Talk:List of Iranian women

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the List of Iranian women article.
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Contents

[edit] Accuracy is Vital

Please note that spreading the word about the achievments of the Iranian (female or male) should be done with utmost care so that accurate and valuable information is provided to those who want a better understanding of Iran and the Iranian. Inaccurate poorly-researched entries will only confuse an area which is already in almost total confusion.

Example:

"Royalty

Anahita, Goddess in Persian mythology.

Mithra, Persian Goddess of the sun"

This is clearly an example of zero research. Even though the name "Mitra," supposedly connected to Mithra/Mithras/Mehr, is nowadays (and perhaps wrongly) considered a female name, Mehr has never been a female figure in the Iranian pantheon. He has always been depicted as a young vigorous male. And a deity is surely not a member of any royal lineage, so Anahita's inclusion is yet another mistake.

[edit] A Request

Dear friends! Please add to this list only those figures who are very significant in their field:

  • Science: only directors, award winners and presidents
  • Poets: only award winners and those who invented a novel style
  • Artist: only pioneers and award winners (Do not include every minor actress or singer!)

[edit] Reworking the subtitles

  • I propose the subheadings be organised alphabetically, so not to demonstrate any partiality. Also why is Shirin Ebadi listed twice and in a section of her own, this adds bias to the article.


Christiane Amanpour] is half Persian, it's not even as if she even believes to be Iranian! So we should remove her ASAP

      • PLEASE NOTE: "Persian" signifies a "race." Not all Iranians are Persians (e.g., Jewish-Iranians, Arab-Iranians, Armenian-Iranians, etc. cannot be considered Persian). On the other hand, not all Persians are Iranian. That race has been a part of countries such as India for centuries.

Please change the title from "Persian" to "Iranian." Otherwise you are adding to historical misinformation.

This is a list of famous women of Persia and Iran (1935-now). Persian means all nationals of Persia (Iran before 1935) and Iranian means nationals of Iran.Sangak 13:18, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move

I think this should be moved to list of Iranian women, because not all Iranians are Persian. The Honorable Kermanshahi 14:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Notification

As WP:LIST is pretty big on references, I will soon remove any 'red link' members of this list who lack sources explicitly backing up their claim to fame. Please source an further additions. Thanks. The Behnam 19:54, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Done! Use sourced next time y'all. Thanks. The Behnam 05:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

I've noticed some image wars on this page. As there is no adequately objective way to determine who gets a picture and who doesn't, I'm going to remove all pictures unless some guiding principles are drawn up to prevent image wars without making it possible that this list degenerate into a gallery. The Behnam 05:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Which edit war?! There have been no edit war on the main image. They are all leading figures in their field. Sina Kardar 15:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
You edit warred with Matt57 over the inclusion of pictures of Parvin and Homa Darabi. I looked at the situation and determined that it wouldn't resolve because it was a purely subjective battle. We don't have an objective way to decide who is 'important' enough to have a picture on this page, so to prevent further edit wars over the images I think that it is best to have a "no images" policy on this list. Of course, the list itself seems quite subjective, but that is sort of why it is nominated for deletion, you know? The Behnam 18:39, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Oh, the "main image". There hasn't been an edit war on that yet but there just as easily could be, considering that it is just like several 'normal' images placed in one image. Won't you be mad if Matt comes along and tries to insert his Parvin Darabi into the main image? This is the same situation. It is completely subjective and is best avoided through a "no images" policy. The Behnam 19:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Categorization in Progress

I've managed to categorize down to Soodabeh Salem so far. It's slow going because of all the extraneous tagging that has been necessary - a good many of these articles need attention. Anyway, I'll pick up on this later. I expect it to take a few days. Sidatio 22:11, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Got as far as Ghashang Kamkar. I'll pick this up tomorrow. Sidatio 01:32, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Categorization is complete. Special thanks to Moonriddengirl for helping to categorize, and to BF for his learned discourse on this and other matters in regards to entries on this list. Sidatio 15:43, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Categorization of Catherine Bell

Yes, Ms. Bell has an Iranian mother, but does that make her Iranian in the sense of the other women on the list? My mother is Italian, but that doesn't make me Italian. I removed the Iranian categories and won't assign her any during this list's categorization project, but I won't remove her from the list here without a discussion on the topic first. Any thoughts? Sidatio 23:55, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

In categorizing the Indian women, I included people of Indian descent (even single parent), but not people who relocated from other countries to India. I followed the same practice in the categorization I've done on this list. --Moonriddengirl 15:59, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Still no consensus - that's bad!

I was hoping we'd find consensus on this list one way or another, but that doesn't seem to be the case. That means this list is still a viable candidate for deletion, and having seen the List of Indian women go the way of the dodo, there's a good chance the next time around will mean the end of this list.

Personally, I'm an "ounce of prevention" kind of person, so I think we should act quickly and implement the following:

  • Per Kappa's brilliant suggestion on the 2nd AfD, we should split this list up into smaller lists based on occupation.
  • Once that's finished, we should redirect this page to Lists of Iranian women.

The way I see it, this is a win-win; the list remains, and there's no argument for deletion because it's a list of other lists, much like List of Americans. Finally, efficiency is achieved without having to worry about the separate rules for categorizations (as well as the issues categorization carries, such as lack of visibility).

If there's no argument against or discussion of the matter in three days' time, I will begin implementing this solution. Work should begin quickly to avoid another AfD on the topic. Any thoughts? Sidatio 15:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Iranian non-men

We have a list of Iranians, we have this, but no list of Iranian men. Why exactly do we feel a need to create a list of non-men but not of men? For those who might be confused right now, go read other and think about whether this is really neutral or not.

Peter Isotalo 07:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Dear Peter, with all due respect, the argument put forward by you is prurient, similar to "why my sister can have a candy and I cannot!". It is time that men and women start seeing each other as fellow human beings, rather than as competitors in some race, which does not exist. If you believe that men should have their own pages, then please by all means go ahead and create pages for them. But please, do not complain that since men do not have pages of their own those of the women should be brought down. We, human beings, will be able to live side-by-side and constructively only by virtue of generosity, whether material or spiritual; "what I do not have should no one else have" does not signify a generous attitude, in my humble opinion. Incidentally, I do not wish to continue this discussion; I was just passing by, having fought hard for some ten days (and some ten days two months earlier) to keep the page of which this is the Talk page. With kind regards, --BF 09:15, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Hard effort is not an argument to keep anything and shooting the messenger doesn't solve the problem of othering. Not even when its in the form of idealistic rants. These kinds of lists (whether they be about non-men, non-whites or whatever) are dubious to begin with. Decrying criticism against them as mere childish tantrums doesn't make the arguments to keep them more convincing.

Peter Isotalo 13:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Peter, as mentioned earlier, I do not wish to enter into a discussion for which I have seriously no time. I note however your very peculiar vocabulary which seems to be very limited in scope: you refer to women as "non-men" and to coloured people as "non-white", not to mention that you have apparently the audacity to refer to my above remarks as "rants". I hope this is not the type of language that they taught you at school, since it is highly offensive all what you parade in a short space of few sentences; the word "non-man" is the synonym for "Untermensch", to name but one example. You may wish to read some history books which may help you to climb down from your Olympian heights; not before the end of the WWII were women awarded an academic degree by the mighty University of Cambridge, and it is barely 13 years since black people in South Africa can enjoy their full rights as citizens of South Africa. There are plenty of history books which document the crimes committed, and are still being committed, by White Men against what you call "non-men" and "non-whites". For gaining some insight into the nature of your adopted vocabulary, you may also wish to read "Beyond Good and Evil" by Nietzsche. Wish you good luck. --BF 20:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC)