Talk:List of Catalans

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This list should include only individuals who were born within the Provence of Catalunya, Spain. Andorrans, French Catalans, and decedents of Catalan immigrants to Latin America should not be included unless independent proof can be furnished that the person holds Spanish Citizenship and identifies him or herself as Catalan.

[edit] James I and Peter III of Aragon

They were of course catalan since they were the Counts of Barcelona, leaders of Catalonia. At that period Spain didn't exist but Catalonia was a former part of it. Therefore we could consider they had "Spanish Citizenship" and of course they identified themselves as Catalan (for example in the ca:El Llibre dels feits). Xtv 17 February 2007 (UTC)

What is you point of view? Only to be Counts of barcelona? Well, they also were KINGS OF VALENCIA, leaders of Valencia, and nobody considers them as valencians. James I was first KING of Aragon, then Count of Barcelona. He was the 4th generation of Aragonese kings from the House of Barcelona. "La vaca es de donde nace o de donde pace"?. James I is none of those cases, being born in Montpellier (France), from a Aragonese father and a French mother never had his official residence in Barcelona (being this one Zaragoza when not battling the moors). The way you say James I was catalan could be used to say that king Juan Carlos is french because the origins of his family. In addition, King Juan Carlos has this same title "count of Barcelona" after his father died. Could we say that King Juan Carlos is Catalan? I guess no. A king his from his Kingdom. Juan Carlos I of Spain, James (Jaime or Jaume) I of Aragon. On the other hand, I don't think claiming someone to be from a territory that did not exist yet is accurate. Pelayo was born in what know is Spain, but Spain did not exist yet. So, for history, he is know as Pelayo of Asturias. Same happens to James I. He cannot be called James I of Catalonia, as Catalonia did not exist. So, I invite you to consider him and Peter III as history says, Aragonese. You just have to see their articles, James I of Aragon and Peter III of Aragon. Let me know your response. Regards, Maurice27 19:45, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

  • You say that we can not consider them catalans because the territory didn't exist. Then you should erase in List_of_Spaniards#Leaders_and_politicians all Ancient, Medieval and Modern (except Charles III) people. And yes, Pelayo is considered there spaniard, even spain didn't exist (even a Caliph of Cordoba is considered spanish!)
  • I know Catalonia didn't exist officialy with this name, but it was already a common name to call Catalonia all the territories governated by the Count of Barcelona.
  • I think you should consider them more Catalan than Aragonese (or at least as much): remember that the dinasty is the House of Barcelona. Ramon Berenguer IV from Barcelona married with Petronila of Aragón. In XXI century doesen't matter if it is a man or a woman, but in XII century yes. Look at Counts_of_Barcelona: Peter II of Aragon is not considered castilian only because her mother was from Castilia, for example.
  • Considering Montpellier in the XII century as a part of France is not historicaly correct. It is like considering Maria_Goeppert-Mayer as Polish in spite of German.
  • A king is from his Kingdom. Then Elizabeth II is also Australian. Or James I is Valencian, Aragonese and Balearic but not Catalan?
  • In the articles I don't see that they consider them Aragonese. At least I see they consider them as much Aragonese as Valentian. The sentence "Aragonese and Valencian Royalty" means the Royality from Aragon and Valencia. But it adds: House of Barcelona. Juan Carlos is count of Barcelona, but he is not from the House of Barcelona. And even if Borbón came from French, his dinasy has nothing to do with France since centuries ago (even the name changed from Bourbon). James I's case is complitely different. His grandfather was still born in Catalonia and he was the governor of Catalonia (as the territoy governed by the count of Barcelona which later was called so).
  • I don't know if the official residence of James I as a King was in Saragossa, but the official residence as a Count of Barcelona was the Palau Reial Major from Barcelona. He even extended and renovated it.

To sum up, I think it is difficult to determine if somebody is from here or from there. And even more when we speak about 800 years ago. As I showed you, James I is considered spaniard and was born in Montpelier. But came from Catalan heritage and spoke Catalan (we wrote his biography in Catalan). He was the king of Valencia, Aragon and Balears, lord of Barcelona and Montpelier. Did he have a Passport? no. So, I think there is no problem to consider him Catalan or Aragonese, Valentian or from Montpelier.--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 14:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

The point you made about Pelayo being in the spaniards list is a good one. I'm not saying all the articles in wikipedia are correct. He is as much wrongly added to that list as James I in this one. Pelayo died without knowing what would be Spain. As you said, why consider James I catalan and not Valencian? My grand father was from Andalusia, but I'm not andalus myself. Nobody denies his use of catalan, but if James is First of Aragon it is because he is not from Barcelona, Valencia, Majorca... My point is, that to claim James as catalan, the title of Count is not important (he also was king of valencia), the residence of the Palau Reial in BCN is not important (as he also had one in zaragoza, another in Valencia, another in Palma and another in Montpellier) and finally our "Pelayo" point, being from somewhere which still does not exist. In fact I will take a look to that spaniards list. I think everybody who reads their articles may perfectly understand their ties with the Catalan territories. Again, I call you to leave and respect the history as the title says... King of Aragon. Let me know your response. Regards, Maurice27 20:42, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
But not only don Pelayo. Till XVIII century (Philip V), Spain doesen't exist as a common state. So, I thing it is not bad taking them belonging to the country in which their country will become.
You say that if he is the first from Aragon, he is from Aragon. I complitley disagree. This means only that this is the most important title, and nothing else. Charles V is German? the most important title is the Emperor one (so that in all Wikipedias except Spanish, Basque, and Galician is recognized as Charles V, not Charles I). And he was born in Belgium! But you will agree he was Spanish (even if, as I said before, Spain still didn't exist as a country). And Philip V of Spain, was or wasn't Spanish? As I said, it is difficult and maybe quite subjective to determine the nationality of a person. And of course, we can consider some people to have more than one nacionality, as all the immigrants who went from Andalusia to Catalonia and after 40 years living there, they considered themselves as Catalan as Andalusian, without needing to have a document to prove it (do you remember the sentence is Catalan who lives and works in Catalonia?).
So, what do I claim for him to be Catalan: he came from the House of Barcelona, had a residence and lived in Barcelona, he spoke Catalan and he wrote his biography in Catalan (why not in Aragonese or Spanish if he was from Aragon?). I think this is enough to consider him Catalan, and if you want to consider him also Aragonese, I won't have anything against it. Wishes,--Xtv - (my talk) - (que dius que què?) 14:59, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latin American of full or partial Catalan descent

Should Latin Americans of full or partial Catalan descent be listed in this page? There are well known Latin Americans with Catalan surnames I don't know if they should be added.

Here are a list of Latin Americans of Catalan descent that could be added in this List:

  • Ricardo Montaner - an Argentine-born Venezuelan singer, I believe his mother is of Catalan descent, Montaner is his maternal surname.
  • Juan Soler - an Argentine-born Mexican actor, his father is of Catalan descent.
  • Shakira - an internationally well-known Colombian singer, her mother is of partial Catalan descent, Ripoll is her maternal surname.
  • Luis Batlle Berres - Uruguayan President 1947-1951, great great grandson of Catalan settlers to Uruguay.
  • Irma Flaquer - a Guatemalan journalist, Catalan father.

Lehoiberri (talk) 22:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)