Talk:List of Aston Villa F.C. players

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Contents 1 Captains 2 Color key 3 Notes 4 Name of Article 5 Inclusion criteria

[edit] Captains

During the FAC of this page User:Circeus has moved the List of Aston Villa captains over onto the the main list of Aston Villa F.C. players. I personally think it has become a duplication and that the captains could become integrated into the notable players section now. Although this will make the table very large, complicated and indeed overwhelming. Should page deletes be conducted unilaterally. Thoughts please. Thanks Woodym555 16:51, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Trust me, this did not by any definition make the list "very large" (see List of Chicago Landmarks), "complicated" (see List of United States Presidents by age) or "overwhelming" (see 2005 NFL Draft). Circeus 17:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure Circeus is doing his best to improve the article, he seems to have a lot of experience. Re the two lists, I think club captains are inherently 'notable players' and so the two lists could be integrated. --Malcolmxl5 17:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

How is / was the list of captains verified? Are, say, only players who captained the side for a full season or more included, or is it any player to have donned the armband? Oldelpaso 17:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

As it is, all the captain were already listed in the main list, but the color coding to mark them had severe accessibility issues, which is what prompted me to add the separate table, who had very little data not in the main players list anyway. the captains are a subset of the main list, which, I think, makes more sense in a section, but not distinct or numerous enough to warrant a separate article. Circeus 18:14, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it should even have its own list on this page. I know it may be a turnaround but i think the captains section should be integrated into the main list. I don't think that the colour coding has many accessibility issues. I think that a separate column should be made for the Captaincy dates and the "achievements" put in footnote form. I also think that i should probably move this discussion onto the talk page of the article concerned. Thanks Woodym555 18:24, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I think you need to be able to add in the honours they won as a captain also somehow! (Everlast1910 09:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Color key

Okay, all the captains' table info is now in the main table. I would agree with Woodym that it is not necessary to keep the separate tables anymore. I'm thinking that we could rename "records" to "notes" and moves in there the "100 legends" notes, the Aston Villa HoF inductions and captainship highlights to remove the need for coloring entirely. what are your thoughts? Circeus 14:56, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I think the large strips of blue across the main list can go, although in the "notes section" (and i agree it should be notes, not records) i think some sort of colour coding would be useful to easily distinguish those who hold records. The captains section is oinly coloured if that person won something during his time as captain. I think the coloured highlights are useful when trying to distinguish between the notes. Otherwise it would just be an indiscriminate listing of notes. That is of course, just my opinion! How would you go about it? Would you put all of the notes including captains achievements in the list? ThanksWoodym555 15:26, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Name	Nationality	Position	Aston Villa career	Captaincy	Appearances	Goals	Notes
Price, Walter H.Walter H. Price	England	Defender	1874	1874-1876	&Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n".Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"n/a	&Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"Expression error: Unrecognised word "n".Expression error: Unrecognised word "n"n/a	[1][2]
Devey, JohnJohn Devey	England	Forward	1891–1902	1891-1898[3]	&0000000000000304.000000304	&0000000000000186.000000186	[4]
Devey, JohnJohn Devey	England	Forward	1891–1902	1891-1898	&0000000000000304.000000304	&0000000000000186.000000186	[5][6]
Aitken, CharlieCharlie Aitken	Scotland	Defender	1959–1976	1966-1973[7]	&0000000000000660.000000660	&0000000000000016.00000016	[8]
Aitken, CharlieCharlie Aitken	Scotland	Defender	1959–1976	1966-1973	&0000000000000660.000000660	&0000000000000016.00000016	AVHoF,[9] Captain:[10]

[edit] Notes

Using this example table.

• It is fine for Walter Price; he has only a record.
• For John Devey The first example looks okay, not uncomplicated, the information can easily be discerned. The dates should be aligned left though as the notes ruin the central alignment. But he isn't a Hall of Famer. The second example shows his "captains achievements in the notes section. How do we know it is related to captains?
• For players like Charlie Aitken it gets very complicated without colour coding. He is a captain who won things, a club record holder and a hall of famer. His notes looks complicated in my opinion in the second example. Woodym555 15:42, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Woodym's comments personally! (Everlast1910 17:40, 5 August 2007 (UTC))

Maybe add colours for current players still playing and a colour for Barry as being current club captain? (Everlast1910 20:55, 5 August 2007 (UTC))

I think Barry being current club captain is self evident by the "-" in his Captaincy column. If anyone wanted to find that he is current club captain all they have to do is click the sort button. Again with current players: the - show that. It would possibly be a case of WP:RECENT as well as in two years will we care who was still playing in 2007? We have to avoid complicating it with colours. That is what i did earlier on and the table looked confusing and complicated. Woodym555 21:06, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay fair enough! Accept all your points, so how far we off this being FL? (Everlast1910 21:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC))

[edit] Name of Article

Should it be changed to list of Notable Aston Villa F.C. players? Just a thought! Everlast1910 | Talk 00:29, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Given that only notable players are listed here and that most players are not, yes i think it should be changed as and when you can. Woodym555 18:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. "List of notable..." implies that all other Villa players are non-notable, which is patently untrue. If the lead states the criteria for inclusion, then List of Aston Villa F.C. players is fine, c.f. the existing featured lists for Arsenal, Liverpool and Manchester United. Oldelpaso 20:57, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I did see that they were called List of... . I don't think that there is a guideline but yes i do believe that some people may erroneously consider all other players inferior. I do believe that was Queen Victoria's worry for the Victoria Cross, that all others wern't brave. To avoid the complications of moving the FLC as well i suggest, (doing a U-turn here) that it should indeed be List of again. Given the fact that the norm is for it to be named List of, should it go in the uncontroversial proposals on the WP:RM page. That is the question. Woodym555 21:09, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been bold and moved it back. Oldelpaso 21:26, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion criteria

What are the criteria for including a player in this list? - PeeJay 17:28, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Generally it is playing more than 100125 competitive, first team games for Aston Villa. Special exceptions are made for early players (19th century) because of the difference in number of games. Some people with special playing records such as top goalscorer are included though. Generally these players have played over 100 games so are included anyway. The intro at the top of the page should explain all of this . Hope my explanation helps. Woodym555 17:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Everlast¹⁹¹⁰ 15:01, 25 August 2007 (UTC)