Talk:List of IRA Chiefs of Staff

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What are the sources for this list? --Ryano 14:09, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This list has been compiled from many reputable sources, which I'll provide shortly.

--Damac 21:23, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Gentle reminder to Damac to cite sources. Ferg2k 07:39, 12 August 2005 (UTC)

On holidays at the moment, will provide sources once I'm back.--Damac 05:05, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Reminding Damac almost three months have passed since he said he'd cite his many reputable sources. Ferg2k 00:50, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
I removed two of the cited sources from this list as the source is disputed, as Ruairí Ó Brádaigh denies that he said that in the interview with Vincent Browne, and sent wrote a open letter to the magazine to that effect, that Browne had mis-quoted him out of context.--Padraig3uk 13:38, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Blue highlights?

What are the blue highlights for? --Mal 11:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Sean Cronin

Anyone got a source on his leadership dates? Arkbar 06:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

There is mention of it here but no dates.--Vintagekits 12:21, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tomás Óg Mac Curtain

I always understood that Tomás Mac Curtain (son of the murdered Lord Mayor of Cork) had served for a period as Chief of Staff in the late 1930s). Why isn't he on this list?Coolavokig 14:49, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard that, but I could be wrong. I know he was O/C in the Curragh on a few occasions. I'll check my sources again to see. Any chance you might be able to help out in filling out the list of Official IRA chiefs of staff?--Damac 13:39, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent edits re Gerry Adams

Would editors with a conflict of interest desist in their politically motivated whitewashing. Thanks. One Night In Hackney303 19:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The issue is not with a conflict of interest, but with properly adhering to our policy on biographies of living persons (the link to this policy can be accessed at WP:BLP). It's never been proven that Adams has ever been a member of the IRA, let alone the head of the Army Council. These historians just *think* he was, largely based on sketchy "evidence" propagated by the British government during the dirty war. He's denied this repeatedly, and this should be made clear. gaillimhConas tá tú? 20:06, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Well make it clear. The information is fully sourced in compliance with policy. The issue is very much a conflict of interest, I'm sure Wikipedia, you and the political party you are a member of wouldn't want a repeat of the Vatican incident. One Night In Hackney303 20:09, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Haha, mate I've tried to make it clear. I didn't "whitewash" Adams from this list - I am simply highlighting the fact that he's denied this claim repeatedly when he would have no reason for doing so (it certainly wouldn't have hurt his political career - just look at Martin McGuinness). If you would like to tweak the article to reflect this, as you don't appear to think my efforts are appropriate, please do. I'd love to reach a compromise here where Adams is still mentioned, but it's made clear the sketchy issues surrounding this claim gaillimhConas tá tú? 20:14, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
You'll note the article says "who are reported to have served" (emphasis added). Has he been reported to have served as CoS? Yes, emphatically. Has he been CoS? Not relevant, given the way the article is phrased. Any "making clear" should be done without moving Adams to anywhere less prominent. One Night In Hackney303 20:18, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
It is completely relevant! The article is called "List of IRA Chiefs of Staff" for goodness sakes, not "List of people who have been named IRA Chiefs of Staff by historians with no direct knowledge of the IRA and have been called libellous by Adams himself" hehe.  :) I thought I was actually making it more prominent by singling out Adams and giving him a full paragraph at the end, there. Maybe we should try some sort of third party dispute resolution thing. Not to say that we're in a dispute (more of a conversation, if anything), but it might be unlikely that we can compromise given that I think that his not being on the Army Council (CoS, etc.) is extremely relevant and that I thought I actually made Adams' presence in this article more prominent, while you feel it's "whitewashing." gaillimhConas tá tú? 23:01, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
No direct knowledge of the IRA? Peer-reviewed, award winning journalists that have no knowledge of the IRA? How about a direct quote about Adams' IRA membership (which he denies) from someone who obviously has plenty of knowledge of the IRA - Seán Mac Stíofáin? [1]
  • NARRATOR: The IRA delegation to the talks would include the young Martin McGuiness, the commander of the IRA in Derry. Another young member of the delegation would be Gerry Adams. Adams was allegedly the commander of an IRA battalion in Belfast and had been jailed under the internment policy.
  • PETER TAYLOR: All were IRA?
  • SEAN MacSTIOFAIN: Yes, not Sinn Fein but IRA.
  • PETER TAYLOR: All of them.
  • SEAN MacSTIOFAIN: Yes.
  • PETER TAYLOR: Including Martin McGuiness?
  • SEAN MacSTIOFAIN: Oh, yes.
  • PETER TAYLOR: Including Gerry Adams?
  • SEAN MacSTIOFAIN: Well, all. All of them.
Obviously that puts Adams' denial in a rather different context doesn't it? If his whole membership of the IRA (which is reported by practically every source) is based on a British propaganda war, why is Mac Stíofáin saying he was a member? One Night In Hackney303 07:16, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
No idea why Mac Stíofáin made those comments; I'm not about to speculate, and I never knew the fellow personally. Back to the topic at hand, we certainly need to reach a compromise on how to mention Adams' non-status. The present version just won't do, and since you didn't feel my efforts were spot-on, perhaps you might tweak the article to clearly reflect Adams' denial. Again, I'm more than willing to compromise, but please meet me part way here mate. Cheers gaillimhConas tá tú? 01:44, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I fully support One Night In Hackney here. We have a former IRA C/S saying that Adams was in the IRA; we know that Adams took part in IRA talks with the British government when he held no position of any importance in SF; we have authoratative accounts from journalist/analyists who have followed the Troubles for over 30 years state beyond any doubt that Adams served as C/S. The footnote states that Adams denies this aspect of his past. As for his charge that these claims are libellous, well there's only one way for him to prove that. But he has failed, and for obvious reasons in my opinion, to pursue this charge in court.--Damac 07:45, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I've nothing against the footnote claim being moved to a more prominent position, even say in a "Notes" section of its own so it's not buried away. If anyone wants to do that feel free, or I might do it myself later. One Night In Hackney303 08:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Alright, cool beans. I've made an edit (feel free to revert it if you feel that we haven't, in fact, compromised as yet). I've kept Adams on the list and used small text to prompt the reader to see the note at the bottom of the table. In the table, I start by noting that several scholars have named Adams to be part of IRA leadership at one point or another, and conclude with Adams' staunch and long-standing denial. Cheers gaillimhConas tá tú? 03:50, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Works for me. I made a slight change as the previous wording was slightly ambiguous. If you include the AC in "IRA leadership" then you're looking at 15-20 years (allegedly!) as part of the IRA leadership. One Night In Hackney303 05:29, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Looks good! I'm glad that, as per usual, we were able to reach an amicable compromise. Cheers gaillimhConas tá tú? 05:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Well, it's great to see that his name hasn't been removed from the list, where it belongs.
The addition of a note has, however, affected the headings for the OIRA and CIRA C/S. Although marked as headings, they don't show as such in the article.--Damac 08:47, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Fixed. One Night In Hackney303 08:52, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 09:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)