Talk:List of Greek-Americans/Archive1

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Title

Would be it be a good idea if I moved this page to "List of Americans of Greek descent"? This is because of the recent debates as to who can be classified as a "something American", i.e. listing people of part or distant Greek ancestry, like Jamie-Lynn Sigler. I recently did the same to List of Americans of Irish descent and I think eventually all the ethnicity pages should move to similar titles. It would allow for more logical listing of people who aren't 100% something or don't necessarily consider themselves "something-American". Mad Jack O'Lantern 19:35, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

  • I'm not sure I agree with that. We have a Greek American article that defines what that term means (they don't have to be 100%), and this is a list of those people. --JW1805 (Talk) 02:29, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
    • Well the Greek-American article says a Greek-American is a person of "significant Greek heritage". But what is significant? Mad Jack O'Lantern 02:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
      • As someone once said: it may not be easy to define but "I know it when I see it". --JW1805 (Talk) 05:21, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
The term Greek American organizations use now is "of Greek descent"71.252.57.206 07:24, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Sources

The following people need sources (reliable sources, i.e. not the IMDB or other junky trivia sites) that actually describe them as "Greek" or "Greek-American", not "Greek/Welsh/German father", "Greek ancestry" or whatever. See similar thing done in every ethnicity-American list, in an attempt to bring these lists under Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Verifiability policies. And if anyone has the time, please source the people still on the list to sources that describe them as actually "Greek American" or "Greek", if they are also "American" (so no "Greek grandmother" or whatever)

Says who? This list from when I remember being an editor back in 2005 was for Americans of Greek ancestry. When has that changed that is specifically only for 100% Greeks? You do realize that at the top of the Greek American article where it says that the State Department in 2005 estimated that 3,000,000 Americans residents in the United States claim Greek descent[1], they meant alot of those "Part Greeks" which you are trying to exclude from this article. Also when was the discussion on this to be changed as such? When an individual specifically states themselves that they are of Greek origins, they should make the list. They are making the statement for a reason which means they do identify themselves with that ancestry. Plus its fun to come on this list and see who is of Greek ancestery.Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006


No, she I agree should not be on the list. She, although Greek, has acted on some American movies and series but I do not believe she is an American citizen. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
Not really, her agree with too. Her mother is American, so she can be categorized under Mexican-Americans but not here. This one I agree with too. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
Yes, both sets of his grandparents, paternal and maternal, were Greek Jews who came from Thessaloniki; "-- a well-known actor ("Along Came Polly," "The Simpsons," "Friends"), he is the son of Greek Jews Ladino-speaking parents." Source:Detroit Jewish News: 8/14/04 | Nate Bloom,[2] that's a Jewish newspaper, FYI. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
I'll have to look up the source but I remember reading he is half Greek on paternal side. His late aunt, his mother's sister, was hard of hearing, she was an aluminia of Gallaudet University for the deaf and heard of hearing. That's were she met and later married her husband Thomas A. Mayes. I'll see if I still have the article from which I took all my info to write up his wiki biographical. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
Yes, she is of Romaniotes descent on both side of her parents, which she make refrence to in numerious interviews and media outlets, including to our California based Jewish newsman above Nate Bloom who writes regularly about Jewish celebrities, including person biographical info. Her last name, Carteris, is a Romaniote Greek Jewish name. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
She states herself that she is Greek in every interview and media outlet I have watched. I should know, since I'm a huge fan of hers and as well the person who created her wiki biographical article. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
Yup, it will be kind of hard to have me say his "Greek" since he is dead but its a well known fact with in the jazz community and he did make mention of it. Gaillard was 50% Greek and 50% Afro-Cuban and Jan Gaye, Gaillard's daughter, a quadroon, does state as such. She also regularly mentions the fact that she is on her mom's side Irish and her father is half greek and half afro-cuba. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
Not sure I thought so but I could be wrong. I'll have to research this one more. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
Honorable mention since she states that she is of Greek origins American Medical Association & Newsmax.com articles. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
Yes, sister of Tommy Lee she half Greek, both she and her brother were born in Athens, Greece to a Greek beauty queen and a Welsh soldier, the family has by now been natrualized as US citizens. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
  • Bill Koutsouros - of the ANIMUS
Philadelphia native born to Greek parents, he uses his Greek ethnic background to influence his musical band, which with the other band members its a blend of Greek, Middle Eastern, Spanish, Funk, Latin and Jewish music. His wiki bio also has to written up, I just haven't had the time yet. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
His dead so its kind of hard for him to say anything. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
Yup again, Italian mother and Greek father. was born ... to an Italian mother and a Greek father....I am now studying at the University of Miami majoring in English Literature with a minor in Classical Antiquity (the study of ancient Rome and Greece)....Favorite movies range from such films as "Zorba The Greek", "Il Postino", "English Patient", "The Talented Mr. Ripley". http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:AIT_QYD8-PIJ:www.bbpics.com/petermaneos/+Peter+Maneos+born&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
Yup, she is Greek on her father's side and Irish-Puerto-Rican on mother's. As she says on her offical site: Julia Migenes was born on the Lower East Side of New York into a family made up of a passionate mixture of Greek and Irish-Puerto-Rican descent. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
  • Sofia Milos - needs a source that she is an American citizen, beside everything else
I have not clue I have to look into this one, probably not tonite 'cause I don't have the time but definite I'm going to research this. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006
Her mother is Greek, and her father is Italian. Michael 20:22, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
We know. But is she American? Mad Jack 20:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
By the way, this seems [3] like a good source for listing her as a Greek "anything". Mad Jack 20:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
This one too but not tonite. Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006

I'll have to do the rest later. Sorry.  ;) Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006

Ok I'm back. Sorry about that Mad Jack, I couldn't finish them all last Friday, so here is the rest.  ;) ~Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006
  • Liz Ryder - musician
Yup, Liz Ryder was born in LA in 1981 to a Greek-American mother and an English/Welsh father.From The Official Liz Ryder Site ~Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006
Yup, related to Chris above. Jimmy was brother of Penelope Spheeris and cousin(paternal) of Chris Spheeris and cousin(maternal) of Costa Gavras. His dead but according to his sister's quote:"As I may have said before, a first cousin of mine is Costa Gavras, the world renown Greek/French director, which would makes me consider that there is something to the genetic aspects to the job description. ~Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006
  • Tiffani Thiessen, actress:"I'm a mutt. I have so much of everything in me, and half of it I don't even know. German on one side; Greek, Turkish and Welsh on the other. My mom is very olive-skinned; I get my blue eyes from my dad."[4]
Yes, she describes her "olive skin" in refrence to who she is, as she says its her "Greek/Turkish" origins that she attributes her looks and since she says her Greek/Turkish mother and grandmother are her role models then more then likely she values where they come from: ["I love sitting by the pool once in a while. I have olive skin and I don't burn easily. ... I'm a mutt. I have so much of everything in me, and half of it I don't even know. German on one side; Greek, Turkish and Welsh on the other. My mom is very olive-skinned; I get my blue eyes from my dad."In Style Magazine, Nov 1998 p261(1) Tiffani-Amber Thiessen--Star of Beverly Hills 90210 Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006
Yup, read her biographical "Diane: A Signature Life, which she talks about her life. Another source on line is Jewish News Weekly ~ Her book hides neither the angels nor the skeletons. The daughter of a Russian-born father who spent the war in Switzerland and a Greek-born mother... ~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006
Yup, his father was a Greek-Lebanese and and his mother an Italian-French. [5] ~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006

Mad Jack 17:51, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Who makes it in the list?

Since some do not agree that an American with "W, X, Y, Z" ancestry is not categorized correctly under Greek-Americans, how 'bout they are categorized under Americans of Greek Ancestry since I believe these are interesting tibit-facts for any Cliff Clavin's out there. ;)~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006

Which do you propose being the specific limit under which people will be removed from "X-Americans" and enter under "Americans of X ancestry"? :NikoSilver: 21:24, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I say any American who has more then two ancestries, as it is being tried to imply here, that they supposedly are not categorized correctly as "Greek-American". My suggestion is people like Tiffani Thiessen and Jenascia Chakos who some keeps harping as having "WXYZ" ancestry and can't be labeled in each and everyone. Sorry but anyone like John Varvatos who is SO obviously Greek and Italian should be able to be labeled as Greek-American since both his parents are 100% Greek and Italian respectively, for anyone who follows the fashion world would know so, since even wiki acknowledges that "Finding a good source may require some effort: Until more authors publish online, and more material is uploaded, some of the most reliable and informative sources are still available only in printed form. If you can't find a good source on the web, try a local library or bookstore. This can at times be a surprisingly fruitful endeavour."[6] Although NOW we are told that even those legit sources found on the internet which claim them to Greek, even when those sources are from their own mouths, are not Good Enough to label them Greek-American...go figure. ;)~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006


As for Jessica Chakos, being "PART GREEK" doesn't mean she is a Greek-American. She seems to have quite a lot of ethnicities in her. If you want to include her, please find a source that says she is "Greek-American" or just "Greek" (since we know she is American). Same as for the people above Mad Jack 17:52, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm going to copy here what I wrote on your talk page: She does not say "everything else" like you like to put words in her mouth, she specifically said: Greek, Cherokee Indian, English and possibly Irish and German. The "something else" or "possibly else" is in refrence to the German and Irish, NOT the Greek. The Question was: "You are very exotic, what are your nationalities?" HER reply "My father is Filipino. He came over to the U.S. with his family when he was 17. My mother is Greek, Cherokee Indian, English and possibly Irish and German. There's some dispute." AND in this reply: "Hey, J! What's your ethnic background?" Her reply "I am half Filipino; the other half is a mixture of Greek, English, Indian, Irish and German." So guess what, she is describing herself as such not only as nationalities BUT ethnically. So yes she does call herself part Greek, unless you think the "other half" she is refering to is her imaginary twin. If she did not consider herself the ethnicities she mentions, not in ones BUT in every interview which ask her about her ethnicity, then she would be answering "half Filipino and AMERICAN". If an individual mentions what they are of a certain ethnicity that means they consider themselves as such, you can't put words in their mouth or decide for them that they are not if they consider themselves as such.XXXX 23 June 2006
I know she is "part Greek" and that is fine, but this is not a list of "Part Greeks" and neither is the category. It's a list of Greek Americans. That's why you need a source that describes her as Greek-American or Greek. Not "I'm half Filipino and half German, Greek, French and maybe Irish". Anyway, I'm currently sourcing the list, so you can see what I mean by the sources I use. Mad Jack 18:54, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Wait a minute...when has it been dicided that a Greek-American is refrence to ONLY' "full Greeks" and "Part Greeks" can't make the list even when THEY themselves state themselves as being such? When did User talk:Sysin and others decide that is what it entitles someone to be on this list? XXXX 23 June 2006
Who is User:Sysin? It doesn't matter "how" Greek a person is by ethnicity. They could be 1/4 Greek, as long as they are described by a reliable source as "Greek-American" or "Greek" (if they are also American). I think "Half Greek" is borderline, but I am not sure. I usually include "Half" (as long as it's actually "Half Greek", not "Half Greek/French/Dutch"). Anyway, this is in accordance with Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No Original Research. If we want to put someone on a list of "X", we need a source that they are actually "X", not anything that in anyone's opinion makes them that. That's the way all the ethnicity-Americnan pages are now done. See List of British Jews, List of Catholic American entertainers and List of Greeks where User:Grace Note and others explained this. Oh, and obviously if a person describes themselves as "Greek" or "Greek American" we can include them, but not when that someone says they are "French/Irish/Greek/Dutch/Welsh/Portuguese" - this is not a list of "French/Irish/Greek/Dutch/Welsh/Portuguese" people. Mad Jack 19:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Well then, I'm sorry, didn't realize that when the source is the person THEMSELVES who states they are GREEEK, its not "reliabale" sourcing. Yeah, that makes logic. Kind of splitting hairs there aren't we? Again who decided that to be listed on the Greek-American list a person has to be FULL one 100% Greek-American and part Greek does not count...especially when the people THEMSELVES, I'm not talking about second sources but first hand quoted which say they are Greek, they can't be put on this list? Like I said, yeah, that makes a lot of sense...not. XXXX 23 June 2006

Yeah, but the person "THEMSELVES!!!" did not say they are "Greek", did they? They said "I'm half Filipino, half Welsh/Irish/Greek/etc." There is a bit of difference, you will agree. Like I said, the person doesn't even have to be close to being 100%. All that is needed is a reliable source that just says they are Greek, including themselves. Though "Greek/Welsh/French mother" isn't the same as "Greek" Mad Jack 19:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean they didn't say it themselves? Its a straight up quote from her mouth. It seems like you are trying to make a case where there isn't one to made. She SAID it: "You are very exotic, what are your nationalities?" HER reply "My father is Filipino. He came over to the U.S. with his family when he was 17. My mother is Greek, Cherokee Indian, English and possibly Irish and German. There's some dispute." AND in this reply: "Hey, J! What's your ethnic background?" Her reply "I am half Filipino; the other half is a mixture of Greek, English, Indian, Irish and German." You can try to twist it and put words in her mouth and decide what she is or in't for her all you want, the fact remains she said the following: "You are very exotic, what are your nationalities?" HER reply "My father is Filipino. He came over to the U.S. with his family when he was 17. My mother is Greek, Cherokee Indian, English and possibly Irish and German. There's some dispute." AND in this reply: "Hey, J! What's your ethnic background?" Her reply "I am half Filipino; the other half is a mixture of Greek, English, Indian, Irish and German." That is what her ethnicities are, let see what does word ethnic mean: "An ethnic group is a human population whose members identify with each other"ethnic. If she did not identify herself as such she would not have made mention of all the ethnic backgrounds that she has. Period. XXXX 23 June 2006
I don't understand. Did you just miss what I said? She didn't call herself "Greek", she called herself "half" a bunch of stuff, one of which was Greek. This is the fundemental difference. Mad Jack 19:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Actually she did not say "a half of bunch stuff:, she name each one specifically meaning she give credence to those ethnicities just as much she does her Filipino side or else she would not have bothered to name it them all. As I stated above that's the reason I listed her as I did. I usually do a detailed search for reliable sources before putting anything in. So why shouldn't she be listed here? Mallaccaos, 23 June 2006

The people don't have to be 100% Greek to be listed here - and indeed a large number of the ones I sourced just now are not 100% Greek. They just have to have been called "Greek-American" or "Greek" (if they are American) by a reliable source). I tried making a proposal on all these ethnicity-American lists (the critiera were something like a person being half that group) in April, but it failed and it was explained to me by higher powers that the only way to do these lists is strictly follow Wikipedia policy - i.e. if a person is described as "X", we can call them "X" or put them on a list of "X". Not if they are described as anything that we thinks makes them "X", like "X father", "X descent", etc. Now they are all done this way, including, almost last but not least, this list. If you have a source where Chakos is described/describes herself as "Greek" or "Greek-American", you can list here. Otherwise, it's just your/my/whoever's opinion that she belongs on a List of Greek-Americans, even though she has not actually been described as specifically that (i.e. it is your opinion that "she gives credence" to being Greek, while all she really says is she is "half Filipino and half Greek,German, Irish,etc.", which is not quite the same thing - i.e. she doesn't say she is "Greek" or even just plain "half Greek"). Anyway, you can also ask User:Grace Note about this, or see his posts at List of Catholic American entertainers, List of British Jews, or List of Greeks. Mad Jack 04:59, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I am Greek, so consider my two cents partially biased if you wish. My view is that if people themselves declare 0.01% Turkish ancestry, then they should make it in the Category:Turkish Americans. My reasoning behind this is simple:
On the other hand I can understand considerations when people declare multiple ethnic backgrounds. However, WP is NOT paper, so we can just include them in all respective Categories:X-Americans, since the thin genetic connection can be stressed in their biographies.:NikoSilver: 13:33, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Can you imagine what would then happen to people like Val Kilmer or David Carradine? They'd be in something like 10 different ethnicity-American categeories, making us look very silly. How would having a Turkish great-great-great-great-grandfather influence anyone in any way? At best, it's a trivial detail in their background that would have no effect on their life. But of course, both that and what you said are our own opinions, and that's probably why this whole thing is necessary - these would be done adding only those whom reliable sources have declared to be, in this case, Turkish-American or Turkish (including, of course, the person themselves - so if the person declares themselves Turkish regardless of how much Turkish ancestry they have, we can add them). This is the only way to strictly follow Wikipedia policy and avoid original research - i.e. someone adds a person to a Turkish-Americans list because they have a Turkish great-grandfather. It is that contributor's opinion that they belong there, even though neither the person themselves nor any reliable source expresses that opinion beforehand - all they did was say that the person has a Turkish grandfather.

Sourcing parts of this list yesterday, I found that the majority of people who have at least a Greek parent have been described as Greek-American or even just plain Greek by a reliable source, so for the most part this policy actually makes sense. The big "argument" above was about Jessica Chakos, for instance, and aside from the fact that she has not been described as just "Greek" or Greek-American, I can't see the encyclopedic value of listing someone who quite clearly, at best, has a Greek grandparent, and from the looks of it even less. By the way, Mallaccaos, I noticed you did have sources above that said some of the people that were de-listed were "Greek", so, since you didn't, I will restore them. Mad Jack 16:45, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

There were definitely more sources there then I first thought, so thank you for looking that up, Mallacaos. For some reason, "Greg Dulli" was listed as having a Greek great-grandmother previously, which is odd, because the source quite clearly says he is Greek. The other sources don't actually say the people are Greek or Greek-American, but there may be sources for them elsewhere. By the way, did Kelly Clarkson's mother's parents change their name? Her mother's birth name is Jeanne Anne Rose. Mad Jack 16:57, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok. I think we mainly agree. Only, we shouldn't judge this subjectively. There has to be a way to categorize without question. My guess, is that there are people with as much as e.g. even a Thai father or mother who haven't declared being of Thai descent, because for some reason they were raised not to think they were Thai. However, there may also exist others, who have a greatn-grand-father who is a Sumerian, and self-identify as part-Sumerian, because they were raised to think so, and are proud of it. Therefore, I propose that we categorize people as they themselves wish. Their own self-identification, has to be respected, and if they get in the trouble of even remebering all their ancestral ethnicities, then what the heck, let'em have their 10 X-American categories! I mean, how many are there that can remember and declare such a detail? If they do, then it means something for them! :NikoSilver: 22:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

But just because someone says "I have Dutch, Greek and French ancestry" doesn't mean they are Dutch-American, Greek-American and French-American. It just means they have Dutch, French, and Greek ancestry. By categorize themselves, I would imagine it would be something like "I'm French", "I'm Greek", etc. or at worst "I'm half Greek", and that fits in perfectly with that's going on here. I can't see the encyclopedic point of putting someone in a category for every great-grandparent they had. "if they do, it means something to them" is also an opinion. This issue is obviously very complicated and there are a lot of intreprations to it. Ultimately that's why this is necessary - listing as "X-American" only if a reliable source, including the person in question, said that they are "X-AMerican" or just "X" (as opposed to "X" grandmother, "X descent" or "X, Y, Z, A, B and D") then they should be listed. Anything else is just my or your or someone else's intrepration of what an "X-American" is or should be. Mad Jack 23:04, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Exactly. My and your opinion are subjective. We need an objective criterion for X-Americans. I have made a proposal regarding self-identification. Genealogy is far too complicated. I mean where are you going to stop? What is half-X to you? How about those who just happen to be 0.25-X, but self-id as X because they just don't like the 0.75-Y rest of them? And what exactly constitutes a 0.5 or a 0.33 or a 0.25 X-ancestry? How are we going to define that, and why should we bother, if the person him/herself states what is important for him/her? BTW have you read about the Janissaries? What do you think? Are they Ottomans or what? :NikoSilver: 23:22, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh, yeah, if their great-grandmother was "X" but they say "I'm X" they are included. That's perfectly fine. It doesn't matter how much "X" ancestry someone has, as long as they are described as "X" by a reliable source, including themselves (and like I said, described as "half X" is probably borderline but fine). I haven't read about the Janissaries, but if one of them says "I am Ottooman" or a reliable source describes them as "Ottoman", then they should be included. :) Mad Jack 23:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
It's so trivial anyway. I guess we have two options for X-Americans then:
  • Self-identify as X or atleast as half-X, regardless of actual geneaology. For the others, their other thin ethnicities will be mentioned in their bios, but they won't get their X-American category.
  • Self-identify as even 1% X. They get their X-American category, and the thin-ness of their X-ethnicity is clarified in their bios.
I still go for #2, coz I think that if someone gets in the trouble of remembering his/her 1% thin ethnicities, then they mean something to them. In any case, I guess there won't be so many thin cases. I'd hate it if we did this the poll way... :NikoSilver: 23:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I would go for #2, also Nikos. ~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006

Well, someone could mention what they ate for breakfast that morning. It doesn't mena it's notable or important. I don't think this is a poll or anything. It's under Wikipedia's policies that we can call someone "X" if they have been described as "X" - I mean relating to any subject matter, not ethnicities or anything specific. Mad Jack 23:51, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

As I said, what you and I think is subjective. I would never equate thin-ethnicity to something as trivial as breakfast, though. And let me get it straight: I hate it too that people like your Jessica Chakos will have 8 (or so) sub-cats, but I think they are very very few, so no problem. On the other hand, if we indescriminately remove sub-cats from people that would state otherwise, then we are wrong. What do you mean by your WP policy comment above? Is there a specific policy that states that if someone self-identifies as little as 1%o X, they shouldn't be categorized as X (or as X-American for that matter)? I seriously doubt that. :NikoSilver: 00:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
No, like I said there is nothing specific, but as has been explained to me, things like the Wikipedia:No original research policy state "Articles may not contain any previously unpublished theories, data, statements, concepts, arguments, or ideas; or any new analysis or synthesis of published data". So, if someone says "I Have some French ancestry" and Wikipedia turns this into labelling the person "French American", even though no reliable sources have done that, that's a synthesis/analysis of published data, and thus original research, or even Wikipedia:Verifiability, which says "Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources." I.e. if someone says "my grandmother was Spanish", and Wikipedia puts them into a "Spanish-American" category, that's specifically a viewpoint and/or argument that hasn't been published elsewhere. The maximum amount of categories - and this is my opinion only - should be 2. But of course, if someone says "I'm X", and later says "I'm Y", and later says "I'm Z", we can't argue with them and that would be three categories. Mad Jack 00:11, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

What do WP:NOR and WP:V, have to do with anything? If the guy says he has some French ancestry, then he's French-American. That is my view. Where is the synthensis/analysis in that? What are those arbitrary limits you drop here and there? "X or at least half-X", "max 2 sub-cats"? This is highly subjective. I could say: "at least 0.24365-X" and "max 4 sub-cats". In essence, there is no definition, no policy, no guideline, no rule, no poll, nothing that sets the limit. We two are the last ones who will decide about something like that. Oh, and BTW, who cares about X-Americans anyway? It is a general issue for all X-Y categories! :NikoSilver: 00:22, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

"If the guy says he has some French ancestry, then he's French-American. That is my view." Exactly. That's your view. That's the synthesis part. The guy says he has some French ancestry. You or me or whoever now synthesizes it into that person being French-American. That's the synthesis that's not allowed under Original Research. And you said it yourself - it's your view - and that's the verifiability part, that says the viewpoint can't be put in unless a reliable source also expressed that view - i.e. the sourceh as to actually say the guy is French-American. These policies effect every article - the lists too. Yes, it's the same for all categories. I.e. can't put someone into the "Scientologists" category unless a source actually says they're Scientologist, etc. It is the same for everyone. Like I said, it was just my opinion that an article shouldn't have more than two ethnicity cats. If a reliable source describes that person as "X-American", then another later says "Y-American", and a third also adds "B-American", then all three can be put in, regardless of my opinion. Mad Jack 02:17, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
So, in our case, where someone says: I am X, then you can list him under X-Americans. When someone says I am half-X, then also you can list him under X-Americans. But if he says I am X and Y and Z and Omega you can't list him in all four cats? I really don't get what you're saying. What is the difference? Isn't the person himself a reliable source? Are these ethnicities lesser just because they are more? The person himself decided to state them all, instead of plain American. How can you overlook that? Isn't that arbitrary and subjective and WP:NOR too? :NikoSilver: 10:19, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Nikos, Mallaccaos and XXXXX. Its these people themselves who stated that they are of such and such origins, that's legit and reliable sourcing as you can get. As it was stated, if these people did not put value in knowing what their origins/ethinicities were they would not make the efford to know each and everyone of them but would just say I'm American not I'm American of X Y Z ethnicities'. BONK 26 June 2006 (UTC)

The question here is not whether they are a reliable source or not - obviously that was never the issue. I told you already, if someone says "I am X" and later "I am Y" and later "I am omega", that sounds fine. But when someone says "I am X,Y,Z,D,F,E,G,L,M,N,P" at the same time, it is not quite the same as saying "I am X". Mad Jack 17:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Well then what's the problem with these ones? Accordign to the sources that Mallaccaos provided they are either 100% Greek-American or 50% Greek American: Hank Azaria both his mother's and father's parents are Greek Jews who came from Thessaloniki, Greece; same thing with Gabrielle Carteris and her family is of Romaniotes descent basically making her 100% of Greek Jew descent; Nick Cassavetes is 50% Greek on father's side and 50% American on mother's; Patricia Field is 50% Greek(100% Greek mother) and 50% Armenian(100% Armenian father); Slim Gaillard was 50% Greek(100% Greek father) and 50% Afro-Cuban(100% mother's side); Athena Kottak is 50% Greek(100% Greek mother who was Miss Hellas) and 50% Welsh(100% Welsh father); Bill Koutsouros 100% Greek (both parents are Greek); Peter Maneos 50% Greek(100% Greek father) and 50% Italian(100% Italian mother); Julia Migenes she might be as you call it "Y and Z" on her mom's side but she is 50% Greek on her father's side(100% Greek father) and gives credence to it since she make mention that it is the passionate mixture of Greek and Irish-Puerto-Rican descent which made her as she is; Elizabeth Perkins she is 50% Greek on her father's side(who was 100% Greek) and is even a contrubitor to the The Hellenic Times Scholarship Fund PLUS she was one of the many Greek-American's honored at The Hellenic Times event, meaning she acknowledge's her Greek heritage. BONK 26 June 2006

As for why a person mentions their ethnicities in the first place, it is silly to suggest it is because it means something to them. Most of the time, an interviewer or whoever simply asks them. Just because they don't forget to mention their great-grandma's ethnicity doesn't automatically make them "Y-American".

And its silly for you to suggest that it does not mean anything to them. If it didn't mean anything to them, they would not mention it, since they mention it, it means they do know something about their family history, meaning it more then likely is important for them to remember such details. BONK 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, it doesn't matter "why" it is mentioned, as long as someone says "I am X" that fits in perfectly with a "List of X". "My grandma was X" or "I am of X descent" = "List of people with an X grandma" or "List of people of X descent". It is only through a Wikipedia user's intrepration (unless of course it has been done in a reliable source first) that that statement becomes just "X" Mad Jack 17:25, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Well most of the ones mentioned on this list do say "I am X", what's the problem with the one's I mentioned above? BONK 26 June 2006 (UTC)

No, the sources don't actually say they are Greek or even half Greek. They just say someone's father is Greek, etc. If someone was honored as a Greek-American then they should be on the list, of course, but there needs to be a source for that info. It doesn't matter if it means something to them or not - that's the point. If a person is described as "X", they should be on a "List of X". Doesn't matter why they are described as that. But if they are not actually described as "X", but just something that in a Wikipedia editor's opinion makes them "X", then they shouldn't be on a "List of X" unless a reliable source described them as "X". Mad Jack 19:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually most of those mentioned above do have legit sources which call them Greek, its not from imdb.com or some other trivial sties as you requested. Talk about splitting hairs. When someone says, "my father is Greek", usually its their way of claiming an origins which others would not associate them with, not the opposite. It does not mean they are not saying that they too are not Greek or Italian or whatever. Sorry, but that's what most Americans are made up of, various nationalities, and most proudly declaire what their family roots are, even if they are 4th and 5th and 6th generations. For instance Peter Maneos was born to a Greek father and Italian mother but you can't tell me he does not feel his Greek and Italian roots 'cause he was born "to a Greek father and Italian mother" when he writes such poems as "The Immortal Greek Spirit" among other. ;)~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006
How about people with "X-sisters in law"? Please stop trying to enforce WP:OR practices in defining after which number of ancestral ethnicities a person states, they shouldn'd fit in the respective X-American categories. This whole conversation is absurd, so if there is nothing new to say, we'll have to agree that we disagree.:NikoSilver: 19:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, this conversation is annoying. However, what I am doing is specifically not trying to define anything. That is something we should avoid. What I am doing is saying that reliable sources should define everything for us. If they define something as an X, Wikipedia can. If not, not. Mad Jack 20:02, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

So let me get this straight:

Q1: Someone says (and we have a credible source): "My dad is French and my mom is Italian."

1.A.:He is just an American, no X-American category added whatsoever
1.B.:He is both Italian-American and French-American

Q2: Someone says (and we have a credible source): ""My father is Filipino. (...) My mother is Greek, Cherokee Indian, English and possibly Irish and German. There's some dispute." and "I am half Filipino; the other half is a mixture of Greek, English, Indian, Irish and German."

2.A.:She is just an American, no X-American category added whatsoever
2.B.:She is only Filippino-American (50%)
2.C.:She is all Filippino-American (50%) and Greek-American, English-American, Indian-American, Irish-American and German-American (each by 10%).

Please choose your responses and then explain how that arbitrary limit of 50% is not a WP:OR definition of yours. :NikoSilver: 20:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to repeat myself. If you have a list of Greek-Americans (using this example), you can put anyone on this list who has been described (or described themselves) as "Greek-American" or "Greek" (if they have also been described as "American"). That's it. There is no arbitrary limit of 50%. A person can be 100% Greek and if they aren't described as Greek or Greek-American in a good source, they shouldn't be included. Likewise, a person can be 12% Greek and be included if they are described as "Greek". This isn't a "List of people who say their olive skin comes from their Greek great-grandmother" or a "List of people who have an Italian father and Greek mother and therefore in the eyes of Wikipedia editors should be on a List of Greek-Americans". Q1 is in no category or list, if that's the only piece of info on their backgroumd. Q2 was described as "half Filipino". I am not sure about this "half" business - it seems border line to me. But I do acknowledge that if someone has been described as "part-time politician" they would be on a list of politicians, so "half" seems OK to me - but I am not sure. Q1 being put on a list of French Americans or Italian Americans would simply be because it is the opinion of the Wikipedia editor who put them there that they belong on that list. And obviously, the opinions of Wikipedia editors are not important, only the opinions of reliable sources. Same for putting Q2 on the various ethnicies mentioned above - Greek/English/etc. - it would be the opinion of a Wikipedia editor. Well, in the opinion of this Wikipedia editor they don't belong. And that's exactly why we don't use either my, your, or anyone else's opinions - only the opinions of reliable sources. It's exactly this "synthesis" that's not allowed under No Original Reseach, and this "viewpoint" that a person is automatically Greek-American because of this or that, that's not allowed under verifiability. I am going to check your additions above, Mallaccaos, to see if the sources you just added describe the person as actually Greek, and then I'll restore the ones that are. Oh, and why did you include the quote on printed sources? There's no problem with using off-line sources. Mad Jack 22:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Well from where I am standing, we are using one wikipedia editor opinion only since it seems one here is the only one which believes that some of these people, even when they specificially says they are Greek, should not be on this list because they do not shout specifically from the top of the Empire State Building I AM GREEK or GREEK AMERICAN! In that case I propose what I proposed above, since we do not agree as to what an American of "W, X, Y, Z" ancestry should be categorized, how 'bout they are categorized under Americans of Greek Ancestry labeled at the top of the page: "This category is of any American who has Greek ancestry in their multiple ancestries"; or something like that. Not exactly like that and it can so definitely be re-worded, I just kind of threw that out there as an example. I believe these are interesting tibit-facts for any Cliff Clavin's out there, such as myself, who likes looking up interesting unkown facts about individuals...and trust me, there a plenty of people out there who like looking up such info. ;)~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006


If a person specifically says that they are Greek, they should be on the list. But you are not differentiating from someone who says their father is Greek, or they have Greek ancestry, from a person who actually says they are "Greek". Again, we can use only the opinions of reliable sources. If you believe these are interesting tidbits then you can certainly add the information about someone's Greek background to their article. However, it is quite a different thing to mention that someone has some Greek ancestry then it is adding them to a category that says they are actually "Greek-American". Again, we are not using my opinion. My opinion would be, say, that Mena Suvari is not Greek-American, despite her Greek mother. Yet a reliable source, Suvari herself, says she is "Greek", so she is on this list. And so on and so on. If you want to claim that someone is Greek-American, you have to have sources that explicitly agree with you. Mad Jack 22:28, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I have been using reliable sources and you still are not using them are consider them "unreliable" for whatever reason, as my examples shown below. ~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006
I disagree and I won't go for part-solutions to this either, as Mallaccaos suggested. They are part Greek => they are Greek-American. End of story. Mad Jack, nobody WP:OWNS this article. I'll add all of them back tomorrow if someone else doesn't. I stand by my opinion and your rational is not at all convincing anybody here. Sorry. She herself said she's part Greek in a reliable source. That is enough for me. You can explain how thin her Greekness is in her bio if you want. :NikoSilver: 22:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

"They are part Greek => they are Greek-American. End of story." - this is your opinion. It is a synthesis, which is explicitly not allowed under the original research policy. Mad Jack 22:32, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, no. It's the other way around: They are not some arbitrary WP:OR defined percentage Greek, then they don't make it in the list. This, is not allowed. :NikoSilver: 22:37, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
I just told you there is no percentage needed! They just have to be described as Greek-American in a reliable source, regardless of how much Greek ancestry they have. Mad Jack 22:39, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
You also told me that if they say they are Greek or half-Greek then they should make it (without explicitly being called "Greek-Americans"). I say they can also be as little as 1% Greek and self-identify as such to make it. Why do you allow WP:OR for Greek or half-Greek, calling them Greek-Americans and you don't allow it for 10% Greek? Clearly because of WP:OR. :NikoSilver: 22:42, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
If a person actually says they are "Greek", that is a reliable source for them being "Greek" (as long as we have a reliable source that they are "American"). If a person is 1% Greek and says "I identify as Greek" they should be on the list (but don't confuse them just saying "I have some Greek ancestry" with actually saying "I am Greek"). Same for a person who is 10% Greek. Again, this isn't about percentages. It is only about these people being actually described as "Greek-American" or "Greek" ("American") in a reliable source. As I said, being described as "half Greek" seems borderline and I am not sure how it falls under V and NOR. Mad Jack 22:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict) And as I said, your rational is not convincing anybody here. If they say Greek and X and Y and Z and whatever, then they are Greek-Americans. If you had a cat for 10%-Greek-Americans, then that'd be it, but I think this is silly. Explain it in their bios. I'll add them tomorrow if someone else doesn't get to it first. It's 2am here. Goodnight. :NikoSilver: 22:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
So wait a second, you left Tommy Lee on the list but not his sister Athena Kottak? Do pray tell as to why? and even though Chris Spheeris no matter where you look on his official site talks about his Greek heritage such as On November 3rd, Chris was awarded “Musician of the Year” by the Elios Society of Northern California. The black-tie charity ball event in San Francisco raised funds for college scholarships and archeological digs in Greece. Chris was in the good company of fellow Greek honorees Yanni, Billy Zane and his sister Lisa Zane. Chris sang (yes, sang) one of his songs in Greek (yes, in Greek) and shared the stage with Cory Lerios and Pablo Cruise, the Dick Bright Orchestra and the Greek band Kymata. Says Chris, “It was me who was honored to be in the company of such a warm and high-minded group of people.” he doesn't make the list? and Elizabeth Perkins who not only is a regular contrubitor to the The Hellenic Times Scholarship Fund BUT she was one of the many Greek-American's honored at The Hellenic Times event, she doesn't make the list? Now that's logic for you. [roll] ~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006
I don't understand your question. If Chris Spheeris is described as one of "fellow Greeks" he should be on the list. If you have a source that Perkins was honored as a "Greek-American" she should be on the list. Mad Jack 22:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Mad Jack, I provided the link for you above to his official site, which he over sees personally, by saying "fellow Greek honorees" he is calling himself a Greek alongside the other Greeks mentioned on that site. By saying his music is influenced by his Greek Orthodox upbring, he is 100%% saying he is Greek; I did give you sources for Elizabeth Perkins too, she is a regular contrubitor to The Hellenic Times Scholarship Fund and she was honored (2002 Margo & John Catsimatidis, Elizabeth Perkins, Jim Gianopulos, Voula & Nick Katsoris) and (Nick Katsoris presents Elizabeth Perkins), along with many other fellow Greek-Americans such as Marilu Henner,(1998 Marilu Henner with Margo Catsimatidis & Marilu Henner with Nick Katsoris ), Melina Kanakaredes, Michael Chiklis, Tina Fey, Nick Cassavetes which you still did not add to the list ([7] 2000 Honorees Patrick Tatopoulos, Tita Scandalis Monti and Nick Cassavetes), Paula Cale and Thalia Assuras who although not Greek-American, she is of Greek-Canadian descent and was therefore honored as such (1999 Thalia Assuras and Paula Cale) pics from the Hellenic Times Anniversary that honors famous Greeks around the world. ~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006

I know you provided the link - I already restored Chris Spheeris before you posted this reply. And I found the link for Perkins and restored her, too. I'll look at the honorees link and restored the names from there accordingly. Mad Jack 23:44, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Mallaccaos, add all of the above in the article. I and 2 more users here will support your version. Mad Jack, try and gather consensus for your WP:OR. Back tomorrow. Goodnight. :NikoSilver: 22:55, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I've already added Chris Spheeris and Perkins - I found the Hellenic Times event article for Perkins. Mad Jack 22:56, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Just saw all this, oh well, the above comes in handy anyway. Looking for the Elizabeth Perkins pic also came across some other good usefule ones. ~ BONK 26 June 2006
I still do not understand why Athena Kottak does not make the list. ~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006

OK, as for the others - Frank Zappa - all I can find is his father being part Greek. Diane von Fürstenberg - nothing except that her mom was Greek Jewish. Tiffani Thiessen - only comment is "I'm a mutt. I have so much of everything in me, and half of it I don't even know" and tha she "has Greek, Turkish and Welsh" on one side. She doesn't say she is Greek, she says she is a "mutt" of different backgrounds and that she only has Greek as one of several ethnicities on one side. Jimmie Spheeris - nothing directly relating to him - just family relations. Liz Ryder - Greek father - nothing on Liz herself. Sofia Milos - American? Julia Migenes - Greek, Irish Puerto Rican descent - says nothing about her actually being Greek. Peter Maneos - Greek father. Charles Lederer - the whole Marion Davies thing hasn't been confirmed. Bill Koutsouros - this must have a source says he is actually Greek out there. This guy is obviously Greek-American so it shouldn't be hard to find. Athena Kottak - needs a source directly relating to her, not her brother. Erika Harold - a lot of ethnicities - no mention that she is just "Greek". Slim Gaillard - don't know. Jenascia Chakos - states she is "half filipino and half Greek/Irish/Scottish/etc." nowhere does she say that she is "Greek". Gabrielle Carteris - Greek Jewish parents - nothing on her. Hank Azaria - same thing. There are sources that they are both "Jewish" so that is good for the Jewish lists, needs sources that actually describe them as "Greek-American" or "Greek". Mad Jack 23:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree that a few like Sofia Milos, unless she became a US citizens should not make the list and I have not found any additional info on her yet as well Charles Lederer because as you said the whole Marion Davies thing hasn't been resovled but a few other on that list that at least have one parent who is 100% Greek should not be a question at all. ~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006
I'm not sure you understand, Jack, in regards to at least Jimmie Spheeris, Liz Ryder, Julia Migenes, Peter Maneos and Athena Kottak, where they have at least one parent who is 100% Greek, then they are most definately Greek-American. If you go to Athena's wiki bio it says that her sons, Matthew James and Miles David were baptized at St. Anthony’s Greek Orthodox Church in Pasadena, California.[8] Gabrielle Carteris and Diane von Fürstenberg come from Greek Jewish backgrounds hence Greek Jewish in America 99% of the time keep their identity alive[ especially in Carteris' case who is of Romaniotes origins. BONK 23:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, I found a link for Patricia Field[9] Mad Jack 00:02, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Mallaccaos, are you "User:BONK"? Mad Jack 00:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
No, why what happened? What did I miss? I have tried to read this whole very long discussion and have not seen anything? Did something happen? I'm me and just post as Mallaccaos and none else. ~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006
Sorry that was my mistake. I don't know how to sign my posts and usually copy someone elses signature and change the name afterwards, for example I would copy: ~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006 and then change the Mallaccaos to BONK, only I forgot to change it this last time and went back later to correct it. Sorry about the mix up. Still new to this stuff. See, right now I just copied yours, Jack, but remebered to change it this time. BONK 00:05, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Oh...is that it? Well just don't start swearing and being uncivilized while posting my user name. LoL! No seriously, though, please be careful and next time. I don't want to loose my right on wiki. I enjoy the community alot and like to add new articles when I can. Much appreciate it. Regards ~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006
Again, sorry about that Mallaccaos, did not mean to cause any mix up here. Take care. ~ BONK 26 June 2006

Pictures

May I suggest spreading the pictures around the article? It's a little pointless to have them at the bottom Mad Jack 20:05, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Updated list

Mad Jack, I noticed you added quite a bit of the ones you took out back in. Much appreciated. Regards. ~ Mallaccaos, 26 June 2006

Oh yeah, as I said I would do, I put 'em back in as soon as I got a source that they were actually Greek. So no problem there. :) Mad Jack 02:32, 27 June 2006 (UTC)