Talk:List of Cuban Americans

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This article was nominated for deletion on 24 August 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Archive 1 Dec 2006 - Dec 2007

Contents 1 List Clean-up 1.1 Third opinion 2 Eamon de Valera 3 On XLR8TION'S EDITS

[edit] List Clean-up

I have taken the time to clean-up the list and removed names of individuals who are not verifiable. Entertainers such as Sammy Davis Jr. (who had an unauthorized and unconfirmed bio written on him claiming that he was Cuban) and Fantasia Barrino (family rumors do not make you Cuban; facts only) have been removed. I have also re-added names of several entried that were removed for no apparent reason. Also, names should only appear on the list ONCE to prevent redundancy. I have removed duplicate names and merged their entries to reflect a more more concise and flowing list.

Before adding names to the list, one should first verify if the person in fact is Cuban-American. Anais Nin was remove and will be added to list of Cubans simply because she had no upbringing (or U.S. Citizenship) in the USA. She was born and raised in France. If there is a counterclaim to one's ancestry, than do not add them to the list (e.g. Sammy Davis Jr. claimed he was Puerto Rican when he was alive; unauthorized biograph claims he was Cuban; therefore he should not be included on either lisst of Puerto Ricans and Cubans, allowing reader to use their own judgement to determine which claim in more believable). However, if the person has dual heritage than their inclusion into the list is fine. Please discuss any questions you might have on this list here so that this list can return to being the civilized and verifiable list it once use to be.

• • Anais Nin was a U.S. Citizen see www.who2.com/anaisnin.html.

To recap:

(1) Names should be listed on list ONCE.
(2) Do not add names that can be challenged due to a counterclaim.
(3) Do not add names that do not have verifiable resources. Rumors do not validate a claim.
(4) When added a name, please add a link to the edit summary (as I have done with Ingrid Casares) for verification.
(5) Retain a NPOV when it comes to adding names; no need to andd adjectives that reflect opinion (such as "beautiful") or wealth ("billionaire").
(6) Do not delete names that have been verified.
(7) Do not add names that are extremely non-notable and seem self serving only to the interest of that subject.
(8) Add a short blurb per entry; article will discuss accomplishments or notoriety.
(9) Add only Cubans who were born and raised in the U.S. or have U.S. citizenship. Living in the country for a brief while does not make one American. If I go to Canada and stay there for a week, does that make me Canadian? Use logic here.
(10) Use the "talk page" to dispute any entry or validate an entry's addition if you feel that revert edits will occur as a result of the entry's deletion or inclusion.

--XLR8TION (talk) 16:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

• • • Once again, before adding names please take a look at #2 and #3. Rumors nor unauthorized biographies that do not have any endorsement from families or subjects do not count as valid sources. Fantasia said it was "a family rumor" that she MIGHT be Cuban. She has not whipped out a Cuban flag and gone on a junket of interviews saying she is Cuba. Rumors are simply rumors!

I don't necessarily think that one would have to conduct a "junket of interviews" saying they are "Cuba[n]", in order to be Cuban. Unfortunately, it's not always easy for African-Americans to trace their genealogy like other Americans can. The family of Sally Hemmings was "rumored" to be related to Thomas Jefferson for centuries until DNA testing proved that rumor to be accurate. Barrino, wrote about her Cuban heritage in her autobiography, and she self-indentifies as Cuban. I wasn't aware there was some qualifying litmus test. 65.10.91.194 (talk) 15:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• • • Quoting her own words "Family rumor has it that my father's family has Cuban lineage, which would explain my last name – kind of unusual for a black southern man from North Carolina." RUMORS ARE NOT VALID SOURCE OF INFO.[1]

It's an issue of semantics. You'd be right to say that a rumor wouldn't be a valid source of info if it came from a secondary source, but this is a "family rumor" that she herself believes and even included in her autobiography. In that case it is a reputable source because it's coming from Barrino herself. If it was a rumor, from say a gossip blog then it wouldn't considered a reputable source? Do you understand the difference? 72.144.39.229 (talk) 04:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Sammy Davis Junior did say "in his own words" that he was Puerto Rican. An unauthorized bio printed after claims otherwise! This is a counterclaim and can nix one another. Therefore a NPOV should be taken in this case and the name should not appear on this list or the list of Puerto Ricans.

What's your definition of an "unauthorized" bio? What constitutes an "authorized" bio in your opinion? This biography was written by a Washington Post journalist who conducted interviews with hundreds of people close to Davis, including his own mother. Do you have any envidence that this book isn't a reputable source for information on Mr. Davis? 65.10.91.194 (talk) 15:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• • "Sammy Davis Jr. used to tell a joke: "My mother was born in San Juan. So I'm Puerto Rican, Jewish, colored and married to a white woman. When I move into a neighborhood, people start running four ways at the same time." Once again there is a counterclaim. [2]

Sigh. I noticed you avoided answering the question again. Instead you offered a joke as a counterclaim? I'm confused as to how you could think a joke is a reputable source and a biographer who conducted 200+ interviews is not? 72.144.39.229 (talk) 04:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Now take a look at #8. Adding a two line blurb for a en entry takes up two much space on this list. The entry's article will discuss their accomplishments. Simply add a small desfription and even one of their works (film, television, book, etc.) that will give the person who takes a look at this page a "brief" summary of who that is person. Milestones and other accomplishments will appear in the article.

Again, I have to respectfully disagree. The "blurb" is as breif as possible while still highlighting an achievement that is notable. Being the first Hispanic anything is worth mentioning. 65.10.91.194 (talk) 15:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• • A list is simply a list, not a biography. Keep the blurb short. ONCE AGAIN, the article will discuss the subject in detail.

ONCE AGAIN, you are not the arbitrator of this list so please stop ordering me around because you do not own this article.

Finally, regarding Bacardi family, that family is multinational, holding many diferent national passports. Just like the Braganzas (Portuguese & Brazilian), the Borbons (French & Spanish), and the Bronfmans (U.S. and Canadian), they like the Bacardi family are an international families. A counterclaim on this fact can nix their entry on this list.

You're not offering any new arguments here. We're just going to keep going back and forth on this until you can offer any facts to support your claim that they're a "mulitnational family". You keep going back to that and never answering any of my questions. 65.10.91.194 (talk) 15:54, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

• • The founder of the company was born in Sitges, Spain. He moved to Cuba, however many of his family members also emigrated to the Bahamas, the U.S. and Puerto Rico and established firms there. Bacardi rum in Puerto Rico is listed as "PUERTO RICAN RUM". It doesn't say "CUBAN RUM'. Should they also be added to the List of Puerto Ricans??? Counterclaims nix entry.

First off the family didn't move out of Cuba until after the revolution. Prior to that they had been in Cuba for decades. They emigrated to the United States, hence their inclusion in a list of Cuban Americans. Secondly they didn't establish a "firm" in Puerto Rico, they established a distillery to make it easier to do business with the mainland United States. But I don't really see how this is relevant ... the issue here is the Bacardi family not the Bacardi Corporation. I think you keep confusing the two as one entity. So again, I'll ask you a simple question ... do you have proof to support your claim that the Bacardi family is not Cuban-American? 72.144.39.229 (talk) 04:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Please discuss your views here before making unconstructive edits. Discussion is the key to civilized debate. --XLR8TION (talk) 18:23, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

• • Once again, using logic here. I have provided two sources (Barrino and Davis). Show me your sources or else they remain off list! Rumors and unauthorized bios are not valid sources.--XLR8TION (talk) 21:59, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

See unfortunately that's the problem here. You see this as a "debate". It shouldn't be a debate. It should be a discussion trying to reach consensus. It seems like you just argue for the sake of arguing. 72.144.39.229 (talk) 04:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• I'm going to throw in my $.02 worth here, as I was asked to review this by User:XLR8TION. You both make good arguments, however, as with EVERY article on Wikipedia, there needs to be some sort of reliable source to verify the information being entered is true. Wildthing61476 (talk) 22:06, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I wish that would be suffecient enough (scroll up and you'll see I've included references to support my arguments in previous posts) but unfortunately he continues to revert even when I add references. 72.144.39.229 (talk) 04:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

• • • It apparently seems you're ignorant, therefore I have removed all disputed entries from this list and have requested a lock. Please do not re-add names until an administrator(s) provide feedback. Please be aware that you have reverted the page two times already.--XLR8TION (talk) 18:54, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
      • Don't call me ignorant please. It's pretty juvenile of you that you can't have a discussion without reverting to name calling. 72.144.39.229 (talk) 21:21, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion

The list should be limited to individuals that reliable sources state are Cuban-American. Entries requiring inferences, induction or the correlation of several sources to qualify for the list should not be added. Individuals for whom multiple reliable sources provided contradicting claims should not be listed. For the latter, it may be appropriate to have a "Disputed" section with each entry referencing the contradictory claims, but that is a matter for local consensus to decide. If consensus is not forthcoming in the discussion here, I would recommend seeking further assistance from dispute resolution. Vassyana (talk) 16:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

The problem is XLR8TION labels every source I add in unreliable. He doesn't offer a reason why he thinks a source is unreliable, I'm just expected to differ to him like if he was some wise elder statesman. Is there a place on Wikipedia where you could submit a source to see if it passes muster in the community? Because this back and forth bickering with XLR8TION is going nowhere fast. Also, I wouldn't be opposed to your idea of a "Disputed" section for someone like Fantasia Barrino. But I don't see who else it could possibly apply to. Sammy Davis, Jr. and Eamon de Valera aren't disputed, there's evidence to support their inclusion on this list. InMySpecialPlace24 (talk) 23:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Eamon de Valera

• There is no solid fact that Eamon de Valera's father was Cuban. A baptismal certificate simply is not sufficient enough to challenge a counterclaim that he was a Spanish national. One has to remember Cuba was part of the Spanish dominion until 1898. A simple baptism in a place does not give that child nationality.--XLR8TION (talk) 04:23, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand your argument. Are you saying those born in Cuba before the Spanish-American War were not Cuban? 65.10.91.194 (talk) 15:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] On XLR8TION'S EDITS

• • Why is this article always being locked because of XLR8TION? De Valera was a Cuban as was Anais Nin. There needs to be something done about XLR8TION's random and unsupported decisions to delete names from this list, and cause it to be locked for no reason other than because he has a disagreement. Why should we trust XLR8TION rather than an ancient document such as an undipsuted baptismal certificate, which because it is an ancient document, would be admitted as proof of what it says in any court of law in the United States? Also, why is the Bacardi family no longer on this list, are they no longer Cuban because XLR8TION does not think so? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.83.19.141 (talk) 04:22, 18 January 2008 (UTC)