out the newspaper column that the editor of Jewhoo writes and when a new name was dropped--he popped off a letter--the one referred to above--for the source of the person's Jewishness. He may have pumped me in the past, but I have a new computer and do not have immediate access to e-mails much older than a few months. Besides, Juko may have had a different e-mail address in the past.

There are virtually no accurate names in the music, show business, arts, models, science, and many other Jewish categories that were not directly lifted from these two sites (probably seventy five percent of the total). As to the remainder, your previous inaccurate lists and visitor submissions were vetted using these sites. Granted, probably twenty percent of the actors/comedians are widely known as Jewish and some would be accurate no matter who was monitoring the lists.

Yes, I am the editor of Jewhoo. Three sites--Jewhoo, Jinfo, and the Nobel Prize library provided the bulk of the accurate Jewish biographical sites on the web with any extensive listings and these sites informally cooperated and did not poach each other. Virtual Jewish Library also has a lot of names. But does comparatively little original research on people--just bios on well known Jewish figures.

There is an e-mail record of Fridman's behavior and his admission. The editor of Jinfo, I am sure, can give you the text/dates of Fridman's letters and if you compare it to the dates Junko added material to Wikipedia--there will no doubt be a close correllation.

Essentially, what you are running in so many categories is a lift and paste operation. One in which others do the work and for whatever psychic thrill "you" get out of it, it goes up on Wikipedia and then to the mirror sites. The effect of which is to destroy your best sources because financially and every other tangible and intangible way---no one can in good conscience maintain a site under these circumstances.

Its funny how major sources like the Encyclopedia Judaica with thousands of names that are not in these listings are not used by Fridman and a few others. But that would require going to the library and consulting the hard copy or the CD Rom version. Rather, it is much easier to sit back and wait for two on-line sites to be updated and immediately appropriate the material.

Juko's answer is that he cannot see how this would hurt these sites---that Wikipedia is non-commercial (ignoring the ads plastering the mirror sites)---that valuable leads can be gained from names on Wikipedia not on Jewhoo or Jinfo. Well, let me tell you something---there is hardly anything on these lists that is new to me or to my friend at Jinfo---maybe a couple of names--easily outnumbered by the errors--which admittedly aren't that many since the source of the vast majority of the names are these two sites.

So who is the vandal here? Oh, yes, the Vandals didn't completely destroy if I recall my Roman history. They did cart off jewelry and some other objects. Fridman carts off names of Jews. Load 'em up Jewhoo--load em up JINFO---the fact that someone is Jewish is not copyrightable----so why I should I have any qualms about doing what I am doing?

You can write me via editor@Jewhoo.com

And here's a tip Dave and colleagues----musician Marvin Pontiac doesn't exist. His existence is a hoax. Must have been so proud to get just that one singer not from Jewhoo. Pontiac also appears on the black Jews category and others. It's not so easy when you actually have to do some research and look beyond one web source some visitor sends you, is it?

http://www.gobelle.com/p/articles/mi_m1285/is_7_30/ai_64702676

Actually, I see that somebody has caught that in the Wikipedia article on John Lurie, who created him. But he still appears on a bunch of famous Jews categories.

Trust me, if I could have figured out a way to put in a lot of inaccuracies on my site so Dave would post them on Wikipedia---I would. Because I know he just takes the information with very little vetting. But then I would be screwing the visitors to my site and vandalizing my work. Right?

You talk this state of affairs over with your fellow cyclops or whatever in the Jewish department at Wikipedia. If you want documentation of Fridman's correspondence--it can be provided.

nate

Nate is very pretentious. I believe to the degree that he was even offered a co-starring role in "The Life Aquatic".

Nate, though knowledgable about the many Jews out there still has a begging page up at Jewhoo and though there are many cheap servers out there, is refusing to put jewhoo back up. Good one, Nate. He is an insufferable egotist.

[edit] Should Mili Avital be here?

I was under the impression that Mili Avital is an Israeli citizen, who just works in the United States. If this is right, should she be in a list of Jewish Americans show business figures if she isn’t an American citizen? I have put the same argument in Talk:List of Jewish Americans.

Philip Stevens 18:08, 10 October 2005