Talk:List of Chelsea F.C. managers
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[edit] Columns
What do the columns F, A stand for? --Boguslav (talk) 01:26, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
And do the 'Matches include domestic cups and European competions?--Boguslav (talk) 01:29, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Stats
For the anonymous editor(s) who keep changing the career stats of Mourinho and Grant, please cite a source. Per Soccerbase (here and here) the current ones are correct. SteveO (talk) 02:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- That source you are referring to records losses on penalty shootouts as draws. This shouldn't be allowed because, for example, if the UEFA Champions League final was truly a "draw", then neither team would have been awarded the trophy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.0.22 (talk) 22:03, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- Matches decided on penalty shoot-outs are always officially recorded as draws, because that's what they are. The teams have finished level after 120 minutes of football, and have only been separated by an extracurricular exercise. That's why successful kicks are never recorded in a player's stats. FIFA, UEFA, soccerbase etc all record them as draws, and so should Wikipedia. Edit: note how FIFA records England's matches against Portugal [1] or Englandfootballonline records England's matches against West Germany. [2] SteveO (talk) 22:22, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
They are not ALWAYS officially recorded as draws because websites such as the BBC record a penalty shootout as either a win or a loss under a manager's profile. After all, a loss on penalties is still a loss. Logically, if Chelsea had "drawn" with Manchester United in the UEFA Champions League Final, then how come there was an "official" victor? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.0.22 (talk) 01:35, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
- Penalties are a tiebreaker designed to see who progresses in a competition. The result of the shoot-out does not change the final score at full-time, which is why the result at full time is what goes into the record books. Both FIFA and UEFA recognise them as such, and the stance of football's major sanctioning bodies should be followed, irrespective of how the BBC records them. Chelsea's overall Champions League record on uefa.com records the final as a draw (Chelsea's 15 losses are Hertha Berlin, Marseilles, Lazio, Barcelona (thrice), Besiktas, Monaco, Porto, Bayern Munich, Liverpool (twice), Real Betis, Werder Bremen and Fenerbahce). SteveO (talk) 02:20, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Even though a penalty shootout does not change the final score, it does change the final result. In a cup competition, the winners progress and the losers do not. Sometimes, a penalty shootout is required to figure out who the winners and losers are. For example, in an FA Cup semi-final, even if the match ends in a "draw", only ONE team progresses while the other one goes home. Surely, you can not call this a draw. A draw occurs when absolutely NOTHING is able to separate the competitors. In this case, there is something that separates them and it's the penalty shootout. Just beacuse FIFA and UEFA "officially" record them as draws does not mean that Wikipedia and every other website in the world should do the same. We'll only be fooling ourselves as well as the readers by changing a loss into an "official draw". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.0.22 (talk) 23:08, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
- No a penalty shoot-out does not change the result. If the teams end the match 1-1 after 120 minutes of football, then the result is a 1-1 draw. A penalty shoot-out is not a football match, it is an additional controlled exercise to decide who progresses in a tournament. That is why goals scored in shoot-outs are never recorded in a player's tally. If we accept that shoot-outs change the result then surely shoot-out goals should also be counted. But they never are. Any credible stats site will say Frank Lampard scored 20 goals last season, not 21. For added confusion, what happens when a team wins after 120 minutes to finish level on aggregate and then loses the shoot-out. Does that count as a win or a loss? FIFA and UEFA are football's official controlling organisations. If you disagree with their rules then that's your choice, but Wikipedia is not the place to do it. SteveO (talk) 00:18, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
"For added confusion, what happens when a team wins after 120 minutes to finish level on aggregate and then loses the shoot-out." This is something I never thought of and I must say I can not argue against it. Therefore, I'll fix the career stats of Mourinho and Grant. On a side note, how come John Hollins is not mentioned in the Notable Managers section on the Chelsea F.C. page? He did win a Full Members Cup. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.0.22 (talk) 01:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
- Not sure tbh, I'll add it if you want as the page is currently protected. I'll also add a footnote stating that draws were lost on penalties. SteveO (talk) 01:29, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
I'd like that, just make sure you also include the Full Members Cup that Bobby Campbell won. Thank you for your contribution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.79.0.22 (talk) 01:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
