Talk:List of Chinese inventions

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the List of Chinese inventions article.
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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 6 April 2007. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

This page should be much longer than it is.

Contents

[edit] Aquaculture

Not sure where I can put this in the list of inventions. Thought I'd mention it though. Edson88888 (talk) 08:10, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion disucssion

Please discuss this issue in the following link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_Chinese_inventions

[edit] Removed Celestial Globe

That was invented independently in China, but it was first invented by the Greeks -intranetusa (long time ago) Intranetusa 20:33, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I put it back to the others section as "discovered separately after other civilizations" is mentioned. --Leo 16:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I removed the "so-called Four Great Inventions" into just "Four Great Inventions"

ImSoCool

Um, why is this page up for deletion?--PericlesofAthens 10:37, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Some people abused the deletion policy. I cleaned it up --Leo 16:13, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with this article

This article (like many lists) would probably be better as a category. Alternatively, it should be called Chinese Inventions or possibly Early Chinese Inventions. It should conentrate on inventions made in China independently of the West or of the Islamic World. It could also usefully indicate which inventions diffused to the West (for example, paper) and which were independently invented in China and elsewhere. It would also be useful if dates could be provided, as this may help those of us who are not experts on the subject to spot items that should not appear. Some of the articles in the History of Technology series might provide a useful model, for exampleRenaissance Technology - though that article is very incomplete at present. Peterkingiron 22:10, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

You have very good points. We simply need more volunteers to do what you have suggested.:-) The concentration concern may be resolved by using different sections for the inventions like it is right now. --Leo 16:58, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
You can't spend much time at CfD if you think this would survive as a category, especially without an article! The article needs to be improved, along the lines you suggest. Johnbod 13:40, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] football/soccer

I've read on another wiki article saying football/soccer was actually first played in china. Should we add it into the list? 203.54.196.103 13:27, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure there is List of countries who claim to have invented football. No - oh well. Johnbod 13:38, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested renaming

This seems to be a list of ancient Chinese inventions rather than Chinese inventions in general. Should it be renamed to reflect that? JoshuaZ 23:23, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

No, because many of them now are medieval and early modern.--PericlesofAthens 09:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] China invented everything it seems

I've noticed over the last few months of reading general interest in wiki, that china invented everything on the planet. Including soccer now, apparently. In every case, someone always seems to produce some obscure reference for each chinese innovation, usually written centuries after the fact, by surprise surprise: a Han chinese! Seems more like oral tradition and good old fashioned racial arrogance, you find everywhere else. CJ DUB 01:57, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Your idea of what constitutes "everything" seems to be pretty narrow. Spare us the spam, if you have a reference then put it up for discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.205.62.146 (talk) 00:55, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Deleted spam by random retard and "teeth" placed in the invention list —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.196.250.27 (talk) 19:51, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Compass

Shouldn't the compass really fall under the "Other inventions" column? From my own knowledge and the wikipedia article on the compass, there is a strong case that it was simultaneous European/Chinese invention.--Scott 18:02, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

no, i think the compass was taken by the europeans. we need a stronger evidence instead of wiki articles, since wikiarticles may not be the best to resolve distrupts of these types. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.205.160 (talk) 00:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The compas was not taken by the europeans it was independently invented in Europe

Arguments pro independent invention:

   * The navigational needle in Europe points invariably north, whereas nearly always south in China.
   * The European compass showed from the beginning sixteen basic divisions, not twenty-four as in China.[21]
   * The apparent failure of the Arabs to function as possible intermediaries between East and West due to the earlier recorded appearance of the compass in Europe (1190)[18] than in the Muslim world (1232, 1242, or 1282).[19] [20]
   * The fact that the European compass rather soon developed from the magnetized needle (1190)[18] into the dry compass (by 1300)[22] may indicate that the prior invention of the needle-and-bowl device was also done independently.

Arguments contra independent invention:

   * The temporal priority of the Chinese navigational compass (1117) as opposed to the European (1190).[18]
   * The common shape of the early compass as a magnetized needle floating in a bowl of water.[23]  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.103.201.34 (talk) 13:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I understand that it was invented in China and diffused via Arab traders, and that is what the compass article says too. I don't think mesoamerican lodestones equal a compass. Yunfeng (talk) 02:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some of this inventions the chinese didnt even do

First of all Matches, it clearly says that it had a predecessor in Egypt which used sulfur, Horse collar because it was in Ancient chaldea, land mine because happened by Rome because it was a mine that romans used to trap humans with spikes, rudder because Egypt used a oar as that was used as rudder, Vaccination because the chinese did Inoculation and edward jenner made first vaccine, bitumious coke and countless others i cannot name because then it would waste time. I am asking that people should not put inventions without solid evidence and that they should note where they get from, and that book that was used as reference can not have True factual evidence (Canu44 07:52, 30 August 2007 (UTC))


there might be arguements among the inventions, but note on a few things: oars and rudders aren't the same. it's been down in ages that you would use an oar to steer, which in effect would act as a rudder, but again, it's not a rudder. and as for landmines, there would be also disagreement amoung information in the wiki articles. note this: it is known that romans used the traps, but it's not until nearly the first century until romes have a strong, organized army to start using traps of such. so i would put landmines under "other inventions" as it most likely was co-invented. but as for the modern landmine, chinese wins. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.205.160 (talk) 01:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

all i am saying is that some of this inventions shouldnt be here. and that we should proofread this page to make sure no Unsupportive inventions are placed. if we do this then this page wont have to alsmot face deletion again (Canu44 00:05, 1 September 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Inventions

There are a flaw in the list of chinese inventions. Read about the various inventions and you will note that some of them also where invented in other civilisations as well. I recomend that the list of specific items is removed.

The first computer is dated back to 1500 by Wilhelm Schickard. So wheres the proof that china lagged behind Europe in the 1700th ??

Well, I guess it means that by 1700 you can surely tell China lagged behind, but about 1500 there can be arguments. Something that you can say a full scale computer probably are Babbage's machines, which were invented around 1700-1800. Temur 16:58, 24 September 2007 (UTC)


Still wrong. Greek - democracy. Roman empire - Republic. China lagged behind this in many ways.

The Roman Empire contributed its form of government, which influences various constitutions including those of most European countries and many former European colonies. In the United States, for example, the framers of the Constitution remarked, in creating the Presidency, that they wanted to inaugurate an "Augustan Age." The modern world also inherited legal thinking from Roman law, codified in Late Antiquity. Governing a vast territory, the Romans developed the science of public administration to an extent never before conceived nor necessary, creating an extensive civil service and formalized methods of tax collection. The western world today derives its intellectual history from the Greeks, but it derives its methods of living, ruling and governing from those of the Romans.

Even the modern public schoolsystem is related to the roman empire.

The chinese civilisation is a static civ.

In the early 20th century, before china had much contact with the West, the condition and living standards of most Chinese peasants was not much different as it was 3000 years before. If China never had contact with the West, there is little evidence to suppose that the condition of these peasants would be any better 3000 years from now.


—Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.103.201.34 (talk) 09:39, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

So what is your point? I don't think a race between East and West will make anything better. Temur 10:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Also, the comment that "chinese civilisation is a static civ" is a mind-bogglingly broad-brush statement.
Bathrobe 10:57, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the world civilization today is on a wrong path. Capitalism and race for money don't make life much meaningful. Did all these begin from the Greek or Roman civs? Is the mankind happier now than 3000 years ago? Gantuya eng 11:25, 3 October 2007 (UTC)


Don´t lie! Tell the truth! This article is full of nationalistic substance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.103.201.34 (talk) 11:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Please be precise. I could not find anything in this article stating that China discovered democracy before Greece or that they invented Republic before Romans. I can surely tell you that many people (including me) here are strongly against nationalistic bias. Give us specific statements and references against them. Temur 19:01, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


What made china on the same level as Europe before 1600? How did China fall behind? With what?

If you have more information, please feel free to add into the article. If you are serious, please register and leave your signature in talk pages. Temur 20:46, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
This person is obviously not serious. A western person complaining about eastern nationalistic substance with really bad English? Come on now. Benjwong 21:51, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

So because I'm not english, I'm not serious? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.103.201.34 (talk) 13:04, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


This discussion moved here from Talk:China at this stage


I've discovered this article and found that there are many inventions in the list that I doubt of being Chinese. For example stirrups and calendar. Gantuya eng 23:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I think you need to come up with references to dispute the mention of "Chinese Calendar" here, hence, it is not like listing other major calendars such as Gregorian calendar, Jewish calendar, Islamic calendar and Hindu calendar... You can read references and encyclopedias such as Britannica, I doubt any would argue the Chinese calendar as not being Chinese calendar?--Balthazarduju 00:46, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


Vaccination India or China! This is nationalistic crap all without any real evidence! What has the Chinese contributed with?? Music?? Art?? Perhaps noodles? Yes that’s it! NOODLES!

Is there any explanation for removal of the compass from the Chinese inventions? At school they taught that compass was invented in China. Did it change since then? Gantuya eng 13:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


The compas was not taken by the europeans it was independently invented in Europe

Arguments pro independent invention:

   * The navigational needle in Europe points invariably north, whereas nearly always south in China.
   * The European compass showed from the beginning sixteen basic divisions, not twenty-four as in China.[21]
   * The apparent failure of the Arabs to function as possible intermediaries between East and West due to the earlier recorded appearance of the compass in Europe (1190)[18] than in the Muslim world (1232, 1242, or 1282).[19] [20]
   * The fact that the European compass rather soon developed from the magnetized needle (1190)[18] into the dry compass (by 1300)[22] may indicate that the prior invention of the needle-and-bowl device was also done independently.

Arguments contra independent invention:

   * The temporal priority of the Chinese navigational compass (1117) as opposed to the European (1190).[18]
   * The common shape of the early compass as a magnetized needle floating in a bowl of water.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.226.71.112 (talk) 20:59, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Of all things to pick on.... Chinese calendar and compass was singled out??? How can I take these seriously other than to accept them as laughable weak vandalism. Benjwong 22:20, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi, Benjwong! I understand your argument concerning the compass, but I couldn't understand your revert of my grammatical and stylistical corrections together with what you call "laughable weak vandalism". In the first sentence, the word "great" was repeated, and I felt it would be better to change it with another adjective. I think "significant" is more pin-pointing than "great". I don't claim this is the best replacement, but I hoped someone would find an even better adjective. But I didn't expect it to be reverted in such a wrathful manner. In the second sentence I changed the word to plural. The same word is in plural in the previous sentence and you don't identify that as an error, but when I make it plural, you revert it. Is there any rational explanation? I interpret it as a personal attack. I am not going to participate in your argument about the compass, it's not my expertise. But I would be thankful if someone furthers my grammatical and stylistical corrections instead of reverting them. Gantuya eng 01:00, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Oh that last comment wasn't for you. It was for IP: 194.103.201.34 who deleted the compass. It didn't occur to me until now, that you could have mistakened it. I happened to revert your edit thinking it may not be a necessary grammar change. But the comment is most definitely not related to any of your edits. Please ignore it. Benjwong 02:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Be sensitive towards the feelings of your peers. Don't bulk revert different edits under the same umbrella. Gantuya eng 02:43, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Will do. But please understand the sheer volume of vandalism and rants that we deal with daily. Some are dismissed quicker than others. Benjwong 03:58, 6 October 2007 (UTC)


Paper money originated in two forms: drafts, which are receipts for value held on account, and "bills", which were issued with a promise to convert at a later date.

Money is based on the coming to pre-eminence of some commodity as payment. The oldest monetary basis was for agricultural capital: cattle and grain. In Ancient Mesopotamia, drafts were issued against stored grain as a unit of account. A "drachma" was a weight of grain. Japan's feudal system was based on rice per year – koku.

At the same time, legal codes enforced the payment for injury in a standardized form, usually in precious metals. The development of money then comes from the role of agricultural capital and precious metals having a privileged place in the economy.

Such drafts were used for giro systems of banking as early as Ptolemaic Egypt in the first century BC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.226.71.112 (talk) 14:55, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

BeltDrive The earliest was the flat belt, used with line shafting. It is a simple system of power transmission that was well suited to its time in history. The Industrial Revolution soon demanded more from the system, as flat belt pulleys need to be carefully aligned to prevent the belt from slipping off. The flat belt also tends to slip on the pulley face when heavy loads are applied. In practice, such belts were often given a half-twist before joining the ends (forming a Möbius strip), so that wear was evenly distributed on both sides of the belt.

Round belts are a circular cross section belt designed to run in a pulley with a circular (or near circular) groove. They are for use in low torque situations and may be purchased in various lengths or cut to length and joined, either by a staple, gluing or welding (in the case of polyurethane). The early sewing machines utilized a leather belt, joined either by a metal staple or glued, to great effect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.226.71.112 (talk) 14:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Cannon: History of cannon From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Cannon are large tubular firearms designed to fire a heavy projectile over a long distance. They were first used in China and Europe...... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.226.71.112 (talk) 15:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

ChainDrive: The oldest known application and illustrated depiction of a chain drive date to the written horological treatise of the Song Dynasty Chinese engineer Su Song (1020-1101 AD), who used it to operate the armillary sphere of his astronomical clock tower. An earlier endless drive may have been invented much earlier by the Greek Philon of Byzantium (3rd century BC) in a magazine arcuballista, but it did not transmit power continuously.[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.226.71.112 (talk) 15:07, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The use of coke as a fuel was pioneered in 17th century England in response to the ever-growing problem of European deforestation. Wood was becoming increasingly scarce and expensive, and coal's fumes, particularly smoke and sulfur compounds, disqualified it from many applications, including cooking and iron smelting. In 1603, Sir Henry Platt suggested that coal might be charred in a manner analogous to the way charcoal is produced from wood. This process was not put into practice, however, until 1642, when coke was used for roasting malt in Derbyshire. Coal cannot be used in brewing, because its sulfurous fumes would impart a foul taste to the resulting beer. Perhaps more significantly, in 1709, Abraham Darby set up a coke-fired blast furnace to produce cast iron. Coke's superior crushing strength allowed blast furnaces to become taller and larger. The ensuing availability of inexpensive iron was one of the factors leading to the Industrial Revolution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.226.71.112 (talk) 15:12, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Mesoamerica

The find of an Olmec hematite artifact, fitted with a sighting mark and found in experiment as fully operational as a compass, has led the American astronomer John Carlson after radiocarbon dating to conclude that "the Olmec may have discovered and used the geomagnetic lodestone compass earlier than 1000 BC".[1] Carlson suggests that the Olmecs may have used such devices for directional orientation of the dwellings of the living and the interments of the dead.[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.226.71.112 (talk) 15:14, 6 October 2007 (UTC)


The earliest date for the crossbow is from the 5th century BC,[7] from the Greek world. This was called the gastraphetes, which could store more energy than the Greek bows, and was used in the Siege of Motya in 397 BC. This was a key Carthaginian stronghold in Sicily, as described in the 1st century AD by Heron of Alexandria in his book Belopoeica.[8] This date for the introduction of the crossbow in the Mediterranean is not accepted without doubt because of the temporal difference between writer and event and the lack of other sources stating the same. At least Alexander's siege of Tyre in 332 BC provides reliable sources for the use of these weapons by the Greek besiegers.[9] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.226.71.112 (talk) 15:20, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Please, we need to analyze 1 item at a time. Not 15 inventions across multi-cultures and different names all together at once. We need some research capacity on top of the existing articles. Benjwong 15:52, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Abacus

The Abacus article gives quite a different impression on where it first appeared, as do most western sources. I even wonder what the rationale is for placing it under "indepently developed" - couldn't it just have been inspired by Muslim or Indian traders? Yaan 12:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)


The first abacus was almost certainly based on a flat stone covered with sand or dust. Words and letters were drawn in the sand; eventually numbers were added[2] and pebbles used to aid calculations. The Babylonians used this dust abacus as early as 2400 BC.[3] The origin of the counter abacus with strings is obscure, but India, Mesopotamia or Egypt are seen as probable points of origin.[4] China played an essential part in the development and evolution of the abacus.[5] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.226.71.112 (talk) 14:51, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

If I am correct, the person referenced from Encyclopedia Britannica, but the original source may have come from the 1914 transcript "The Beginnings of Libraries" By Ernest Cushing Richardson. The wording is similar that they described sand pebbles. The word Abacus was thrown in, but it sounds more like a description than an actual claim of the invention. Benjwong 16:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can there be a more concise listing?

The listing of "other inventions" is profoundly vague. Why group 4 different categories together? Why even mention things that the chinese received purely from outside sources? There should be a much more complete, well managed list of chinese developments, which I've yet to find- along with how these were transmitted globally, and whether or not places like Europe got them purely from the Chinese.

This really needs the attention of people with some remote expertise, which I guess is somewhat there when Needham's work, which is profoundly rare in private collections was cited- not like the arrogant bigoted ass who was crying about chinese nationalism, yet then went onto say that they only invented noodles.

And besides, why are things like the cannon and porcelain listed under "other inventions"? Who developed these independently? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.244.130.174 (talk) 20:33, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] This Article Is Absurd

It needs about 100 fact tags. Hot air balloons? That may be a *claimed* Chinese invention. Alexwoods (talk) 20:00, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I have started taking out the patently asinine items in the list, and fact-tagging the questionable ones. Yunfeng (talk) 21:33, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
It is pretty ridiculous. Details, references... At least link some things! Cretog8 (talk) 00:13, 5 June 2008 (UTC)