Talk:List of Blood+ characters/Archive 1

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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Manga

Since the manga diverges considerably from the anime, should there be a seperate section for each character? For example, Carl is totally different from the series because of a major change in the Vietnam arc. I don't want to spoil anyone though. Thanks.

That can go to a separate page that specifically addresses the manga. This article is primarilly about the anime series.--Chicbicyclist 07:32, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Chicbicyclist, I made several edits to Saya's character profile, as well as Diva's, but you deleted them all. While I admit that some of these edits used weasel words, most of my edits were solidly based. I have read articles on many other anime, and I have found suggestions that have far less evidence than those that I made on this page.

The one about the blood part was especially wordy. Most of it is just trivial stuff, and talking about drinking as opposed to transfusions is just nitpicking, IMO, it's been shown many times that 'vampires' in the series do drink blood. The other stuff, specificially sword fighting skills, is also just more wordiness that do not add any substantial info to the article, though a condensed version would work too(of both the blood drinking and sword skills). Stuff about other characters, Diva's ability to take the likeness of those she drank blood from and the thing about Nathan being the twin sister's mother's chevalier is just pure speculation.--Chicbicyclist 09:31, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok then, I'll try for a more condensed version. You say that Diva's ability to take on the likeness of those whose blood she has drank is pure speculation. You did watch the series, didn't you? Diva wears Riku's likeness for most of the latter half of the series. When Diva is performing on tv, and Saya's friend watches it in Okinawa, she mutters "Riku-kun?" Also, in the final battle with Saya, she drops Riku's appearance to revert to her true form. Watch it again. This is not just speculation. Further evidence to their ability to do this is the fact that Amshel did this on the train in Russia, when he killed a female member of the Red Shield and posed as her for a time. Diva also holds this ability. The proof is all there, clear as day.

I took it as her taking the appearance of being Riku, with clothing, haircut, etc, not actual physical transformation into Riku. Her height also stayed the same and Riku was shorter than her and her hair stayed the same color unlike Riku's brown haircolor. Amshel's abilities has nothing to do with this. Chevaliers can transform into thier chevalier and human form quite freely(and other people, presumably) but Saya and diva were never seen in thier Chiroptera form. --Chicbicyclist 03:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok Then it means you HAVENT watched series clearly... In one of episodes Diva changed from her Riku appearance with short hair into he long-hair normal appearance in the minutes...it is a fact that she took Riku's appearance by shapeshifting/transforming as there's no other explanations on how she in seconds changed her hair length...

Agreed, you obviously haven't watched the series properly, in which case, I don't think you're fit to be the editor of this page. Chicbicyclist, you're making presumptions there yourself. You said "Chevaliers can transform into thier chevalier and human form quite freely(and other people, presumably)". There is no evidence to support this in the series. There is, however, quite a lot of evidence to support their ability to transform into someone who's blood they have taken. Also, what does the fact that "Saya and diva were never seen in thier Chiroptera form." have to do with what we are discussing?Also, I never said that Diva transformed into Riku, I said that she wore his likeness. I also specified in the edit I made that it was with black hair. Since you seem to be so knowledgeable in the series, perhaps you can tell me why, when Diva was performing on tv, Says's friend back in Okinawa seemed to recognise Diva as Riku? You seem extremely determined to cut me down, even though the evidence is right there. What is your problem? My evidence as to Diva's ability to do this is quite weighty, as compared to your evidence against (of which you actually have none). Also, I've just read this:"Be respectful to others and their points of view. This means primarily: Do not simply revert changes in a dispute. When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate, improve the edit, rather than reverting it. Provide a good edit summary when making significant changes that other users might object to. The revision you would prefer will not be established by reverting, and repeated reverting is forbidden; discuss disputed changes on the talk page." You're clearly going against this.Spacelion 15:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Well then, tell me the episode number of the act and I'll rewatch it. My statements about "(other people)" was meant to imply that chevaliers can transform to other people. The "presumably" was tacked on because the only two chevalier I saw doing the transformation into other humans was Amshel and Rasputin(both Diva's chevalier). The part about chevalier transformation from human to chiroptera is not a presumption however.

The evidence that they have to take a blood of thier intended victim is weak, because there was only one alleged instance that I recalled them doing it, and it was Amshel. And he's a chevalier, not full blooded Chirotera. For all we know, he never had to drink the woman's blood and just took her disguise for for convenience's sake. She was the newest person the group knew and she had easy and free access to them. But this is all speculation which was my point in the first place.

And finally, anime articles on wikipedia are notorious for being speculative so that might have explained your perceived hostility and I apologize for that. I would rather have shortened summaries of the characters(and notable attributes) than a whole essay explaining the entire character's development during the entire series. Succinct and to the point is sometimes more effective than having too much information. After all, wikipedia is striving to be an encyclopedia, not an excuse to completely forgo watching the show/reading the manga altogether.--Chicbicyclist 07:21, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh I know, I never questioned the Chevalier being able to change between their forms, I just meant about their being able to change into other people. I imagine, though, that if they were indeed able to do this, the Chevaliers would have taken a great deal more advantage of this, don't you think? Anyway, I the episode where Diva performs is episode 48, "Skyscraper Opera". Even apart from that, in episode 49, Diva reverts from her "Kai looks" back to her true human self, her usual long hair, facial features, etc. Also, I apologise if I came across as slightly aggressive in my last post. I got a bit heated.--Spacelion 15:45, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

ok here i go we must assume that they (chevaliers) drink blood only to take another persons form for the point that even though a "chevy" IS a full blooded chiroptera just with a purer strain of what ever diva is giving out they do not need to ingest any sort of nutrition blood or otherwise as riku showed us during the five or so episodes he was a chevalier. we can also believe that chiroptera queens do not have a mutant form due to two facts.

1. no where in either manga or anime in time of dire need either Saya's forced starvation or Diva's bout with nymphomania had they transmogrified.

2. since chiroptera attacked by chevaliers or ingest Delta 47 become vampiric were-anteaters and chevaliers can mutate back and forth between human and were-anteater form that the queens have no ability to mutate.

but that whould not explain why the last chiroptera queen was found in full blown bat wing anteatery form! Deanostrodamus

Nathan

Hi, I was wondering what is the reference source that supposedly hinted Nathan as being a chevalier of Saya's/Diva's mother? --Remy Suen 03:18, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

There are two hints to this:

1.Nathan said this phrase in the last episodes, that there "may still be some chevaliers of twins(Saya/Diva) mother around".

2. Nathan was sliced with Saya's blood-infused sword and he didnt underwent Crystalization...and even more...At the last minutes we see him standing in the crowd. IF he was Diva's chevalier he shoulda be lying calm like a crystalic panda statue.

Solomon's Age

In 1918, when Solomon was made a chevalier soon after WWI, he had just begun his practice as a physician; and judging from his looks, he was probably in his twenties. So in 2007, he was probably 110+ years old instead of ~90 years old. --Lareine 09:26, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Blood+

I really like the anime and the manga. Its awsome!!! The discussion has more detail than the headlinings with the pictures. Anyway...... its still cool.

                                                              21:21, 17 March 2007 (UTC)~
                                                               Youkia

Cataloging Characters

I was wondering, is the character page going to get fix up to so that it will be easier to find the characters that one is looking for? The way it is now, if someone was looking for info on lets say Kai Miyagusuku, one has to scroll down the page to get the info instead of just click on the name in the content list.

I think it would be beneficial someone fixed the page so that characters names appeared on the content list. I would try do it myself, but I don't have the time it would take to do the whole page.

I made a try at it, but in order to keep the same format, all the stuff about the name on that line shows up in the contents, so I didn't save it. Does anyone have suggestions on how the format could be restructured? Also note that this will make the contents part pretty long. --Eruhildo 04:44, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler Warning

It would probably be helpful to include a spoiler warning at the top of the page. There might be some people who find their way here through links, and they might not have finished watching the series yet. 124.105.184.241 00:33, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I used to think spoiler alerts were needed, but Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia, not a fan site. The aim is to provide accurate, verifiable information. Everyone please also note that this is a talk page, and there are guidelines, such as the person before talked about how he/she loves the anime and manga, which does not help improve the MAIN ARTICLE GinLime 02:00, 9 October 2007 (UTC)GinLime

Diva a pedophile?

Diva looks like she's 16, Riku looks like he's 13. That's only 3 years. I think calling Diva a pedophile is going too far. Blacktiger9000 20:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Well she is over 100 years old, and 16 is the legal age of consent in Japan, not 18.

In that case I suppose I can head to Japan just for the purpose of doing some 16-ish year olds, and not be considered a pedophile. Facetious. All in all I'd say Haji exhibits tendencies of pedophilia, calling Diva one is stretching it for me. 70.19.29.65 06:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't call either of them pedophile. (Haji is younger than Saya and once looked like it too.) I think that part should be removed. --Eruhildo 19:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I would say neither too but if I had to choose it'll be Haji. He looks 20+, Saya looks 20-. I was just surprised to see it called pedophilia when besides her age Diva is essentially a child.70.19.29.65 22:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

From Deanostrodamus

first off diva isnt japanese if we are going by names diva is italian but since shes a super centenial in a unaged form of a human side species she can be and besides she does not live in japan so legal age whould not matter also pedophilia is also a state of mind not only a illegal hobby.

Fair use rationale for Image:Joel1st.jpg

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Fair use rationale for Image:Joel6.jpg

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Character Ages

Are the ages for the characters best guesses or are they offically stated somewhere? Because the Japanese version of the page says Kai is 17 at the start, and Riku is 14. Also, I didn't think 2 years had passed by the time of Riku's death. --Eruhildo 19:09, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

I've checked the official website witch states that Kai is 17 years old at the start of the series, which makes sense because he was still in high school at the time. Riku's age was not listed. I did a quick search on Google for Riku's age and the first page of English sites said he was 13, but the first page of Japanese one said he was 14. Does anyone know which age is correct? --Eruhildo 19:27, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I thought it said that Kai actually LEFT high school to help his father in the Omoro.--SayaMan 16:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Are you sure about that? Kai was wearing the school uniform in the first couple episodes and in episode 2 Riku says, "Onii-chan no gakkou" (Eng: Kai's school) in reference to Saya's high school. Though it could have been mentioned in a later episode that Kai had dropped out. Do you know exactly where? I haven't watched much of the early episodes in a while. --Eruhildo 21:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm not sure, I believe that's what is written on japanese vestion of the page. Though i think that is true for MANGA version, don't recall such information about tv series. --SayaMan 12:57, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge

Does anyone else think List of minor Blood+ characters should be merged with this article? It seems kind of pointless to me to have two separate pages. I can't think of any other articles that do this. --Eruhildo 20:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Merge ahead. Fox816 16:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Okamura, Jahana and Lulu

The article states that in the last ep. all three are heading to the Middle East. I've watched a few last episodes but can't find any mention about that. Someone who knows the exact place, could you please help me to find it? :/--SayaMan 01:43, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

When Kai is cutting Saya's hair in the last episode (about 16 minutes in), he tells her that Okamura and Mao are going to the Middle East; I guess to investigate a story or something. There is no mention of Lulu at all in that scene, nor is she mentioned going with the other two anywhere else in the episode. I've already fixed the descriptions. Thanks for pointing this out. --Eruhildo 03:10, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, i see it now, thanks. It's a pity that Lulu isn't going though)--SayaMan 12:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

A pic of Diva's real form

Shouldn't there be one? And not just of her in her Riku form?

I agree, there should be one if we can find one that does not violate the fair use rationale. --Eruhildo 18:58, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

well since we haven't seen a chiroptera queen freak out and mutate yet we don't know what they look like. Deanostrodamus

I meant, one that shows her as she appeared as a teenage girl, before she took on Riku's image.

I've uploaded one and added it to the the article. Oh and Dean, Queens are never shown to have a "Chiropteran form" in the series. --Eruhildo (talk) 02:49, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

yea but what about SAYA you know the chiropteran the saya and diva were found in. Deanostrodamus

Otonashi?

Where does Saya get her surname? Kai, George, and Riku are all named "Miyagusuku" so it's not an adoptive name; the next logical thought would be "Goldschmidt" after the original Joel, but that's not it either.

Did I miss something? It's really bothering me!

~goes to rewatch all 50 episodes~♥♥♥

She is adopted in away so ? Hmm the truth? (talk) 14:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Diva's children

It's me again (same unregistered person as above)... I'm starting to be a pain, aren't I?

Were Diva and Riku's twins names ever given? Because I was looking through the Japanese version of this entry and, under Diva's description is: "音無奏・音無響" meaning OTONASHI KANADE and OTONASHI HIBIKI.

My Japanese is AWFUL (I'm Chinese XP), but this is a rough translation of the paragraph.

Diva and Riku's children (who are twin sisters). They are the next generation of queens. Saya and Kai's niece [. . .] after winning. The matter of the story of the Otonashi twins is a bright one. Kanade is the older sister, who has brownish eyes identical to Saya's, and Hibiki, the younger sister, resembles her mother, Diva, with blue eyes. After Diva's death, Kai accepts [the responsibity] of raising the twins. The two call Kai by his first name without honorifics which Kai often scolds them for, telling them to call him "otousan" (father).

I did this line by line so it sounds really choppy together. I don't see any references at all... is this just speculation?

(romaji - probably incorrect)

Diva to Riku no kodomo de futago no shimai。Jisedai no joō de ari。Saya to Kai no mei ni ataru。Shousetsu ni de futago no mei ga Otonashi Kanade to Otonashi Hibiki de aru koto ga akiraka ni natta。Ane de aru Kanade wa Saya to dōyō no chakasshoku no hitomi wo, imōto de aru Hibiki wa Diva ni ji ta aoi hitomi o shiteiru。Diva no shigo, Kai ga futari wo hikitori sodate teiru。Futari tomo Kai nokoto wo ｢Kai」 to yobisute ni shiteiru ga, Kai wa ｢otōsan」 to kobetokinmeiru。

(original)

ディーヴァとリクの子供で双子の姉妹。次世代の女王であり、小夜とカイの姪に当たる。小説にて双子の名が音無奏と音無響である事が明らかになった。姉である奏は小夜と同様の茶褐色の瞳を、妹である響はディーヴァに似た青い瞳をしている。ディーヴァの死後、カイが二人を引き取り育てている。二人ともカイのことを｢カイ」と呼び捨てにしているが、カイは「お父さん」と呼べと窘めている。

...I have too much free time...

Saya's weapon

Because Saya's sword has an unusual shape, I am going to add that it has features "analogous to those of a kopesh," if that is alright.

David's true identity...

Anyone else think he looks, acts, and sounds like David Bowie? Anyone? Seriously, how can you not see it?

Well he looks like him at the very least, to me anyway.

How come

Saya never tried to just become a nice family with Diva? Just ask her to stop and be a family with her? Was this Asmael guy such a heavy influence?? Explain please:)

Life's usually not that easy. Diva did wipe out everyone Saya knew as family. Also Chiroptera made from Diva's blood were killing people and Diva's Chevaliers were causing trouble throughout the world (altering politics, etc.). Diva even impersonated Anastasia (see [1] (Japanese)). So Saya wasn't very happy with her for that stuff. But most importantly, Diva tricked Saya into letting her out (she killed everyone after that). Because of the pain her sister caused others, Saya felt that Chiroptera didn't belong in this world. The only way to rid the world of them forever was for Saya and Diva to both die. As for Amshel, he was a huge influence on Diva. Nathan explains in one of the last couple episodes that Amshel only saw Diva as a test subject and treated her as such. As a result of not receiving the love and care Saya did, she became cold and uncaring. Well, that's the best I can do. I hope it helps. --Eruhildo (talk) 01:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I think saya and the others could have done more if they got her away from them. But she was being maniuplated and also being "experimented on" (being screwed by other chevaliers to try to make a queen). Very sad and a double fault on both parties

True, but don't forget over a hundred years had passed by this point. Though seeing the way Diva treated her babies at the end makes me wonder if she might have changed if given the chance. Oh and don't forget to sign your posts with ~~~~ --Eruhildo (talk) 20:30, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

i kinda figured all that i just didn't want to think off it... anime is weird any way as far as i concieved since we dont know the actions diva exactly took after being freed we cant say she just went feral because when saya opened the door diva was in rags bat she was in a ball dress when saya came back. also how did diva know what to do like make a chevalier and why choose 5 guys all with the personalities of different dictators? Honestly i think amshel is the one obsessed with immortallity even though that doesn't explain why he protected diva or why he let a bunch of dudes including Rasputin to copulate with her all of this is very weird but then again anime is weird. i also suggest diva and amshel had a John Procter / Abigal Williams (the crucible) kind of relationship during her imprisonment. Deanostrodamus

hibernation of saya

Saya goes to sleep after being awake every 3-4 years. I wonder how did she get to watch Haji grow from 13-21 without going to sleep. Was it because she wasnt fully developed? Apparently she didnt hibernate while the 1st Joel was alive I suppose.

Princessmb november 26 2007

I think it has something to do with their fighting blood being activated. I'm fairly certain it has nothing to do with making a Chevalier as Diva had one longer than Saya did, but their sleep cycles matched - the likelihood of this is slim. I guess it could be to protect them from killing each other off too soon. Of course, nothing official has been released on this, so I'm just theorizing. --Eruhildo (talk) 18:31, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Separate articles for each main character?

User_talk:Horashe has created a stand-alone article for Saya Otonashi. It is almost a duplicate of the section List of Blood+ characters#Saya Otonashi. Do we really need to have separate pages for each anime character? Joeinwap 10:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I would say that there is enough already written for Saya, Haji, and Diva to have their own articles. I think enough could be written for Kai and maybe Riku to have their own articles as well. I think this page is kind of long and would be better if it were broken up that way. I think the Schiff could use their own article as well. --Eruhildo 19:56, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

I see that the other page, Saya Otonashi, is no longer visible; it redirects to List of Blood+ characters#Saya Otonashi now. Joeinwap 10:01, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Update: I finished splitting Saya Otonashi from this article and added info on the Blood: The Last Vampire character. I'll work on the other main characters soon. --Eruhildo (talk) 00:18, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

There should be enough out-of-universe information to justify separate character articles. As far as Saya goes, there should be an abundance of that out there and considering her character is central to not only the series but a movie and manga as well then having an article for her is necessitated. However, for Haji and the rest I don't think it's needed. Fox816 (talk) 04:01, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Saya's info is now back in this article and the Saya article AfDed for the second time. There was no justification or reason to undoing the first AfD consensus; Saya in Blood+ and in Blood the Last Vampire are too different to need a combined article, each article covers her sufficiently in their own contexts. None of the characters meet the notability requirements for having their own articles and it violates WP:PLOT. Collectonian 09:36, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I should be able to find enough sources for the Saya article if you give me a few weeks (I have finals coming up). As for the others, I agree that there is not enough to justify them. --Eruhildo 01:04, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Saya's article is already up for AfD. As Blood+ and Blood the Last Vampire are dramatically different, Saya's character in each should be covered here and in Blood the Last Vampire's main article, as it already is. Separate character articles are strongly discouraged and it will just get AfDed again. She is already well covered here. Collectonian 01:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I insist, the Schiff deserve their own article...One of us has to make it...Well, I'll just edit it, that's the most I can do...

Okay ill get to work oh and im only providing the frame work. Deanostrodamus

~~I'll consider doing one on the Schiff over the weekend. I'll need to do a bit of research first though. --Eruhildo (talk) 19:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)~~

The Schiff do NOT deserve their own article. Please review WP:FICT and WP:PLOT. They are unnotable outside of the series and there is no real world information that can justify such an artice. If created, it would quickly be AfDed. Collectonian 09:36, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, I just wasn't thinking when I wrote that post. --Eruhildo 01:04, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

oh well thanks for that discusion now you know what talking about creating an article does to someone as proactive me. Deanostrodamus the Mystical 14:49, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Deanostrodamus needs help!

Okay guys im sorry if i offended anyone by putting my article at the top but there i've made two article that i need help to keep from getting deleted. they are both about blood+ one is a kai profile and the other one is "the world in which we exist" episode. Kai [[2]] The world in which we exist [[3]]

please quick! help these kodomoppoi butas are annoying me! see i know japanese too! Deanostrodamus the Mystical (talk) 15:34, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Neither of those articles meets WP:NOTE or WP:FICT. Please read both thoroughly before creating anymore articles. WP:EPISODE also has good info on this subject. I've added a welcome message to your talk page with a slew of good links on editing Wikipedia. Please read at least some of those. Thank you. --Eruhildo (talk) 19:51, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately there is not enough reason to keep those articles. They lack any notable information outside of just retelling what happened in the series. Especially for articles dedicated to episodes, there should be reliable and carefully cited encyclopedic information such as, but not limited to, production notes/words from the director or author/design/influences/etc... If the article is plainly a recap of what happened in the plot then we can't do anything but have it deleted. However, what we will try and do is hopefully salvage the article by finding out-of-universe information to make it worth keeping. Although, it is primarily the responsibility of the creator of the article to add in this information when starting up the page and not relying on other editors to do the work for you. Keep that in mind in the future. Like Eruhildo stated earlier, please read the WPs relavent to fiction series as well as previous discussions regarding the general topic. I wish you luck in all your future editing endeavors. Fox816 (talk) 04:55, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I dont think there are any really deep meanings to the characters i mean the director of blood + didn't explain his show on Adultswim.com like paranoia agent's director did. but if i had to speclate i whould say that saya, kai, and riku are based on janet, tito, and michael jackson respectivly. Deanostrodamus the Mystical 13:14, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

More Clean Up

Some of the character sections need to be pared down a bit, particularly the less major characters. All of the sections are in heavy need of citations. At the minimal, citations from the episodes are needed (see List of Trinity Blood characters for an example of episode cites used to support the character descriptions).

Also, there are far too many images in this article, and they will likely get removed per the new effort to enforce the fair use policies (which require minimal usage). I'd strongly suggest finding group images that can be used to replace the individual images. I'm pretty sure a group image of Saya and her family could be found fairly easily, as well as one with Diva and her Chevaliers. I've seen several anime and television show articles hit already, where those not in compliance have ALL of their images stripped out, so let's be proactive and fix the problem before that happens. :) Collectonian 11:58, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Is that a threat? Deanostrodamus the Mystical 14:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

No, it is a reminder of the MOS, the notability policy, and over all Wikipedia guidelines. If you choose to disregard them, then any such articles unnecessarily created will be sent to AfD and I will do so myself if no one beats me too it. Inidvidual character articles for a single series are completely unnecessary and do not meet the requirements for article creation. The ones that were already created are under AfD now. Collectonian 15:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

"Inidvidual character articles for a single series are completely unnecessary"? You've apparently never seen the Bleach articles. --Eruhildo 18:32, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I have and a similar discussion is occurring there because it also needs clean up. At least Bleach can make a slightly better case from the sheer insane length of both the anime and manga series. Blood+ is done, only 50 episodes, and easily covered in a single article. Also, see WP:OTHERSTUFF. Collectonian 20:26, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not disagreeing with you on that - I just think you shouldn't make such a blanket statement and apply it to everything. I agree that most of the character descriptions need major clean up to meet standards, and as for the pics - I'll upload some group shots when I have some time. --Eruhildo 20:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I've done some clean up of several character sections, as shown by the many edit summaries, add a lot of episode citations, and fixed some formatting issues. Since I haven't seen the whole show, though, I limited my clean up to the parts I had seen. Hopefully it will be a guideline/inspiration for someone who has seen the whole show to follow in cleaning up other sections. As part of the clean up, I removed two characters who had no appearance of notability Ghee (had an extremely short section) and Joel Goldschmidt (I incorporated most of his section's stuff into the Red Shield intro as that is where it is most notable). I also removed a few images from mostly less major characters as being extraneous to start the move to compliance with the non-free image guidelines. Collectonian (talk) 09:29, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow, the article looks a lot better. I kind of miss some stuff, but it really needed to go. As for Joel Goldschmidt, however, I think his part should stay in as his actions were the cause of the entire series. Maybe that's not enough to make him notable, but we can probably find something about him that's notable. --Eruhildo (talk) 22:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks :) I agree on Joel, which is why I incorporated him into the Red Shield intro section, plus mentions in the main article and Saya & Diva's sections. I don't think he needs a separate listing, though, I could see it both ways. Collectonian (talk) 22:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Locals

There used to be a page for minor characters from different locations around the world ("Vietnam locals," "Russian locals," etc.) I don't see a link to the page anymore, so I'm not sure if it still exists and someone just inadvertently edited out a link to it, or if the characters were just deleted from the main characters page, or what... Obviously they don't need their own pages, but I see no reason not to even mention that these characters existed... People like Kaori, Min, Mui, Elizabeta, etc.... not necessarily hugely important to the overall story, but certainly important to individual story arcs, and important on a personal level to the main characters... Teknomage (talk) 19:46, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Such minor characters are not notable enough for inclusion in their own list (hence the page being deleted), and they do not need to be covered here. Wikipedia isn't intended to be a full show guide, but encyclopedic coverage. As such, only the significant and major characters are covered, and only the major plots points rather than giving the full blow by blow. Those "local" characters were not significant to the over all story, and are adequately covered by their mentions in the episode summaries. Collectonian (talk) 19:50, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, as inconvenient as I may find that, I also find it understandable. Except for the fact that some such characters aren't mentioned at all in the episode summaries, either. Teknomage (talk) 20:05, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the episode summaries are something of a work in progress. You can probably tell where I started redoing them at, then Cartoon Network stopped airing reruns on weekdays so unless someone else jumps in, I won't be able to do the earlier episodes until the DVDs come out in a few months :( Collectonian (talk) 20:09, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Amshel and Solomon

Collectonian asked me to site my claim that Amshel and Solomon are not brothers, so here it goes:

According to the timeline on the official site, Amshel becomes a chevalier no later than 1883. It also says that Solomon became a chevalier in 1917. That's 34 years difference. While that's not too long to rule out brothership, SAYA was brought to the Zoo in 1832. At that time, Amshel and Joel looked about the same age (20 something or early 30's), so it's probably safe to assume they were born in the early 1800's. Joel dies in 1883 at age 72. Amshel certainly doesn't look 72 (more like 40's or 50's I think). We know from both the timeline and the anime that Joel became aware that chiropteran blood had special properties in 1863. It could be that Amshel became a chevalier then. But I'm getting into theory now, back to Amshel relationship with Solomon.

Solomon looks like he's in his early 20's. Even if he were born in the late 1880's, there would have to be at least 60-70 years between them. It would be impossible for them to have the same human parents, though I do believe they are probably related in some way. Solomon might call him "Nii-san" because they are cousins, or perhaps because Amshel doesn't age he always seems like a brother, or something. Anyway, I'm pretty sure we can rule out a brother relationship. Oh yeah, I translated the timeline a while back as I was looking to reincorporate it back into the main article. It's here for those who can't read Japanese. --Eruhildo (talk) 04:24, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, making that determination falls under original research. In the series, they are referring to each other as brother (in both the Japanese and official English dub). Unfortunately, they way they are using it makes it hard to tell if they mean brother as "children of Diva" or if they mean brother in some other sense. Looking at the timeline, though, your change makes more sense. Last night's episode didn't really make any indication that Amshel had been a chevalier that long, hence my questioning it.Collectonian (talk) 04:45, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Based off EP40, Solomon recalls the memory of when he was turned into a chevalier. He called Amshel his brother before being turned and even yet before knowing of Diva's existance. I can't remember it exactly but they're conversation in the dungeon may clarify things about any familial relationship. Fox816 (talk) 05:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's where I got confused as well. He seemed to consider Amshel his brother before he met Diva, which is why I thought maybe adopted brother or something like that. I wonder if the anime will finish explaining or if we will have to wait for the novels and manga. Collectonian (talk) 05:43, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

No, the anime never explains their exact relationship, which is why I thought it better to remove the mention of it entirely. I figured it was just a sign of closeness as it's not uncommon in Japan for relatives to call each other by "Nii" and "Nee" even if they're not siblings. I know most of what I mentioned before is OR, but surely there's enough non-OR evidence to say logically that they're probably not brothers, right? It's not like we have to go out and say "they're not brothers" in the article. I just think we shouldn't say out right that they are brothers. --Eruhildo (talk) 03:03, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

The thing is, the anime doesn't explain the relationship and the English dub is specifically translating it as brother. Maybe they just didn't investigate to be sure that's what they really are, but right now the primary sources we have are the original and the English. While Nii-san can be used to indicate closeness, it can also indicate relationship. Unless and until something contradicts it explicitly, we are obligated to go with what the anime uses. When the novels and manga start coming out, hopefully they will clarify it which can then be used as the source to expand the article :) Collectonian (talk) 03:10, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, but I still don't see why we must explicitly say they're brothers. Can't we just leave out that detail? --Eruhildo (talk) 01:05, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Because that's not being neutral, and actively choosing to ignore something actively noted in the store. We can't inject our own views or try to guess what was really meant, nor leave out what we disagree with. So, foror now, yes, we must go with what the series says, unless a reliable source says otherwise or the series, novels, or manga later clarify or explain. Collectonian (talk) 03:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm.. ok, I guess that makes sense. I'll drop the issue. --Eruhildo (talk) 17:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Haji's purpose

The section on Haji implies that he was obtained by Joel as a mate for Saya. I think that's an incomplete picture since in one of the last episodes (48?) I recall Amshel telling Haji that he was envious of him because Joel intended to use Haji as a mate for Diva. As Joel's assistant, Amshel is a credible witness. But this revelation is confusing because Haji was encouraged as a boy to befriend Saya. Perhaps Joel wanted Haji for both sisters. But Hagi knew nothing of Diva before her release, so I conjecture that either Amshel interfered with the contact between Diva and Haji, or that Joel had plans to introduce Haji to Diva later, or that on meeting Hagi, Joel changed his mind. Oh God, why I am even thinking about this crap. 123.51.3.24 (talk) 01:24, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure Joel specifically said he intended Haji to be a mate for Saya in one of the flashback episodes. At the time, they didn't know anything about chevaliers only being able to impregnate the opposite queen. Amshel isn't exactly known for his truth telling, so I think Haji's memories are more trusth worthy and Amshel was probably just trying to throw Haji off kilter. And LOL, that's a sign its a good series that you start thinking about all that :P Collectonian (talk) 02:50, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I'd say pretty much the same thing. I don't remember that part real well, but I think Amshel was saying that had it not been for Riku becoming a chevalier, Haji would have been the only one Diva could have children with (however, she didn't want to). --Eruhildo (talk) 20:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Who is Ghee?

I've noticed various editors have been switching Ghee's gender back and forth lately. Ghee was the blone dude with long hair and sunglasses, right? That Schiff was a guy. I just thought this should be cleared up so we don't have the same edits being made over and over again. --Eruhildo (talk) 03:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I couldn't figure it out at first, but I think I found an answer on a fan site. According to it, Ghee is a male in the original, but is changed to female in the dub. So those, like me, who've only seen the dub on CN are thinking she's female and have been changing it back, while I guess if you've seen the original through whatever method, you know he's male and have been correcting. LOL. Weee...I'll add a note to the profile.Collectonian (talk) 04:02, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

No really. His name is Guy. That's how the French say Guy. Ghee is the incorrect spelling.--Slotedpig (talk) 02:31, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Ghee is the spelling seen in the credits, so you need to provide a reliable source for your supposition that the correct English spelling is Guy and not Ghee. Please stop changing the list until you can provide that. Collectonian (talk) 02:35, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not a supposition. The credits have it wrong then. The Japanese characters and promotional material spells it the correct way Guy. --Slotedpig (talk) 02:50, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

We are using the official English spellings in the list, not the Japanese. Please provide links to the Japanese characters and promotional materials you mentioned. If they show Ghee, a note can be added similar as to was done with Haji. He isn't a major enough character to have to do much more than that. Collectonian (talk) 02:53, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

No, the Japanese characters are ギー (Gē^?) so you can't say it's spelled the French way with the Japanese characters. As for the English spelling, the only one I've ever seen for this character is the one used here. We're not supposed to use the "proper" spelling, just the common one. --Eruhildo (talk) 05:03, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

ギー (Gē^?) would be the French pronunciation name Guy. It's spelled the same in English and French. I also point out that the wikipedia article for Jun Fukuyama lists his part as Guy not Ghee, and places like ANN that have the official cast and credits list Jun Fukuyama's part as Guy not Ghee. --Slotedpig (talk) 16:23, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

ANN also shows his name as Ghee in the English cast section. Other Wikipedia articles are not a reliable source. Collectonian (talk) 16:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Which is the incorrect spelling of the name Guy. I know you won't change it, but Ghee is not common way of spelling it either. I've never seen anyone spell it that way until I came to wikipedia. --Slotedpig (talk) 19:16, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

List of Blood characters

Hving a look at Image:BloodDiva.jpg, I noticed that it still links to an article... List of Blood characters (note that it's missing the plus). Given that that article is a nearly exact copy of this one, I looked at its history, and it seems that it was inadvertently created on January 30 by Anonymous Dissident (talk · contribs) in an attempt to revert vandalism. It hasn't been edited since, and nothing but some maintenance pages link to it, so it can be safely deleted. —Dino guy 1000 17:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I've tagged it for housekeeping CSD after adding a note to that affect.Collectonian (talk) 18:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

As an update, the list was blanked and redirected here, which also works. Collectonian (talk) 02:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Eh, that works too... I probably should have just done that to begin with, but it didn't occur to me. =P —Dino guy 1000 18:12, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm a little confused with what's going on. When I tagged the image, I noticed it still said this article linked to it. What did y'all do to change this? I'd like to know so I can fix it myself the next time I come across something like this. --Eruhildo (talk) 18:26, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Close, but not quite. It actually still linked to List of Blood characters, which was inadvertently created by Anonymous Dissident (talk · contribs) in an attempt to revert vandalism, as I stated above. At first, I couldn't tell the difference either, then I noticed that the article title lacked a plus sign after the word "Blood". Hope this clears it up for you... —Dino guy 1000 18:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Oooh, I see. That's tricky. Thanks for explaining it. --Eruhildo (talk) 03:53, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

New Chevalier Pic

Okay, i just uploaded a pic contains Diva's Chevaliers, guess it's better than the old one. OgasawaraSachiko (Contact me here) 12:13, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Note: This is the new pic being discussed: Image:All Diva's Chevaliers.jpg Collectonian (talk) 06:44, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. While the new one does show all the faces, it is also difficult to see several due to the heavy shadowing. The anime picture is clearer. . The uploaded picture also currently violates FUR by being too large, and the source is not specific enough and seems questionable. Collectonian (talk) 05:19, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, i just uploaded a new and brighter version for that one including Diva and her Chevaliers. OgasawaraSachiko (Contact me here) 12:39, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, but it still needs to be discussed here FIRST. If you look above, you will see all of the images in the list have been discussed and consensus reached so please do the same and don't just change the list. Collectonian (talk) 05:58, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

In terms of identifying the chevalier it's better than the current one. However, with the odd depiction of Diva in the background, it seems rather off putting. The quality of the scan isn't very good either. There's obvious glare and some wrinkling. As for the source the picture was taken from a scan gallery on the website Animepaper, presumebly uploaded by a user from a Blood+ Calendar they had purchased. Fox816 (talk) 06:29, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The new image is odd looking, and while it may be better in terms of showing the faces, I think it is less attractive. Also, as Fox notes, the quality isn't very good an it was taken from a uploader website, so its source may or may not be accurate. Also, OgasawaraSachiko, if you change the pic again, please uploaded under a new name and post a link so the conversation doesn't get confusing.Collectonian (talk) 06:44, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

If it didn't look like a grainy poster scan, I think I would go for it. Though I have to admit, Diva does look rather... odd. --Eruhildo (talk) 20:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Goldsmith Brother Order

All of Diva's chevalier paragraphs begin by saying "so-and-so is the Xth Goldsmith brother." However, this order does not appear to be supported by any references and no order is given in the series beyond attempts to extrapolate based on the flash backs shown for some characters. Additionally, only two of the chevaliers, the actual two brothers Amshel and Solomon, are really Goldsmiths. It seems to me that the order is too OR and those statements should be removed as they can not be sourced. Thoughts? Collectonian (talk) 19:44, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Check out this timeline I was working on a while back. Before you started editing the Blood+ articles, there was a timeline on the main article, but it was removed in favor of prose. However, the timeline has data that is not mentioned in the series. I've been meaning to merge that data into the articles, but I haven't had time. The timeline is based off the timeline at the official site (Japanese) and I provided a rough translation. --Eruhildo (talk) 15:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah, cool. That can be used to help fill out some of these sections quite nicely :) Collectonian (talk) 15:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I've incorporated some of the time line into various sections, and and gave Diva and her chevalier sections some much needed clean up. I also removed all references to order, as the timeline doesn't give two chevalier's conversion dates, and the ambiguity of Nathan makes it impossible to declare when/where he was converted. Perhaps the manga or novels will be able to make it clearer later though. Collectonian (talk) 02:28, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

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