Talk:List of Bosniaks

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Its very good that Emir Kusturica is not on the list. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.226.186.132 (talk) 04:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


Just 1 woman out of 38 Bosniaks. Seems a bit one sided.

Well, you can fix it yourself by adding more important Bosniak women to the list. :-) bogdan | Talk 16:45, 11 September 2005 (UTC)

Can we please consider merging this with list of Bosnians and I see it pointless to have a separate list for Bosniaks. Plus this list is rather empty.

Strongly disagree. Big difference between "Bosnians" and "Bosniaks". Live Forever 04:05, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I strongly disagree as well. the president of serbia is born in bosnia, does that mean we should put him on the list too? along with several croatian government ministers and zoran dindic that also comes from travnik in bosnia?

I removed Mehmed Pasa since he actually isn't a Bosniak. Should we keep Kulin Ban? HolyRomanEmperor 14:25, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Kulin Ban should be taken out since its ahistorical to describe any bosnian ruler from that period as a "Bosniak" "Croat" or "Serb". However, Mehmed Pasa should be put back in. Live Forever 17:57, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Yes; but do not forget that Kulin Ban identifed himself as a ruler of Bošnjani. I see no reason to put here Sokolović. In fact, it would be wrong; since it would make the reader think that Bosniaks are Serb converts! Mehmed had only one connection with the current Bosniaks - religion and place of birth. It is not appropriate to consider him that way just because of that; I think. What do you think? HolyRomanEmperor 12:39, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

The List of Serbs includes even people who only just slightly declared themselves as Serbs; while the List of Croatians includes all Croatia's ethnic minorities. Should not the List of Bosniaks do a similiar thing and include... say... all Bosnians of Islamic faith? Please respond to this idea. --HolyRomanEmperor 13:30, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

You should stop spreading anachronism. Radovan Karadžić did the same thing and where is he now, in the woods of Serbia or Montenegro. I am not interested in Serb mythology.--Emir Arven 17:09, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Progress is much easier when you don't call for villains and bad-guys and when you don't resort to personal insults.

Then, I am removing all non-Bosniak Muslims of Bosnia (since you think that we should keep a pro-Bosniak list). --HolyRomanEmperor 17:12, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, then we can change the list of Serbs, taking out Bosniaks and Croats...--Emir Arven 17:17, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Now you're talking my language! :) I am glad that we could find a mutual language (finally). Let's start with Ivo Andrić shall we, my friend? --HolyRomanEmperor 17:29, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
As I said before, I think you are pathetic...--Emir Arven 17:33, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Please stop referring to personal insults after you manage to achieve communication. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:43, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I dont attack you, I said my opinion, that doesnt have to be a fact, that is my POV, because you already lied about me for a few times. --Emir Arven 17:53, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I admitted to everyone that I was being rough and almost lying about you (even to RxStrange Love and defended you in the fact of User:Izehar) I even APOLOGIZED to you (which by the way, you deleted or archived). I now said that I want to work with you (and cooperation with you according to your proposal), you rebuffed what you said previously, and against resorted to personal attacks. haven't you ever heard of white peace? --HolyRomanEmperor 18:12, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Non-Bosniaks

Mehmed Pasa Sokolovic was a Serb. While I removed Tvrtko and Stephen II because there is no evidence on their Bosniak nationality; I removed Kulin Ban not at my proposal, but at User:Live_Forever's. --HolyRomanEmperor 20:28, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

You are confused. Once time Bosniak was resident of Bosnia. Simple as that. And you can't change that fact, prove me that Tvrtko wasn't in my backyard in Visoko where i live? Or that grave that i visited was fake? Or town Visoki? Or Mile? Or Mostre? Come on. That was center of mediveal Bosnian state, and it is crazy to remove them. Be reasonable. Please. --HarisM 22:42, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

And what do you have to prove that Tvrtko or Mehmed was a Bosniak? As far as it seems, we could add Jovan Cvijić or Vuk Karadžić to the list according to how it goes right now! --HolyRomanEmperor 19:47, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

All people that lived in Bosnia called themselves Bosniaks or in Bosnian language (Bosnjani). --Emir Arven 16:04, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Problems with...

Stephen II of Kotroman: He is present on the list yet; there is no evidence that he or his people were Bošnjani.

His father was a German Knight and his mother a Serbian princess (Bosniaks?). --HolyRomanEmperor 14:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Tvrtko: There is no evidence that he or his people were Bošnjani. --HolyRomanEmperor 14:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

What?! His most famous chart shows that. It is called: "Povelja bana Stjepana II Kotromanica Dubrovcanima" from 1332. Look here. I'will put it here in old Bosnian. It starts with the words "If Bosnjanin do this or that..." People in Bosnia in that days called themselves Bosnjani. It is well known historical fact: --Emir Arven 08:20, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

(August 15th 1332)

Ako Bošnjanin bude duzan i pobjegne - da mu nije vjere ni ruke od gospodina Bana.
Utvrdi zakon ko je prvi bio medju Bosnom i Dubrovnikom, da zna vsaki chlovjek, koji je zakon bil: :Ako ima Dubrovcanin koju pravdu na Bošnjaninu - da ga pozove pred gospodina Bana ili pred njegova :vladaoca - roka da mu ne bude odgovoriti.
Ako Bošnjanin zapsi da nije duzan - da mu nareche priseci samoshestu, koje ljubo postavi Banj rod. :Ako bude podoban od Banova roda kto - da mu su porotnici od njegova plemena, koga mu hotenje. A toj :da se zna - da ne moze tehej pobjegnuti, a vece ne moze pred nikoga mu narechi.
A kto Dubrovcanin ubije ali posjece u Bosni ili Bošnjanin Dubrovcana - taj pravda da je pred :gospodinom Banom, a osud da grede Banu na njih.
Ako bude svadja Bošnjanina z Dubrovcaninom u Dubrovnici - da sudi knez dubrovacki i sudje, a globa :opcini.
Ako Bošnjanin uhiti Dubrovcanina za konja, a on bude ukraden ili uhushen, a pravi Dubrovcanin: "Moj :je konj vlasti" volja: "Ja sam ga kupio, ne znam od koga", volja povije od koga je kupljen, volja :priseze samoshest - cist duga da bude.
I ako Bošnjanin bude duzan, a pobjegne iz Bosne z dugom - da mu nije vjere ni ruke od gospodina :Bana. I ako Bošnjanin izme dobitak dubrovacki na vjeru, i knjiga bude u Dubrovnici, ako knez i :sudje poshlju da je knjiga prava - da je vjerovana, da plati Dubrovcaninu i bez prestavshtine.
Ako li tat ili husar uzme Dubrovchaninu u Banovu vladanju, kto se uvje - da plati Dubrovchaninu i :bez prostavshtine, a gospodinu Banu vsaki sest volova na svoju glavu - i da se ne vrate.
Ako rat bude, chesa Bog ulishi, medju Bosnom i Dubrovnikom, da gospodin Ban da rok Dubrovcanom sest :mjeseca, da si podju u Dubrovnik slobodno - na to im je vjera gospodina Bana Stjepana. A Dubrovcane :da zivu Humskom zemljom u njih' zakonu - u prvom.
A ovomuj pisanju svjedok: zupan Krksha.... A siju knjigu pisa Priboje, dijak veliki slavnoga :gospodina Bana Stjepana, gospodina svem Zemljam Bosancem i Humscem' i Donjem' krajem' gospodin.

Well; that's exactly what I wanted you to show me! Thanks. Now, we only need a similiar thing for Tvrtko and how to deal with the fact that a Bosniak has a German father and a Serbian mother. Also, no one has explained why put Mehmed Pasa Sokolovic there. --HolyRomanEmperor 17:29, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

As I said before. There is no proof that Stjepan had a German father.--Emir Arven 17:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
A better question is why put Mehmed-paša Sokolović anywhere else? The popular view that he's an "ethnic Serb" comes from the assumption that, a.) his family was orthodox, and b.) he put his brother up as the head of a renewed Peć patriarchate. Neither of these assumptions are true; they're national myths originating from faulty interpertation of historical documents. For all practical purposes, Mehmed-paša Sokolović is best described as an "Ottoman vizier of Bosniak origin". Live Forever 20:11, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

You make a good point on that. But I fail to see any sources stating that he wasn't taken forcibly from his family and converted to Islam in Istanbul explained in detail in Na Drini Ćuprija of Ivo Andrić. Andrić based his facts on historical sources from his time. --HolyRomanEmperor 23:56, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Could someone present the explaination on Tvrtko, please? --HolyRomanEmperor 12:11, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Vladislav Kotromanić was his father. Vladislav was brother of Stjepan II Kotromanić who wrote above chart. Tvrko decided to expand his contry, because of Serb attacks, during Stjepan II era. As you know Stjepan II had some very difficult fights with Serbs. Tvrko decided to stop it. Tvrko was also famous by his relationship with Bosnian Church. He protected followers of Bosnian Church from attacks. Also his wife was follower of Bosnian Church. Her name was Vojača. She was Bošnjanin, and his unwedded wife. They got a son...For the rest you should use some logic. --Emir Arven 17:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I thank you for that explaination. Now, could please stop insulting my intelligence with not-evident Personal Attacks? Actually, that thing that you mentioned on Serbs and Stephen II is a little POV. The only problem that Stephen II had is when he attacked the Serbs and conquered their western lands. Later attempts were only tries to return those lands, although, it is known that Emperor Dusan had atempted to conquer Bosnia (and actually did briefly) as he says "as a punishment".

Might I clarify an error? Vladislav of the House of Kotroman was the son of Stephen I Kotroman of Latin origin (most presumably German) and the Serbian Princess Elizabeth (daughter of King Stefan Dragutin). He was a Catholic. He married a Croatian Princess by the name of Jelena, daughter of the Prince of Bribir, George. Tvrtko was their child. Tvrtko married in 1374 the Bulgarian Princess Dorothea, daughter of the Emperor of Vidin Stracimir. See the table here: [1] if you need a proof. --HolyRomanEmperor 22:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mehmed Pasha Sokoli

I hate when I have to disagree with people, but please bear with me.

Ivo Andrić presented the Orthodox Sokolovići village in the Na Drini Ćuprija, which was actually located near Višegrad. The first Serb Patriarch was indeed a certain Makarije Sokolović. No claims dispute the fact that he was his brother, although he could've been a brother by uncle or aunt. It must be pointed out that the creators of his "Serbdom" are a Croat (Ivo Andrić) and a Bosniak (Meša Selimović). Ivo's work is more like a biography than a work. He explained his life from his kidnapping (as a result of the Blood Tax, I think) when he was ten to the "wars on three sides (Asia, Africa, Europe). But he presented him not as a villain; but as a victim of the terrifying world back then; and especially the new unkown world of the Ottoman system.

Don't get me wrong, but I think that he is the result of a process that is known as "there are no Moslem Serbs" which is taking its toll. Compare that with "there are no Catholic Serbs" which is now even accepted. Today, Milan Rešetar and Pero Budmani are considered as "Roman Catholic Slavs of Serbian and Yugoslav orientation". But the strangest thing is with Balthazzar Bogišić who is now "...a Croat of Serbian orientation born in a Serbian family(his parents were Serbs)". --HolyRomanEmperor 12:08, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Could anyone explain the fact on Mehmed Pasha Sokoli so that I don't seem aggressive if I remove it now, when no one comments? --HolyRomanEmperor 01:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
Ok, here we go - in brief. First of all, there are no primary sources that describe the village Sokolovići as Orthodox. Its not surprising that Andrić and Selimović would propagate this, considering that they both considered themselves to be Serbs for a part of their lives (most of his life, as far as Andrić is concerned). Further; they were both writers and the story can be seen as very symbolic and meaningful - poor young Serb is whisked away from his parents, "Turkicized", and then sent back to further spread a foreign culture among his own people. The metaphorical implications are obvious. Now, whether history agrees with this story is a different matter (for instance, that whole region was already pretty Islamicized by the time of Sokolović's birth). Whatever the case, the most important factor determining ethnicity is cultural rather than genetic. Taking that into account, its pretty absurd to push Sokolović forward as being primarily Bosniak or primarily Serb, seeing as with his upbringing he would best be described as an "Ottoman vizier of soandso heritage". And looking at it further, compared to modern Bosniak and Serb identities (which were forged in the past two centuries) Sokolović is clearly closer to the Bosniak one. He's been historically considered one of their own by Bosnia's muslims for centuries, whereas Serb claims to him clearly originate in the age of nationalism. Its also worth pointing out, that for all the efforts to paint Sokolović as a Serb, his part of Bosnia has been nearly wholly ethnically cleansed of people like him and his bridge-renamed "most Ive Andrića". If that doesnt aptly demonstrate which culture he belongs to, I don't know what does.
Now for the claim that he is the brother or close relative of the first Serb patriarch Makarije Sokolović. Simply not true. The Ottomans kept close records of Mehmed-paša's family. Every single member, from his father to his sister, is well known and documented to have eventually converted to Islam. Makarije does have the same family name as Mehmed-paša, but this is a coincidence - Sokolović was a very popular surname and its not hard to imagine that there were various unrelated branches. The theory that Makarije is Mehmed-paša's brother comes from two secndary sources. First is by German traveling writer Stepahn Gerlach in 1575, who writes that "the reformer of the patriarchate was the brother of the great vizier". Far later in the 19th century, the chronicler of the Tronose monastery writes that patriarch Makarije was the brother of the then great vizier. Both of these sources fail to take into account that at the time that Makarije was put up as the first patriarch, Mehmed-paša was not the great vizier. Another source from 1558 says that Makarije was Mehmed-paša's nephew. This too is impossible, because both of Mehmed-paša's brothers converted to Islam. There is no way that Makarije is a relative of Mehmed-paša, since all of Mehmed-paša's immediate family, from brothers and sisters to uncles and nephews, are carefully documented. They all converted to Islam and had nothing to do with Makarije Sokolović and the Serb patriarchate. And as for the implication that Mehmed-paša reformed (or, actually, helped reform) the patriarchate out of feelings of attachment to the Orthodox church, this is just national romanticism. Mehmed-paša's contribution to this decision was purely in accordance to Ottoman state interests. If he truly felt some remaining bond to his old religion, he could have done more; like the numerous Ottoman officials of Bosnian heritage who put up churches alongside mosques in their hometowns. Mehmed-paša never did. He was a devout Muslim and a fervent Ottoman, who was tied in ethnically with the slavic-speaking Muslim people of the West Balkans - Bosniaks. Live Forever 19:55, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zijah Sokolović

Someone forgot to add one of the greatest Yugoslav actors. --HolyRomanEmperor 19:50, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mehmed Pasa answer

... seems sufficient to me :). Just may I take myself some liberty and add a bit or two? (Note: I hereby regard the reply of User:Live_Forever as self-sufficient, I only wish to take iliberty to note a thing or two.

1. Mahmud Pasa Sokoli (sorry for the Turkish name, I just like it more this way :) was Grand Vizier of the Ottoman Empire from 1565 to 1579.

2. Ivo clearly states that his Ivan Sokolović name is more a suggestion than a historical compilation, but I heard from User:Damir_Mišić that actually Meša Selimović was a proud Muslim himself, so I don't really think that he would've been swayed so much in the face of Serbian nationalism.

3. Although it is well-known that Mehmed Pasa Sokolovic was an all-rounder (we know all the mosques and bridges; Ivo Andric actually explained all his life's contributions), it is true that he is the one who personally funded the reconstruction of the infrastructure of the Serbian Orthodox Church. Unlike the "Orthodox" Sokolovici, we can with certainity say that he funded many of the churches and monasteries. Note also that only the period of his rule is the period when the Serb nation grew rapidly in numbers, and that the Serbs were generally, well-accepted and lived peacefully in the empire. Note that immediatly after Mahmud's death riots among Serbs start and some Churches are even burned; a process which last all the way to 1766 when the Serb Orthodox Church was cancelled. There are also no other Grand Viziers that contributed to the Serb Orthodox Church other than him. This third part is actually a note, and does not describe of his "Serbian" origin.

4. You also pointed out that both of Mahmud's brothers have converted to Islam. From which religion? It is unlikely that they converted from Catholicism, so we again fall down to Orthodox Christianity.

All this sum up to one thing: I think that it is a too big coincidence. Anyway, regardless if we accept the theory that a number of Bosniaks are actually directly converted Croats and/or Serbs or not; there is still sufficient info to regard him as a Bosniak. The only doubts I had is because while he was Muslim, he wasn't in Bosnia... but nm. --HolyRomanEmperor 22:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yasemin Dalkilic

Is Yasemin Dalkilic a Bosniak ? She's Turkish and has a common turkish first name,but her last name sounds very Bosniak. Can someone clarify ? - Sid

I'm assuming she's a Turk of Bosniak ancestry. Not at all uncommon. Live Forever 05:08, 14 February 2006 (UTC)