Talk:List of French-language Canadian television series

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Contents 1 Merge 2 Summary 2.1 Merge articles 2.2 Separate articles 2.3 Comments 2.4 Result 3 A separate article is totally acceptable 4 Article language

[edit] Merge

Why is Quebec separate from the rest of Canada.

This should be merged into List of Canadian television series.

This is offensive, discriminatory, colonialist, racist. What a glowing example of disrespect and utter incomprehension. Merging Television of Canada into Television of the U.S. would be almost as prepostrous and ludicrous. The article remains. --Liberlogos 03:38, 2 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Well, you do realize Quebec IS a part of Canada, don't you? And it's POV to imply that it isn't. WhisperToMe 06:56, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Quebec culture and English Canadian culture are often very different things. Regardless of how one feels about Quebec sovereignism, Quebec culture does have its own context. One can include Quebec television series in the Canadian list and yet still make a legitimate place for a list unique to Quebec. One doesn't have to exclude the other. And people who have no understanding of the complexity of these issues really oughtta stay out of it. Bearcat 08:00, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It has it's own context, but it's still part of the same political unit, isn't it? It's better to group. I understand the complexity but I still don't see why we have to spin this off to its own category. We can if "Canada" goes over 32k, but please, not now. WhisperToMe 02:29, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Please, not now"? If I didn't know better, from that tone I'd almost think that whether this was one article or two actually had an ounce of impact on your day-to-day life. Honestly, dude, what fricking difference does it make to you? Quebec already has separate articles for every other aspect of its cultural life (eg. List of Quebec writers is not merged with List of Canadian writers, and List of Quebec musicians is not merged with List of Canadian musicians). Quebec already has separate categories for most things. And on top of that, you're from Texas. Not one single Canadian has ever even attempted this, and when it comes to Canadian-related articles, I think the existing consensus of the Canadian contributors -- the people who actually know the subject and its proper context -- quite rightly trumps the opinion of one random American with a weird agenda. Honestly, why is this one article such a sticking point for you? Bearcat 01:10, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't care about the fact that I'm not from Canada. I am a Wikipedian and I feel that the best way to organize these TV shows is to put them in one page and list by language. As for "List of Canadian writers" - that needs to either be divided by province or kept all in one big article. WhisperToMe 03:44, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

So if I waltzed in and arbitrarily reorganized all the Texas-related articles in a way that was inconsistent with the consensus already established by those most knowledgeable about Texas, and then imposed my view again when they reverted it, that'd be okay just because I'm a Wikipedian? Bearcat 03:49, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

1. The "List of Americans" isn't grouped by state, but by occupation. 2. "List of XXX" in a specific sub-section of a general country article tends to happen if the "main" article exceeds 32K. 3. It's troublesome to spin Quebec off to it's own article while calling the rest of Canada "Canadian TV shows". Why not say "List of English-language TV shows in Canada" and "List of French-language TV shows in Canada"? The "Airports of the United States" category is all divided by state. It doesn't just put Texas airports in one category and put the rest of the airports in a "Airports of the USA" category. It's an "all or nothing" here. WhisperToMe 03:58, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Perhaps I chose a bad way to express my point. Let's try it differently: should I have the right to arbitrarily make decisions about articles relating to Texas, Djibouti, Niue, or any other geographical region I don't know anything about, even when the people who live there tell me that my opinions just don't mesh with that region's reality? Oh, and by the way, it is not an absolute, inviolable rule that Wikipedia articles can only be broken up once they exceed 32K. You, yourself, just labelled this a tendency. Bearcat 04:45, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

There are other countries as or even more so culturally divided than Canada. India is heavily divided by culture. "List of Indians" is not separated at all by region, but by occupation. As for the "breakup", while it's not an absolute rule, it's still a tendency. E.G. one could not possibly write about every single state in a "Culture of the United States" thread, so the "culture of the U.S." article would describe the general culture and other articles the specific culture. However, in the case of "list of films", that cannot possibly be done as it is a list of films and not an article describing them. I think it would be better to show the cultural divide by writing articles comparing and contrasting styles of films in "English" Canada and "French" Canada. Also, "List of Indian television series" is not divided at all by "region". WhisperToMe 16:55, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You're not answering the question I asked. Bearcat 20:06, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Here's my answer. Wikipedia:Be Bold. However, one does have to go into discussion if someone else reverts him or her. XD The talk here has not been drawn out that much, so I feel justified in what I did. WhisperToMe 22:51, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

And I feel equally justified in reverting on the basis that it's not for one individual American to single-handedly decide that an existing consensus on how to handle Quebec-related topics needs to be changed. My bottom line is that any decision must be made by a discussion that includes Quebecers in the consensus. Until that happens, the existing consensus has to stand whether you personally approve of it or not. So I guess we're stuck at cross purposes. Bearcat 06:19, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Summary

For the convenience of anybody coming here as a result of the RFC posting, here's a neutral summary of the main points in favour of each position in the debate.

[edit] Merge articles

• Quebec is a Canadian province. Subdivisions of a country do not usually have their own separate culture-related articles and categories. Allowing Quebec to stand as an exception to the rule could be seen as an endorsement of Quebec sovereignism.
• List of Canadian television series does not currently exceed 32K in size.
• A single merged article can be separated into English and French subheadings.

[edit] Separate articles

• Quebec has a distinct media, artistic and literary culture which is almost entirely not shared with any other Canadian province. The vast majority of the names on any "List of Quebec XXX" article -- eg. this article's Ciel, mon Pinard! -- mean nothing to about 98 per cent of Canadians living outside of Quebec. Merging all of Quebec's culture articles into the Canadian equivalents would thus present a distorted view of Canadian cultural reality.
• Quebec already has separate articles for a variety of cultural topics; this page is not an isolated exception. A large number of both articles *and* categories would need to be merged if the RFC consensus were to merge. Having separate articles is an already-established group consensus taken by those Wikipedians who are knowledgeable about, and regularly contribute articles about, Quebec culture, and which has never been opposed until now.
• The issue of Quebec sovereignism makes this a very tricky discussion in which some kind of balance needs to be struck between the fact that Quebec is currently a Canadian province and the fact that many Québécois quite rightly take offense at the implication that Quebec does not have a distinct cultural reality.
• Separate articles can still crosslink to each other. Quebec categories can be (and are) filed as subcategories of Canadian categories as well as subcategories of thematic categories. Wikipedia is not paper; having separate articles does not create a space constraint.

[edit] Comments

• I think it would make more sense to re-title this article as a list of Canadian French-language television series, and change the current Canadian list to a list of Canadian English-language television series. I agree that it seems strange to separate by province for only one province (even given the cultural uniqueness of Quebec). - Cafemusique 11:03, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Cafemusique's proposal has much to recommend it. It would include TFO series, SRC shows produced outside, and TVA's show about Francophone culture hors Quebec. Samaritan 08:08, 3 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• As a Canadian with roots inside and outside Quebec, I feel that Quebec (or French-Canadian, whatever) media should be classified as distinct. Alberta and (say) Manitoba have about the same culture, especially regarding TV, while Quebec is culturally unique. I must also note that endorsing a separate article is not an endorsement of Quebec sovereignty, as the recognition of Quebec as a distinct cultural enclave was inherent in the creation of Canada as a Federation. (Canadians, we don't do the assimilation thing, eh? We like our distinct cultures.)  — Saxifrage | ☎ 22:23, Jan 4, 2005 (UTC)
• I'm with Cafemusique on this. A culture-based distinction is dangerous because then we would have separate lists for each of the cultures in Canada, including Acadiens, Franco-Ontariens, Inuit, dozens of First Nations, Newfoundland, Maritimers, etc. A language-based distinction is clearer and more tenable: group the various francophone cultures under "Canadian French-language television" and the rest under "Canadian English-language television". It would be useful to have sub-headings within the CFLT article for (1) Quebec and (2) francophone groups outside of Quebec. If Quebec does become sovereign in the future, then some work would be required to disentangle and rename the CFLT article, but I'm sure that there will be lots of volunteers to undertake that. Kevintoronto 21:12, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Given Cafemusique's quality suggestion and Kevintoronto incisive point merging seems likely. Personally I find the seperate Quebec entry an afront to me as a Canadian since I do not consider myself an Ontarian. Although Quebecois culture is distinct that is insufficient reason to seperate it. It was correctly noted above that other countries have large cultural divides yet (currently) their articles are not divided by state/province/or culture. That goes against (what I perceive) to be Wiki togetherness; of articles siding philosophically with uniting, not dividing, groups. I feel it also goes against Canadian political/cultural reality, which has less autonomy for regions especially compared to the "United" States. Certainly Quebec would be the exception to the rule given their tendency to want to seperate; however until they do a merge would be appropriate. And of course notes (disclaimers) of the cultural differences of Quebecois (and/or) french programming can be made as a classic Canadian compromise; but I think those distinctions should be made to emphasize Canadian diversity while at the same time the merge accurately reflects political reality and matches Wiki convention. BTW: I use to speak fluent french with a Quebecois accent, so THERE! - RoyBoy [∞] 06:17, 7 Jan 2005 (UTC)
• Why does it matter how different the cultures are? That is the question that must be answered, and that is definitely not following the KISS principle. Canada includes Quebec. A Quebecois show is a Canadian television series since Quebec is a part of Canada. Therefore Quebecois television shows go on the List of Canadian television series page. Personally I wouldn't even divide it up by language, just list them all in alphabetical order. Above all though, remember that it is, in fact, possible for pineapples to parachute. --Ben 07:17, 10 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Apparently there's a consensus to merge and/or to rename for language. May I merge now? WhisperToMe 01:15, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

By my count, there are more votes for renaming than for merging. Bearcat 07:13, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The question I'd have... Is Canada sufficiently distinct (in comparison to other bilingual countries) to warrant the conscious departure from established Wiki formatting? I know we would like to think we are, but I'm doubtful that is actually the case. - RoyBoy [∞] 22:10, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The more immediate question is that if this gets merged into List of Canadian television series, then almost every article filed at Category:Culture of Quebec has to be treated the same way. This can't be an isolated move; the consistency of Quebec-related articles with each other is the one requirement that has to trump anything else. Are you willing to do all that? I sure as hell ain't. Bearcat 06:05, 1 Feb 2005 (UTC)

No, not every single "Quebec-related" article is going to get treated this way. There are several that will remain separate. E.G. "Cuisine of Quebec" and "Culture of Quebec" et al certainly will stay this way. Look at how articles relating to Texas are treated, and you will get an idea. WhisperToMe 04:30, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

On what basis is it reasonable to treat television series differently than food? If Quebec cuisine is distinctive enough to have its own separate article from Canadian cuisine, then the same is a priori true of TV shows. Bearcat 04:32, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yea, different topic matters are treated differently. A list of TV shows produced in Texas doesn't get separate articles, but an article on Tex Mex cooking does. WhisperToMe 05:55, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

False comparison. TexMex is an individual topic equivalent to an individual television show, not a general "culture of X" list. Bearcat 09:02, 6 Feb 2005 (UTC)

But it still has to do with a province/U.S. state of an area. WhisperToMe 04:24, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• It seems to me that if Quebec get's a list of it's TV series, then every provice and territory should have one. I'm in favour of having this be turned into as suggested, an article on French Canadian TV shows. Then we can have one on English Cdn TV shows, and perhaps even Native Canadian TV shows (Aboriginal Peoples Television Network)--Spinboy 21:40, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Can you honestly name even one Canadian province besides Quebec that actually has its own identifiably distinct television culture? Can you honestly name three television shows -- and newscasts don't count -- from New Brunswick that aren't also seen in Alberta? (And then can you name three television shows from Quebec that are?) Bearcat 07:26, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmm... is anyone okay with me merging these articles together now? I haven't seen much consensus for anything. And yes, this should either be grouped by language or all shows should be in one article. WhisperToMe 06:05, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

"Haven't seen much consensus" pretty clearly = "no merge". Bearcat 07:26, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

No, no, but there's consensus to either merge OR retitle the lists, so we do one or the other! WhisperToMe 05:35, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Per Wikipedia policy, "no consensus on what change to implement" automatically equals "no change takes place". Bearcat 07:30, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I agree that a merge is a ridiculous idea. Renaming is not as bad an idea, but not a very useful one. I would rather see List of English-language Canadian television series renamed List of Canadian television series, and have this as a subpage of it. - SimonP 20:05, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

• I guess the discussion is pretty much over by now, but, in any case, let me add my two cents. Although Quebec is part of Canada, popular Quebec sitcoms aimed at the international market are not usually referred to outside North America as "Canadian TV shows" or "French-Canadian TV shows", but rather simply as "Quebec TV shows". That is particularly true in Francophone countries and/or among regular viewers of international French-speaking TV networks like TV5 Monde. Given that Francophones or regular French-language TV viewers are the ones most likely to search for information on Quebec programming in the Wikipedia, I believe the title of article should be the one that is most familiar to them in the first place. I myself was looking for information on Un gars, une fille this morning and began my Wikipedia search using the keywords "Quebec sitcoms" (as opposed to "Canadian sitcoms" or "French-Canadian sitcoms"). BTW, I'm neither Canadian nor Francophone. Mbruno 19:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Result

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. WhiteNight ^{T | @ | C} 03:05, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] A separate article is totally acceptable

It is acceptable to have a specific article for a territorial subdivision of a country, if that subdivision exhibits a specific (distinctive) culture. It has been done for Culture of Texas, Arts and culture of Los Angeles and Culture of New York City for instance. There is no reason for going hysterical because there are "separate" articles about the culture, television and literature of Quebec. Grouping these articles with their Canadian counterparts would either make them tedious to read, fractured, or too long. The fact that cultural divisions don't always follow state/country borders should not come as a complete surprise; no country is ever culturally uniform (except maybe for the tiniest ones, or for the oppressive states). Sometimes it is also convenient to regroup countries or societies across national borders (Latin American music, Native American pottery). We should be flexible and broad in our cultural views. These pages exist because they are relevant and convenient; they are not political statements. -- Hugo Dufort 23:29, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article language

Why is it that there is an assumption that this article relates to French-language television shows while the List of English-language Canadian television series needs to clarify in its own article name that it is in fact an English-language article? NorthernThunder (talk) 17:56, 15 February 2008 (UTC)