Talk:List of Armenians
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List of Armenians is within the scope of WikiProject Armenia, an attempt to better improve and organize information in articles related or pertaining to Armenia and Armenians. If you would like to contribute or collaborate, you could edit the article attached to this page or visit the project page for further information. | |
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This article was nominated for deletion on 2007-02-08. The result of the discussion was Keep. |
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[edit] Peck, etc.
Can we stop putting this nonsense up on this page? There is no reliable evidence that Gregory Peck had any Armenian ancestry, much less was an "Armenian" as this list's title says. Any of the sites like this [1] are exact copies of Wikipedia or of the IMDB entry. Neither are reliable because they are both user-submitted. Same thing for Michael Vartan. He may well have some Armenian ancestry but he is not Armenian in the eyes of anyone but Wikipedia users. He says he is a "Polish Jew" [2] with a Bulgarian father and a Polish mother. This is a list of Armenians, not a list of French/Americans with remote Armenian ancestry.
- There's alot of references saying he was, [3] but there mostly Armenian references but that doesn't excuse it, if you have any objecting please state otherwise he is considered Armenian or fits under the List of Armenians. Artaxiad 10:06, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see any reliable references there. I just see message boards, which are not reliable, and copies of either the Wikipedia entry or the IMDB entry. There is no "otherwise he is considered Armenian or fits under the List of Armenians" unless you have a WP:RS that says he is Armenian, which you don't. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.141.150.255 (talk) 10:07, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
Nobody's claiming that their 100% Armenian. Vartan's father is half Armenian half Bulgarian.Vartanm 10:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Right but this is a list of Armenians, not of Americans of remote Armenian descent (besides, we have a list of Aremanian Americans for Americans). There is a big difference. You don't see George W. Bush on a "List of English people" and indeed you wouldn't, because calling him English because of his remote English ancestry would be silly. I can understand Adrienne Barbeau, because she is half Armenian and has called herself "Armenian", but putting a guy who says he is a Polish/American Jew with a Bulgarian father and Polish mother on the list is biased. Same thing for Gregory Peck which is just hearsay.
- This is a general list of All Armenians. I dont know how far Bush's English ancestry goes. But Michael Vartan's is to his father. Thats very relevant. Just because he didn't mention his fathers Armenian background in an interview, doesn't mean he doesn't have Armenian roots.Vartanm 10:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Having "Armenian roots" is not the same as being Armenian. It's original research to say that someone is Armenian when they only have some kind of vague Armenian ancestry that they don't even mention. 24.141.150.255 18:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- His last name alone proves that his Armenian. Vartan is an ancient Armenian name. Google "Vartan" See if anything else comes up. Only Michael Vartan pages and Armenian. He's 1/4 Armenian. Vartanm 20:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Eh we don't list people by last names. People can be Armenian without an Armenian last name, and vice versa. Google "Michael Vartan" and Dutch and you get 23,800 matches.[4] That's more than the 700 matches you get for Armenian.[5] Does that make him Dutch? Anyway, this is silly. If you have a reliable source that describes Michael Vartan as Armenian (not his great-grandfather), you can list him as an Armenan. If you don't have a reliable source that says he's Armenian, then it's your opinion that he is, and Wikipedia is supposed to be based on what reliable sources say, not on what editors say.
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- None of the dutch quaeris claims him Dutch. but majority of Armenian ones do. [6]
- Vartan's father is 50% Armenian that makes him 25% Armenian. End of story. Vartanm 21:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- This isn't a list of "25% Armenians". The only sources I see are message boards and clones of either Wikipedia or the IMDB, both of which are user-submitted and not reliable. Vartan himself mentions nothing about being Armenian when talking of his background, so saying he is "an Armenian" is original research.
- This is exactly that list. The list of all Armenians. Armenian ancestry = Armenian. If the user wants to know more about his Armenian ancestry, they can take a look at his article. Which states that his father Eddie Vartan is half Armenian. Now user-submited??? Every pice of writing is user created. I'm pretty sure humans are the only intelligent creatures on this planet who can write. Vartanm 21:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- User-submitted means any random person can submit information to something, i.e. you and me, meaning not reliable. A reliable source is a source with a credited author. "Armenian ancestry" does not equal "Armenian", much like "English ancestry" does not equal "English" and "Black ancestry" does not equal "Black" (i.e. the one drop rule). I don't see the point of this discussion. Vartan himself has said nothing about being Armenian and neither has any reliable source on Vartan, so saying that he is Armenian is original thought.
- This is exactly that list. The list of all Armenians. Armenian ancestry = Armenian. If the user wants to know more about his Armenian ancestry, they can take a look at his article. Which states that his father Eddie Vartan is half Armenian. Now user-submited??? Every pice of writing is user created. I'm pretty sure humans are the only intelligent creatures on this planet who can write. Vartanm 21:36, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- This isn't a list of "25% Armenians". The only sources I see are message boards and clones of either Wikipedia or the IMDB, both of which are user-submitted and not reliable. Vartan himself mentions nothing about being Armenian when talking of his background, so saying he is "an Armenian" is original research.
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- Eh we don't list people by last names. People can be Armenian without an Armenian last name, and vice versa. Google "Michael Vartan" and Dutch and you get 23,800 matches.[4] That's more than the 700 matches you get for Armenian.[5] Does that make him Dutch? Anyway, this is silly. If you have a reliable source that describes Michael Vartan as Armenian (not his great-grandfather), you can list him as an Armenan. If you don't have a reliable source that says he's Armenian, then it's your opinion that he is, and Wikipedia is supposed to be based on what reliable sources say, not on what editors say.
- His last name alone proves that his Armenian. Vartan is an ancient Armenian name. Google "Vartan" See if anything else comes up. Only Michael Vartan pages and Armenian. He's 1/4 Armenian. Vartanm 20:46, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Having "Armenian roots" is not the same as being Armenian. It's original research to say that someone is Armenian when they only have some kind of vague Armenian ancestry that they don't even mention. 24.141.150.255 18:31, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- People can denie their ancestry. but that doesnt stop them from being who they are. Vartanm 21:42, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Right, but "Armenian ancestry" does not equal "Armenian". Again, this is a "List of Armenians", not a list of French/Americans with Bulgarian fathers and Polish mothers.
- This is a general list of All Armenians. I dont know how far Bush's English ancestry goes. But Michael Vartan's is to his father. Thats very relevant. Just because he didn't mention his fathers Armenian background in an interview, doesn't mean he doesn't have Armenian roots.Vartanm 10:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Lets take a look at your contributions shall we? [7] You're going around removing categories[8], adding Jewish ancestry [9] Seems like a you have an agenda of your own my jewish friend. Vartanm 21:12, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Is this one of your [10] reliable sources? All I see is Jewish POV. If you can use that I can use Armenian sources claiming him Armenian. Vartanm 21:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Another one of your reliable sources [11] Howard stern news archive. Very reliable and NPOV. Vartanm 21:26, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- Here is my source for Michael Vartan[12]
- That source says that his father is "French-Armenian", not that Michael is. There is a big difference. This is a "List of Armenians", not a "List of people with French-Armenian fathers"
- having an Armenian father qualifies as an Armenian. Vartanm 21:45, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- "French-Armenian", to be precise. And again, that's your opinion, not what the source says. Someone could easily say that having an Armenian father does not "qualify" someone to be an Armenian. The key is having a source that says the person is actually Armenian (which is what you'd expect to see on a List of Armenians).
- For example, Princess Diana is reputedly 1/64th Armenian. Does that make her an "Armenian"? Her two sons, as well? All their descendants as well? That's what original research is, and it's silly. Diana is British with some remote Armenian roots. That's not the same as being Armenian. Same thing for Vartan.
- My source says that he has Armenian ancestry. Which qualifes him to be on this list. 1/4 is different than 1/64. I never claimed Princess Dianna was Armenian.Vartanm 21:51, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- For example, Princess Diana is reputedly 1/64th Armenian. Does that make her an "Armenian"? Her two sons, as well? All their descendants as well? That's what original research is, and it's silly. Diana is British with some remote Armenian roots. That's not the same as being Armenian. Same thing for Vartan.
- That source says that his father is "French-Armenian", not that Michael is. There is a big difference. This is a "List of Armenians", not a "List of people with French-Armenian fathers"
- Here is my source for Michael Vartan[12]
- Another one of your reliable sources [11] Howard stern news archive. Very reliable and NPOV. Vartanm 21:26, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
But the problem is that it's all your opinion. For example, you just stated that Diane isn't Armenian because she's only 1/64th but Vartan is because he's 1/4. Well, how come you get to draw the line? What if I say that people who are 1/64th are Armenian as well? That's why Wikipedia users can't decide these things because it's all based on our opinion. You need a reliable source that says something. So if you want to list someone as an Armenian, you would need a source that actually says they are Armenian.
- Michael has an Armenian parent. You're making a big deal. As if this list claims his Armenian only. Some people have mixed ancestry. does that mean we have to remove all the half Armenians as well? He has a mixed ancestry that means he can be on Armenian, Hungarian, Jewish, American, Polish and French lists.Vartanm 22:09, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- He doesn't have an Armenian parent, he has a French-Armenian parent. He shouldn't be on the Hungarian lists because he's not Hungarian. He should be on the American list because he is an American, and on the French list because he is French (i.e. his nationality/citizenship). He can be on the Jewish list because he says he is. As for Armenian, same thing as Hungarian. An Armenian or a Hungarian is a national of Armenia or Hungary, not a person who has a grandparent who was a national of Hungary or Armenia. Yes, Armenians are also a significant diaspora and people can be referred to as Armenian who are not actually Armenian citizens, but that's not the case for every single person with a drop of Armenian ancestry, and I don't see why it would be the case here, since the person in question has never even referred to himself as Armenian, nor has been referred to as Armenian by any sources. Armen Dzhigarkhanyan is Armenian, Michael Vartan is not.
- "He doesn't have an Armenian parent, he has a French-Armenian parent." You dont make any sense. Just because some one claims his Jewish. It doesn't make him jewish. You can't choose your parents. If your father is French-Armenian and mother American-Jewish, you are quarter of each. That means you can be on all four lists. End of story. This list consist of Armenians and People who have Armenian ancestry. One can have an Armenian grandfather and be on this list. I'm sure you've heard of the [Armenian Genocide] a lot of Armenians fled their homes and alot of them married non Armenians. Creating 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 etc... Armenians.Vartanm 22:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- He isn't a "quarter American" (American isn't an ethnicity, obviously). As far as I can tell, his mother is a Jewish woman from Poland who became a US citizen. That's why she is referred to as Jewish (ethnicity/religion), Polish (place of birth), and American (nationality). His father's mother appears to be Hungarian, and his father's father is either half Armenian-half Bulgarian or full Armenian from Bulgaria. Again, it is only on Wikipedia that a French/American dual citizien with a Polish Jewish mother and a Bulgarian father of mixed ancestry is somehow an "Armenian". I've seen no evidence that such a person should be considered "Armenian", nor has Vartan himself said that he considers himself that.
- Oh now I see. You're trying to eliminate his Armenian side, that way you can claim him Bulgarian/Jewish. Nice very nice. So your claiming his mother is 100% jewish. Give me a source. his father is Armenian/Bulgarian [13] again "Vartan" is a 100% Name. That proves his grandfather from his fathers side was Armenian, who married his Bulgarian grandmother. They had at least two children Eddie and Sylvie. Eddie then married Michaels Jewish mother.Vartanm 23:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- The only thing about his mother relevant to this particular discussion is that she is not Armenian; as for her being Jewish, if Vartan calls himself a Polish Jew then presumably that's what his mother is, a Polish Jew, since his father is neither Polish nor Jewish (I think). Having an Armenian last name doesn't prove his grandfather was 100% Armenian, it's just a hint that he had Armenian ancestry. Anyway, my point is as before - Vartan is a French/American with a Bulgarian father and a Polish Jewish mother, which is exactly what he said when asked. How is a person who says this regarding their background become an "Armenian"?
- Oh now I see. You're trying to eliminate his Armenian side, that way you can claim him Bulgarian/Jewish. Nice very nice. So your claiming his mother is 100% jewish. Give me a source. his father is Armenian/Bulgarian [13] again "Vartan" is a 100% Name. That proves his grandfather from his fathers side was Armenian, who married his Bulgarian grandmother. They had at least two children Eddie and Sylvie. Eddie then married Michaels Jewish mother.Vartanm 23:08, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- He isn't a "quarter American" (American isn't an ethnicity, obviously). As far as I can tell, his mother is a Jewish woman from Poland who became a US citizen. That's why she is referred to as Jewish (ethnicity/religion), Polish (place of birth), and American (nationality). His father's mother appears to be Hungarian, and his father's father is either half Armenian-half Bulgarian or full Armenian from Bulgaria. Again, it is only on Wikipedia that a French/American dual citizien with a Polish Jewish mother and a Bulgarian father of mixed ancestry is somehow an "Armenian". I've seen no evidence that such a person should be considered "Armenian", nor has Vartan himself said that he considers himself that.
- "He doesn't have an Armenian parent, he has a French-Armenian parent." You dont make any sense. Just because some one claims his Jewish. It doesn't make him jewish. You can't choose your parents. If your father is French-Armenian and mother American-Jewish, you are quarter of each. That means you can be on all four lists. End of story. This list consist of Armenians and People who have Armenian ancestry. One can have an Armenian grandfather and be on this list. I'm sure you've heard of the [Armenian Genocide] a lot of Armenians fled their homes and alot of them married non Armenians. Creating 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 etc... Armenians.Vartanm 22:32, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- He doesn't have an Armenian parent, he has a French-Armenian parent. He shouldn't be on the Hungarian lists because he's not Hungarian. He should be on the American list because he is an American, and on the French list because he is French (i.e. his nationality/citizenship). He can be on the Jewish list because he says he is. As for Armenian, same thing as Hungarian. An Armenian or a Hungarian is a national of Armenia or Hungary, not a person who has a grandparent who was a national of Hungary or Armenia. Yes, Armenians are also a significant diaspora and people can be referred to as Armenian who are not actually Armenian citizens, but that's not the case for every single person with a drop of Armenian ancestry, and I don't see why it would be the case here, since the person in question has never even referred to himself as Armenian, nor has been referred to as Armenian by any sources. Armen Dzhigarkhanyan is Armenian, Michael Vartan is not.
[14] "Do you hate when interviewers get excited because you're French? The funny thing is I'm actually a Polish Jew who happens to be born in France. My mom is Polish and my dad is Bulgarian. I don't have an ounce of French blood."
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- An interview is not a reliable source. A person can denie or not mention his ancestry. But that doesnt stop one being who they are. 1/4 Armenian.Vartanm 23:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
- LOL I can't believe this anon user is making such a big deal out of this. 1/4 Armenian is still notable to be Armenian, even his last name is Armenian. Do you want a source for that too? Vartanm is right infront of you. 1/4th is big. George W. Bush's English roots are not big. Someone can be Polish Jew and still be an Armenian as well. He could easily be an ethnic Armenian born in Poland who practised Judaism...but this is not the case. Anyway Michael Vartan stays, even if he is clueless about his grandparents heritage he now carries. - Fedayee 03:39, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
- An interview is not a reliable source. A person can denie or not mention his ancestry. But that doesnt stop one being who they are. 1/4 Armenian.Vartanm 23:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Red names
In order to keep the list in Wikipedia standards, all the red names will be removed from list. If you think there is a person whos name should be included in this list and whom currently doesn't have a Wikipedia article. Please create the article first before you add the name to the list. Otherwise the "red names" are going to be moved to this section. Vartanm 02:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] link
http://www.armeniandrama.org/directory.php
[edit] Steve Jobs
- Steve Jobs, co-founder and CEO of Apple his adoptive mother is Armenian Clara Hagopian. Does having adoptive parents make you an Armenian? VartanM 07:49, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Matthew Ridge
I added Matthew Ridge to the sports list and it has been deleted. Don't delete it. Ridge is half Armenian. His father is Armenian and from Armenia. Ridge is his mother's surname. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.49.127 (talk) 07:56, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
- Is this the same Matthew Ridge? If yes, I can't find any sources confirming his Armenian ethnicity. If you know of any, please provide it. Thanks VartanM (talk) 04:47, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Additions to the list
There are innumerable Armenians in every field who have lived and served as subjects of the Ottoman State. They should also be included here, for respect to them and also to show that Armenians achieved most of the positive things in the Ottoman State, together with the Greeks, Jews and other non-muslim minorities. Mimar Sinan (Architect Sinan, Sinanyan) the architect of the so-called Blue Mosque in Istanbul, father and son Balyan's architects of the most recent Ottoman palace Dolmabahçe in Istanbul, Zildjiyan family currently living in U.S. makers of the best cymbals in the world, Agop Efendi (Lord Agop, Agop Dilaçar) the linguist who devised the new Latin Turkish alphabet commissioned by the founder of Turkey Atatürk, Turkish movie actors Kenan Pars and Nubar Terziyan, and many other Ottoman Statesmen, musicians and artists and artisans, not to metion the thousands of businessmen. Ervonitor (talk) 19:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
