Talk:List of French Americans/Archive 1

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I was filling in this list until I started to have a major objection to it.

There is a distinct differece between a person in the United States who himself or his family originated in France and a person in United States with roots in French Canada.

French Canadians are more different from the French than Americans are from the English.

A shared border and sometimes shared cultural icons is a very different circumstance than an immigrant or mercenary from a distant strange land.

Admittedly both the French and French Canadians originate in France (though I suspect Belgians and Swiss may also qualify) but there is 350 years and a revolution separating them.

  • Good god yes I made that mistake when I first encountered by Belgian in-laws "So you are french" "FRENCH! FRENCH! We are French-speaking not f**king French!" - I thought I was going to have to sleep on the road :) --Charlesknight 19:58, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Contents

Ethnicity lists discussion

Please see discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) for current discussion of a potential policy to apply to all ethnicity lists on Wikipedia, including this one. JackO'Lantern 20:40, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Dan Aykroyd and Alex Trebek

The addition of Dan Aykroyd and Alex Trebek to a list of French Americans may sound questionable, since both grew up in Canada, but I feel it appropriate in this case, since Aykroyd has spent the majority of his time in the US for three decades, and Trebek is now a naturalized US citizen and has officially earned the right to be on this list. Heff01 02:15, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Being a US citizen is definitely good enough Mad Jack O'Lantern 02:44, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Frank Oz

Frank Oz had his surname shortened from the original Oznowicz. Even though his parents were originally from France, the Wikipedia article on Oz acknowledges their Polish origins. He actually should be in the list of famous Polish Americans.

Wasn't his father Polish Jewish and his mother French Catholic? I guess she might've been Polish, too, I'm not sure. In any case, he should be on this list because of his French birth, anyway. Mad Jack O'Lantern 06:10, 19 April 2006 (UTC)


Alexander Hamilton et al

Alexander Hamilton had a French mother, a Huguenot by the name of Rachel Fawcett Lavien who is mentioned in his Wikipedia article. When in doubt, always check the entry's own Wikipedia article before removing the entry from the list. For that matter, you'll find verification for Elias Boudinot, John C. Frémont, Paul Revere, and Charles Joseph Bonaparte in their own respective articles.---Heff01

We can't rely on Wikipedia article for sourcing other Wikipedia articles (for obvious reasons). Mad Jack 19:00, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

list division

In the 'category: Lists of American people by ethnic or national origin', each group has their own separate list except for this one. Why so? I propose to make a new article 'French Americans', use the existing 'List of Cajuns' article, and create 'List of Creole people' article and then have each article separately within the above category. Questions/comments? Thanks Hmains 04:03, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. However, I would still link those two lists from this page under the "See also", since the cultures are definitely related. But yes, the title would be back to just "French Americans" Mad Jack 04:25, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

if anyone could help me categorizing everyone of these guys. I would really appreciate it. take care 216.165.37.106 03:45, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


GUYS I AM THE ONE WHO CREATED THIS PAGE AND ALL THESES NAMES ARE THE RESULT OF 2 YEAR THESIS!!!! THEY ARE ALL ACCURATE, I DIDNT PUT A SINGLE PERSON FOR WHICH I HD DOUBTS..... ASK ME BEFORE RE-VANDALIZING THE PAGE AGAIN PLEASE Abdelkweli 17:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You must have sources. It is as simple as that. Please read and understand WIkipedia policy. We do not list by last names. We can not have pictures of people on these lists - see relevant section on Talk:List of Puerto Ricans. Mad Jack 17:26, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Page

Why was this moved, without consensus, to a new page title? Why are Cajuns listed here, when they have their own page? Mad Jack 06:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I also recall there were quite a bit more sources cited here - some of which now seem gone. I will shortly be removing all Cajuns who are on that page, as well as people who have not been described as French Americans. I can not, for the life of me, see the value of listing people because of some French great-grandfather they had. This is, after all, an encyclopedia, not a collection of random and near-irrelevant facts. Mad Jack 06:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Cajuns are a type of franch-americans, so they should be on this list and on the french american list. 66.65.156.230 17:16, 1 July 2006 (UTC) Please read Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:No Original Research. You cannot list people here because they have a French last name. That wouldn't even be enough for a page called Americans of French descent. You also can not include pictures of people, by the way (See Talk:List of Puerto Ricans). We have a page of Cajuns and a page of Creoles, for people who have been described as Cajuns and Creoles by reliable sources. I can remove any name here until you cite it to a source that says they are a French American. See Wikipedia:Citing sources - "any material that is challenged and has no source may be removed by any editor." - which I plan to do, because you've taken a perfectly cited page and added in a bunch of nonsense based on last name. Mad Jack 16:54, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The Unverified

If you delete any people due to thought that they are not well enough cited, please list them on this page as opposed to just deleting them. Michael 21:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The people who I did not move here were Cajuns or Creoles, and they are on the List of Cajuns and List of Louisiana Creoles - which are linked to from here. A Cajun or a Creole is its own distinct culture and ethnic identity - a spin-off from French - which is why it is linked from here. They used to all be under the same page - but user Hmains separated them into three lists. Mad Jack 22:36, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
However, I might have been hasty in removing Blanco. The source does explicitly call her "French", aside from calling her a "Cajun". I will restore her. Mad Jack 22:43, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh jezz, Jackie's father was 1/4 French. Please find a source that calls Jackie Bouvier a French-American or French. Not her father (and the source didn't even call her father French or French-American, just said that he was "Of French ancestry", which is only partially correct anyway). Mad Jack 22:58, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Partly?

Isn't there a word called Partially? I could've sworn.... Mad Jack 23:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

List criteria

I really don't understand this list - it's called French-Americans yet many of the people on here have a grandfather or something who maybe is partly french - sometime, somewhere. That seems to make them people who have people who have a french connection in their history rather than being French-American?

What the inclusion criteria?

--Charlesknight 23:10, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

You're quite right, there are still a few of these. There is no criteria except basic Wikipedia policy. If a source calls someone a "French American", they should be on the list (or "French" if we know them to be American). If it doesn't, they can't be. No "French grandmother", "French last name", "French descent",etc. Wikipedia editors do not get to decide who is or is not a French American. Only sources do. So I hope that adresses that concern. Mad Jack 23:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Bouvier

Sigh... the source says she was proud of her French ancestry. It doesn't say she considered herself French or French-American..... Very anal standards, I know, but... I won't remove her yet. I'll look for another source or something. Mad Jack 23:19, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

It says Laroquette is of French-Irish descent.... Mad Jack 23:23, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


Christopher Lambert

Has he ever held American citizenship? Sure he was born in the states but as a french citizen? Therefore he does not met the criteria listed at the top of the actual article.

--Charlesknight 23:32, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

He holds American citizenship, having been born in the U.S. He does not need to have held French citizenship to be a French American, though. Michael 23:34, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah right - thanks for clearing that up for me. --Charlesknight 23:37, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Philip Danforth Armour

His own article says he was of scottish-irish origins?

--Charlesknight 23:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Is there a source for either? Michael 23:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

No - Genelogy (sp?) sites suggest that Armour is the Irish-scotish version of a french word.

--Charlesknight 23:49, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Despot

The next one on that list is Despot - which google tells me come from serbia. How are we coming up with french connections for those people?


--Charlesknight 23:49, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I'll look into that one right now. Michael 23:51, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I see the one you're talking about, but I think that's a different Despot from a few hundred years ago. Michael 23:54, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

OK but what's the evidence this guy has a french connection?

--Charlesknight 23:55, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't know... Michael 23:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)


Therefore in line with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability (which states - 3. The obligation to provide a reputable source lies with the editors wishing to include the material, not on those seeking to remove it.) I will remove those tomorrow unless someone comes up with a source?

--Charlesknight 00:02, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. Michael 00:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I assume you're talking about the unsourced people... Yes, definitely remove anyone unsourced to a source that actually says they are "French American" or "French". As for Lambert, the sources says he is French. I was under the impressions that he was American, but I could be mistaken... Mad Jack 00:16, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Lambert's from the U.S. Being born here makes him an American citizen, correct? Michael 00:20, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I have no idea. :) Maybe. But not necessarily. Mad Jack 00:22, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, if you are born in one country, you enjoy citizenship of that nation, as well as the nation your mother comes from if she is not an actual resident or citizen of the country in which she gives birth (i.e. if a woman is temporarily in a nation and gives birth). That usually does not apply to the father under the law, though. It's pretty complicated...but anyone born in the U.S. is an American citizen, though you may also get joint-citizenship. Michael 00:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


Right I've removed them - anyone find find any verification that they were french-american - stick 'em back in.

Bob Pettit

While Pettit could be of french origins - Pettit has also been an english surname since the 11th century. So... evidence of being a french-american?

--Charlesknight 08:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Sidney Lanier

As above - evidence he was a french-american?

--Charlesknight 09:04, 2 July 2006 (UTC)


Please take a look at this page

http://www.trivia-library.com/b/people-races-ethnicity-in-the-u-s-french-americans-part-2.htm

and the names given at the end. Famous French Americans: Essayist Henry David Thoreau; poets Sidney Lanier and Stephen Vincent Benet; actresses Claudette Colbert and Leslie Caron; press secretary to Pres. John F. Kennedy Pierre Salinger; Jacqueline Bouvier Kennedy Onassis; union organizer Eugene Debs; meat packer Philip Armour; progressive governor and senator Robert La Follette; pirate Jean Laffite; bacteriologist and Pulitzer Prize-winning author Rene Jules Dubos; the Marquis de Lafayette, who was commissioned by Congress to serve as major general in the Revolutionary War; Pierre Samuel Du Pont de Nemours, economist and statesman who fled to the U.S. during the French Revolution, and his son, Eleuthere Irenee Du Pont de Nemours, an industrialist and chemist who founded the family firm that still bears his name; naval officer Stephen Decatur; and the Statue of Liberty, whose residence in New York harbor began in 1886 on what was then called Bedloe's Island. Abdelkweli 16:38, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Excellent! You can list exactly every person on the link you just gave me, which explicitly describes them as "French Americans" and not anything else. In fact, I will restore/cite the names immediately. These are the kind of sources we need. Mad Jack 16:40, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Done! The people on the site are now on the list with sources that actually call them French Americans. Thank you. Mad Jack 16:46, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Rockerfeller

He was actually from a german line. so I removed him. --Charlesknight 20:49, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

To be very blunt - on this showing I'm going to delete anyone without a clear source on friday. I think a week is lots of time for the amounts of editors working on this article to come up with sources (of course I will be looking for sources as well.. --Charlesknight 21:17, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm sure I'll do a clean sweep of source-finding one of these days. Mad Jack 21:55, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

cadillac family

OK the article says: "Cadillac family, from Limousin, gave name to its first car named Limousine (a.k.a. Limo)"

But the Cadillac article says :

"Cadillac was formed from the Henry Ford Company upon Henry Ford's departure along with several partners. With the intent of liquidating the firm's assets, Ford's financial backers, William Murphy and Lemuel Bowen called in engineer Henry M. Leland to appraise the plant and equipment prior to selling them. Instead, Leland persuaded them to continue in the automobile business. Henry Ford's departure required a new name, and on 22 August 1902, the company reformed as the Cadillac Automobile Company.

The Cadillac automobile was named after the 17th century French explorer Antoine Laumet de La Mothe, sieur de Cadillac, founder of Detroit, Michigan in 1701."

So WHOM are we talking about?

--Charlesknight 22:23, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Beats me. They should clearly be removed. Mad Jack 22:24, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I have done so - if another editor wants to put "them" back in we need a source. --Charlesknight 22:27, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

What happened to the talk for this page?

Now it seemed to merged with another page - what happened with the talk? without it - it looks like I was just slashing and burning elements of the article! --Charlesknight 23:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, lol, this is the old talk page - it was around before that user changed the title. I'll look around for the data from the page and re-add it here. Mad Jack 23:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Here it is Mad Jack 23:12, 2 July 2006 (UTC)