Talk:List of Hungarian Jews

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[edit] Actress, not Actor

This list has female actresses listed as actors. Someone correct this. 205.174.22.28 04:42, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Steven Brust

Unless someone can confirm that Steven Brust is Jewish, I'm removing him (especially given all the Christian Mythology in 'To Reign In Hell') -Udzu 09:30, 29 Jul 2004 (UTC)



[edit] Péter Nádas

Can anyone please confirm if the acclaimed contemporary writer Péter Nádas is of Jewish descent? This certainly appears to be so from apparently autobiographic elements in his novel: 'A Family Story'. --RCSB 30 April 2005

[edit] In the List? Is he Jewish? - "unconfirmed"-people, etc

please answer or add to the list

  • THE FOLLOWING ARE HUNGARIAN JEWS; PLEASE ADD: Imre Kalman, the greatest operetta composer [1], Gene Simmons (of KISS fame) and Congressman Tom Lantos (D-CA) Yaeliron 22:29, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
-- Jewish.[2] Did you know he was likely Bobby Fisher's father? Should we add Bobby Fisher? Both parents were Jewish, though only the Father was Hungarian. He also became a noted anti-semite.
-- Born Jewish but converted [3]
-- Born Jewish, converted, became Anglican missionary [5]
-- Parents Jewish, born Jewish, but baptised Roman-Catholic as a baby. [6]
--So it appears [7]
--Sheynhertz-Unbayg 09:22, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Ignaz Semmelweiss was not a Jew. See [9] --Maxn 02:45, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
really? thanks --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 12:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
Yes, well, the citation is somewhat equivocal, given the diametrically opposed positions that Horton and Nuland take on the subject. However, Nuland did write the biography and presumably carried out more extensive research than did Horton, the reviewer. Also, I haven't found any other credible citation showing that Semmelweis was a Jew. (Yes, a Hungarian named Ignaz + a German last name would seem to make a good candidate... but not in this case, it would appear.) --Maxn 19:06, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jewish Encyclopedia articles

See also

category:Hungarian Jews
from category 08:28, 30 December 2005, IZAK

B Bettelheim family Alexander de Erény Ullmann Meir Friedmann Jakob Guttmann (sculptor) Angelo Heilprin Joseph Hirsch Weiss Ilona Eibenschütz Rudolf Kasztner Isidor Kaufman Oskar Kaufmann Wilhelm Klein Leo Lánczy Samuel Lasz Philip László Abraham Lederer William Leidesdorff David Leimdörfer Cornel Lichtenberg Ludwig Lichtenstein Hillel Lichtenstein Samuel Lipschütz Benjamin Wolf Löw Leopold Löw Moritz Löw Johann Jacob Löwenthal Solomon Löwisohn Moriz Ludassy (Gans) Joseph Manes Österreicher Mel Mermelstein Abraham Chayyim Oppenheim Leopold Óváry Béla Schick Adolf von Sonnenthal Robert Tábori Aaron Tänzer Eduard Telcs Leopold Teller Paul Tenczer Alexandre Trauner Edmund Tull Pál Turán Shalom Ullmann Joachim Jacob Unger Ármin Vámbéry Wilhelm Vázsonyi Leo Veigelsberg Ludwig Venetianer Joseph Vészi Soma Visontai Moritz Wahrmann Judah Wahrmann Ignaz Wecheselmann Markus Nissa Weiss Max Weiss Berthold Weisz Solomon Aaron Wertheimer Solomon Winter Aaron Wise Leopold Wittelschöfer Franz Wittmann Philip Wodianer Theodore Wolfner Ludwig Wysber George Zappert Gustav Zerffi Ignaz Ziegler Anton Zilzer Maier Zipser


Paul Czinner Johann Löwenthal Jenő Hubay Henry Taub

[edit] Jewish?


"Budapest school"* people
Ágnes Heller, György Márkus, Mária Márkus, Ferenc Fehér, Mihály Vajda, István Mészáros, György Bence, János Kis...
from http://www.freepress-freespeech.com/holhome/poncins/jewqm1.htm
and, http://www.freepress-freespeech.com/holhome/tormay/orszagh0.htm : http://free.x3.hu/tarogato/keresztmagy.html: http://suttogo.nspage.com/konyv.php?x=orszaghoditok3 : http://betiltva.com/files/kolosvary-borcsa_mihaly_zskerdes_irodalma.pdf : (but righteous sites?)

Junzi (Kohn) - Oszkár Jászi / hu:Jászi Oszkár - Zoltán Dénes (Diener) / hu:Dénes Zoltán - Péter Ágoston (Augstein) / hu:Ágoston Péter - Tibor Szamuely / hu:Szamuely Tibor - Sándor Garbai / hu:Garbai Sándor - József Pogány (Schwartz) / hu:Pogány József - Béla Varga (Weiss) / hu:Varga Béla - Rónai (Rosenstengel) / hu: - Varga (Weichzelbaum) / hu: - Vince (Weinstein) / hu: - Móric Erdélyi (Eisenstein) / hu:Erdélyi Móric - Dezső Biró (Bienenstock) / hu:Biró Dezső - Zsigmond Kunfi (Kunstatter) / hu:Kunfi Zsigmond - Alpári / hu: - Tibor Szamuelly / hu: -

(German people)

Haase / hu: - Landeberg / hu: - Hertzfeld / hu: - Schiffer / hu: - Simm / hu: - Hirsch / hu: - Max Lowenberg / *Max Löwenberg de:Max Löwenberg - Dr. Kurt Rosenfeld / hu: - Caspar Wollheim / hu: - Karl Arnold / hu: - Kranold / de: - Rosenhek / de: - Birenbaum / de: - Reis / de: - Kaiser / de: -

Hungarian

Eszter Solymosi / hu:Solymosi Eszter - Győző Istóczy / hu:Istóczy Győző - Gyula Verhovay / hu:Verhovay Gyula - Ede Egán / hu:Egán Ede - Gyula Szekfű ? / hu:Szekfű Gyula - Móric Saphir / hu:Saphir Móric - Samuel Rosenthal / hu:Rosenthal Samuel - Zsigmond Saphir / hu:Saphir Zsigmond - Hermann Klein / hu:Klein Hermann - Károly Beck / hu:Beck Károly - Vilmos Beck / hu:Beck Vilmos - Viktor Kornfeld / hu:Kornfeld Viktor - Adolf Dux / hu:Dux Adolf - Miksa Falk / hu:Falk Miksa - Adolf Neustadt / hu:Neustadt Adolf - Lipót Kompert / hu:Kompert Lipót - (Leopold Kompert?) Ignác Einhorn / hu:Einhorn Ignác - Gusztáv Zerffi(Hirsch) / hu:Zerffi Gusztáv - Tibor Samuely/Tibor Samuelly / hu:Samuelly Tibor - Pál Kéri / hu:Kéri Pál - Ferenc Göndör (Náthán Krausz) / hu:Göndör Ferenc - Mór Ludassy(Ganz) / hu:Ludassy Mór - Leó Veigelsberg / hu:Veigelsberg Leó - Zsigmond Bródy(Braun) / hu:Bródy Zsigmond - Manó Kónyi / hu:Kónyi Manó - Ignác Halfy / hu:Halfy Ignác - Miksa Falk / hu:Falk Miksa - Mihály Kolosváry Borcsa / hu:Kolosváry Borcsa Mihály - Zoltán Bosnyák / hu:Bosnyák Zoltán - Béla Wenckheim / hu:Wenckheim Béla - József Dégenfeld / hu:Dégenfeld József - Ferenc Korniss / hu:Korniss Ferenc -

[edit] Merge with Eastern European Jews

  • It doesn't make much sense to have the Czech and Ukrainian Jews on a list together and not have the Hungarian Jews on the same list (as the Jews in those countries were much more numerous than in Hungary). So, I propose a merge to cut down on the lists and make everything more organized.(anon)
どはに
どはに
    • Mmm. Hungarian Jewish community (Unger) has it's world. like Litvak.(Sheynhertz)
There are more jews that lived in Ukraine than Hungary but you don't see a separate page for them. These extra pages are nothing more than fluff as Hungary is as applicable to East Europe as any of the others on that list.(anon)
Hungary is not an Eastern European country, so why should Hungarian Jews be put on a list of Eastern European Jews? The Czech Republic and its predecessor Czechoslovakia are/were not Eastern European countries either. If this list is to be combined with any other, perhaps combine the Hungarian, Czech, Slovene and Austrian Jews on a "List of Central European Jews".(anon)
Question of size - this list looks big enough to be viable on its own. - Newport 18:43, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
I searched "Hungary" on Jewish Encyclopedia. --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 08:16, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
[17]
I disagree! The Jews of Hungary were a unique community, greatly assimilated and intertwined with general Hungarian culture and history. The history of Hungary without its Jews is incomplete in a qualitatively different way than the history of Poland would be without the history of Polish Jews. From some historical point onward (I do not know which it was), the Jews in Hungary ceased to be seperate from the general populace. This cannot be said of Jews in any other part of Eastern Europe. Hungarian Jews were closer to their fellow countrymen than they were to the shtetl Jews of Eastern Europe. They contributed mightily to Hungarian arts, science and politics. In fact, nearly every famous Hungarian personality, whether it be in mathematics (von Neumann, Erdos), chess (Polgar sisters), music (Mahler, Gyorgy Ligetti) literature (Kertesz, Nadas?) and so on, has had Jewish origins. These facts cannot be discounted. Hands off Hungarian Jews! Do not attempt to rewrite history and force them into the xenophobic club they havn't been interested in for generations. RCSB 20:57, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] George Olah

Jinfo fails to provide a source for Olah, in fact, there is much "assuming" as the following is said about him:

"He states "I do not want to relive here in any detail some of my very difficult, even horrifying, experiences of this period, hiding out the last months of the war in Budapest. Suffice it to say that my parents and I survived." That statement is the closest he comes to identifying himself as being Jewish. Nearly everything in the book is consistent with an upper middle class Hungarian Jewish background, with the exception of his attendance at the Gymnasium of the Piarist Fathers, a Roman Catholic teaching order."

As it is obvious we are dealing with assumptions here, it is safe to say Olah should not be listed on this page nor have categories attached to him based solely on assumptions. 70.146.15.71 18:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Sandor Ferensczi also lacks a source on Jinfo. Unless another can be found, the default is to remove. 70.146.15.71 18:22, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

On Olah, jinfo gives a source that says very clearly that he was Jewish: "Yet for months thereafter our Jewish classmates could still attend our Catholic high school and, after the interruptions of the 1944-45 winter, graduated there. (One of them, Mr. George Olah, now an American citizen, just received the Nobel prize a few years ago and went back to visit his old school with pride.)" And "While Freud would regularly confirm to his Jewish colleagues like Karl Abraham and Sándor Ferenczi" [18] (Needs a subscription, but the relevant words are visible on a Google search.)--Newport 21:24, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Why do we need another source for Ferenczi? jinfo is a good enough source by itself. If it gave a source, people could argue that that source did not have a source, and we'd get into an infinite regression! --20.138.246.89 13:38, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Gabors

Wikipedia works by WP:V and WP:NOR. We report what reliable sources say. In the case of Eva and Zsz Zsa Gabor, the Israel News Agency says that they are Jewish, so we report that. Nobody is saying that they aren't Catholic as well; if a reliable source says that they are Catholic, they can go in a list of Hungarian Catholics as well. To assert that they are not Jewish because their father wasn't, or because they or some relative practise another religion, clearly breaches WP:NOR. It can equally be argued that because their mother was Jewish, they are undoubtedly Jewish in orthodox Jewish law, but I am not relying on that. --Brownlee 20:35, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Clean up?

I have no objections to tidying up the list by re-arrangement and the addition of extra categories. I have the strongest objection to the removal of undoubted Hungarian Jews, even rabbis.--20.138.246.89 11:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I ask again, why are you reverting? What "undoubted Jews" are permanently removed from this list as you claim? Once again, the only name to be removed is Albert Ehrenstein as he was born and lived in the Austrian Empire and is an Austrian. [19]. You cannot revert a users edit without good reason, because otherwise it comes off as a personal attack. You also cannot remove [citation needed]s without first finding a source. 72.144.139.35 04:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All new additions without articles need sources

Also to any further contributions, before adding names to this list that do not explicitly state in their wikipedia articles that the person is Jewish or Hungarian, you need a source per the following established note:

<--When adding names to the list, please include a reliable source that explicitly describes the person added as "Jewish" or "Hungarian Jewish" (or a source where the person describes themselves as such) - not their father, mother, etc., in accordance with the Wikipedia:No Original Research policy.-->

Thanks. 72.144.139.35 05:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:reliable sources "The responsibility for finding and adding references lies with the person adding material to an article, and sources should be provided whenever possible." 72.144.139.35 05:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reach consensus before making changes

I have reverted changes by 72.144.139.35. I understand there's a disagreement as to who should or should not be on this list. Please build consensus before making changes, as is required by Wikipedia policy, see WP:CON. Thank you. -- Steve Hart 03:17, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Steve Hart. Observing the changes implemented, it can be seen that no names were removed from the previous version except Albert Ehrenstein who was an Austrian, not Hungarian per given references above. Furthermore it has recently been established that one cannot add or subtract names from a list without references or (in the case of subtraction) lack-of references. Otherwise, clean-up and organization can be implemented per WP:BOLD. If there is a dispute over the addition of substraction of a name, please revert to a version before the change in question rather than a whole-sale revert. Also, for future reference, when asking for a NPOV consensus, a moderator typically should revert to a version that was not edited by either of the users in the conflict. Thanks. 72.144.68.74 16:31, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi. There's a broader discussion at Talk:List of German Jews, I'm replying over there -- Steve Hart 19:23, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources Dispute

There is a citation for Bela's mother being a non-Jewish German. His first language was even German, so this has significance. If Encyclopedia Judaica say's that Bela's mother was Jewish as well, please "quote" that sentence and use it as a source for removing the statement about his father being Jewish. In which case, we will need to find a third source indicating which is the truth. Anything else can easily be interpreted as a violation of WP:CITE. Numerous figures who are only partially Jewish in origin have articles in Encyclopedia Judaica. This makes absolutely no conflict with the previous edit. 141.213.211.81 10:44, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Someone is Jewish if a reputable source says they are Jewish and no reputable source says explicitly that they are not. Anything else violates WP:NOR. In particular, the languages they can speak are irrelevant to whether they are Jewish. As 141.213.211.84 well knows, the fact that Encyclopedia Judaica includes an article on someone is an explicit statement by its editors that they regard the person as Jewish; no further citation is needed.--20.138.246.89 11:17, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
The source says only his father was Jewish explicitly. Haven't you lectured on how it is wrong to not note was a source says? So Encyclopedia Judaica does not include articles of people who are partial in Jewish origin? This is an ethnicity list, not simply a cultural or religious identity list (we don't even know if Bela was religiously or culturally Jewish). 141.213.211.81 11:41, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

George Soros' father is mentioned twice on the list: once as Tivadar Soros, writer, once as Teodoro (??) Schwartz, businessman - pls cancel one of the two (Auguste, Hungarian Wiki)

Done; well spotted.--Runcorn 22:38, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brassai

We have two good references that say explicitly that Brassai was Jewish:

  • [20] "we find Jews making significant contributions ... Gyula Halasz as Brassai"
  • [21] "Three of the greatest photographers of the 20th century, Andre Kertesz, Robert Capa and Brassai, were Hungarian Jews"
    --Runcorn 22:35, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
The former does not state explicitly that Brassai is Jewish, though natural sentence flow would suggest it to be the case. These are not separate sources. I e-mailed the author of the latter and asked if he has a source for his statements. He directed me to a link of the former who, in turn, response to that comment was that "he heard this information from friends." Feel free to do the same if there is doubt. WP:RS is an important policy to follow closely here. Are the authors of these two articles better experts on Brassai than his memoirs (Brassai: Letters to My Parents) and this biography? (Halász Gyula: A századik év küszöbén. Bukarest, 1967)
Also it is important to note that every one of his biographies mention his mother as an Armenian, not Hungarian nor Hungarian-Jewish. 141.213.55.112 18:59, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Comments? 141.213.55.112 18:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Found my way here via WP:3O. Hm... tricky. To be fair, while a person should probably be considered an expert on their own heritage, they're not necessarily neutral about it -- though the same could be true about the two columnists mentioned above. I would say that both sources linked make a clear point that Brassai is Jewish, but only one of them seems to pin him down specifically as Hungarian.
While your email communication with the author of the second article is a concern, that seems to be venturing into an area of original research that gives me pause. Generally, I think, the idea is to report what others have already said and published, assuming that reliable sources are, well, reliable.
But, as you mentioned, neither his memoir nor the biography mention his being Hungarian-Jewish. i haven't read either of these, but I'm inclined to take your word for it. From the look of things, most of the letters in Brassai's memoir were written and sent during the 1920s and 1930s? If so, I'm inclined to think that a Jew in Europe would have been likely to keep tight-lipped about that, during that time period.
My impression at this point is that we can probably pin him down as being Jewish. I'm less sure about whether we could safely say he's Hungarian. Luna Santin 19:41, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

One source, a not terribly good one, states he is Jewish. Two excellent sources state he is not. The second source does not state he is Jewish, but merely remarks that his name sounds Jewish, hardly a RS. This is insufficient for a self-proclaimed Christian who mentions in letters and memoirs that he is Christian, and mentions celebrating Christmas. KillerChihuahua?!? 22:31, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gyula Halász

Istvan Remenyi Gyenes wrote that Gyula Halász was Jewish because they said he was another non-Magyar emigrant photographer. This was a mention of his Armenian background and not any Jewish. Gyenes said that Gyula Halász was mentioned in the Magyar Jewish Lexikon. This was another Gyula Halász, one born in a dozen years before Gyula Halasz, Brassai. I put the statement in the edit summary box and have removed him from this page. Here is the page with the other Gyula Halász http://mek.oszk.hu/04000/04093/html/0348.html

This is original research. We have a reliable source that Brassai was Jewish, and Wikipedia goes by what reliable sources say.--20.138.246.89 12:44, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I changed your edits because you are mistaken. Gyula Halász, Brassai, is not the same Gyula Halász of Istvan Gyenes, and there is a statement from the Magyar Zsido Lexikon revising the error which I had placed in the edit summary. I wish you would pay greater attention in the future. Also, if you do not read Hungarian you can read either Gyula Halász's Letters to Parents or Roger Grenier's biography of Gyula Halász. I believe they should confirm this for you. Here is also a link http://mek.oszk.hu/04000/04093/html/0348.html for you to sift through the lexikon and see for yourself. It is also true that you may notice comments on the journalist article that point out the mistake. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.92.18.12 (talk) 14:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC).